Is Religion Good or Bad?

by **The Peaceful Territories** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:34 am

Last thread got locked down because it was in the wrong category, so here is it again, but with more poll answers.

After giving some of my thoughts on religion to an anti-theist on the Catholic Confessional Seal Part 2 - Supreme Court thread, he set up the argument that religion is an unnecessary thing and not good thing to follow. As a Catholic who feels religion is a good thing and important for society, I disagree with him on this point. Wanting to persuade him on why religion is a good thing, I wanted to take that argument somewhere else. Unfortunately, Nation States seems to not have an appropriate thread to debate about this on, so I made this thread.

The goal of this thread is to be an environment for interesting debates on whether religion is bad or good for humankind. This thread should stick only to this subject, so it will retain more of its own flavor compared to all of the other religious debates on this site. Discussing about abortion, atheism, and such means that the thread is starting to derail. "Religion" here means organized spiritual and moral guidance sponsored by deity worship that is seen positively by most people. It does not mean evil cults in which people are sacrificed.

To keep this orderly, here are just a few rules. Really, I should not be writing any down, but because people can get out of hand, these rules are necessary.

Rules

1. Act like adults, or at least young responsible adults.

2. No wrongful stereotyping of opposing ideologies. For example:
"Hurr durr Atheists are fat fedora wearing neck-bearded bronies that think they're higher than everyone."
"Hurr durr Christians are idiot creationists who can't even science."
"All Muslims are Arab suicide bombers."
"All atheists are anti-theist."
Those statements was not only offensive, but untrue.

3. No making strawmen.

4. Conduct these debates ethically and wisely.

5. Be prepared to back up information with reliable data, such as survey results, as anecdotes may be unacceptable. Anecdotes are, however, a nice addition to add.

6.Treat this seriously.

7. Use foul language in moderation; let's keep this professional.

by **Digital Planets** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:36 am

Oh, this is gonna get good.

But seriously, religion is neither good nor bad because you have the white knighters not being complete dicks and attempting to sexually coerce you with religion (which, I will say, has happened to me once), and then you have the dumbasses who enforce their religion on you because fuck you or something like that.

by **The Peaceful Territories** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:37 am

Digital Planets wrote:Oh, this is gonna get good.

Hopefully.

by **Bandwagon** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:40 am

I think choice No.2. We need religion but all governments should be secular and all schools should be secular. Religion belongs in the home and the place of worship.

by **The Peaceful Territories** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:42 am

Bandwagon wrote:I think choice No.2. We need religion but all governments should be secular and all schools should be secular. Religion belongs in the home and the place of worship.

That's why we have option 4.

by **The Pearl of the Philippines** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:43 am

Sometime,we need religion cuz theres a sexy chick we want to bang there.

by **The Scientific States** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:48 am

Neither. Religion has had bad effects on the world through war and persecution, but at the same time, it's also inspired great architecture, philosophy, and it can certainly help unify people, for better or worse.

by **Humo** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:54 am

religion is the greatest scam of all time. The reason for religion is so the people in charge of the religions can, a get money, and b control the people who believe in those religions so they will do whatever they want.

by **Jute** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:58 am

I liked the previous poll options more... (specifically "Religion is a good thing. It is the glue to our human society, and keeps our social, spiritual, and personal lives meaningful.")
Anyway, here a copy of my post in the other thread:

"Religion, as long as it doesn't cause you to be narrow-minded or too much of a fundamentalist, can greatly enrich your life and benefit society. It shouldn't be a burden to anyone. If it is, you shouldn't blame your religion as a whole, but take a step back and reevaluate your beliefs and maybe ask for help. If someone then decides to live without it, it wouldn't ever be a problem for me, as long as they act superior about it.

The economy magazine Forbes has a nice article explaining the general benefits to society, even for those who aren't religious: Link"

As for religions causing wars, another quote from me from the previous thread:

"I disagree with the claim that most wars have been caused by religion.
"Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed. "
Source: ForeignPolicy.com via Vox Popoli"

by **Camicon** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:08 am

Religion is useless. It divides people, sows false hope, and wastes time and energy. There is not a single charitable action that a religious organization can do that cannot be matched by secular organizations. Every charitable need that religious organizations fill could be addressed by secular organizations, if the former were to disappear.

Not only that, but religion encourages ignorance. It requires people to ignore reality, and to hold themselves back from accepting our best models of understanding, for rewards that cannot even be proven to exist. It makes people live in ways that are needlessly restrictive, and sometimes downright harmful, in order to please some mythical being(s) whose existence can never be proven (though the complete lack of evidence, and factually incorrect claims of it's/their existence, suggests that it/they does not).

Religion is more than useless. It is undeniably harmful.

by **The Peaceful Territories** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:16 am

Dang it, I got the numbers for the choices wrong. Pro-tip; don't do this late at night.

by **The Peaceful Territories** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:19 am

Camicon wrote:Religion is useless. It divides people, sows false hope, and wastes time and energy. There is not a single charitable action that a religious organization can do that cannot be matched by secular organizations. Every charitable need that religious organizations fill could be addressed by secular organizations, if the former were to disappear.

A. Not only that, but religion encourages ignorance. B. It requires people to ignore reality, and to hold themselves back from accepting our best models of understanding, for rewards that cannot even be proven to exist. It makes people live in ways that are needlessly restrictive, and sometimes downright harmful, in order to please some mythical being(s) whose existence can never be proven (though the complete lack of evidence, and factually incorrect claims of it's/their existence, suggests that it/they does not).

Religion is more than useless. It is undeniably harmful.

I would like to see some proof for points A and B. Also, how do you know secular charitable organizations will fill in effectively the gaps left behind due to the loss of religious charitable organizations?

by **The Peaceful Territories** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:20 am

The Pearl of the Philippines wrote:Sometime,we need religion cuz theres a sexy chick we want to bang there.

Are you thinking of fertility symbols and idols?

by **Jute** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:21 am

How can religion promote ignorance if so many scientists of the past were motivated by their religion to study the universe?

by **The Peaceful Territories** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:23 am

Jute wrote:How can religion promote ignorance if so many scientists of the past were motivated by their religion to study the universe?

That's what I am thinking. Also, can you cover in for me for debating that religion is good? I need to go to sleep.

by **Zottistan** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:24 am

Religion is a terrible waste of time, resources, thought and life.

by **Jute** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:27 am

The Peaceful Territories wrote:
Jute wrote:How can religion promote ignorance if so many scientists of the past were motivated by their religion to study the universe?

That's what I am thinking. Also, can you cover in for me for debating that religion is good? I need to go to sleep.

I'm not sure if I can do that alone, but I'll try, I guess...

Zottistan wrote:Religion is a terrible waste of time, resources, thought and life.

Religious people would vehemently disagree, and so do some scientific studies.
Religion is good for everyone, even for Atheists
Praying is good for your health
Doesn't seem like a waste of time for me, but others might disagree.

by **Nanatsu no Tsuki** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:29 am

As with everything, it depends on how it's (religion) used. If it's used to help the needy, to spread an actual message of love, to promote equality and respect, I think it's ok. If it's used to oppress, ostracize and propagate ignorance and hate, then it's bad.

by **Ashmoria** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:31 am

religion isn't good or bad. its human.

by **Jute** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:32 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:As with everything, it depends on how it's (religion) used. If it's used to help the needy, to spread an actual message of love, to promote equality and respect, I think it's ok. If it's used to oppress, ostracize and propagate ignorance and hate, then it's bad.

I mostly agree with you. It can bring out the best, but in some unfortunate case also the worst in humans.

by **Nanatsu no Tsuki** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:33 am

Jute wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:As with everything, it depends on how it's (religion) used. If it's used to help the needy, to spread an actual message of love, to promote equality and respect, I think it's ok. If it's used to oppress, ostracize and propagate ignorance and hate, then it's bad.

I mostly agree with you. It can bring out the best, but in some unfortunate case also the worst in humans.

I don't disagree with that one bit. It can indeed bring out the best and the worst out of people.

by **Jute** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:34 am

Ashmoria wrote:religion isn't good or bad. its human.

Agreed, it's more or less human nature. No one is born atheist. Here's a good short essay on that topic.

by **Omfostan** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:12 am

Depends on the practitioner.

by **Camicon** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:18 am

The Peaceful Territories wrote:
Camicon wrote:Religion is useless. It divides people, sows false hope, and wastes time and energy. There is not a single charitable action that a religious organization can do that cannot be matched by secular organizations. Every charitable need that religious organizations fill could be addressed by secular organizations, if the former were to disappear.

A. Not only that, but religion encourages ignorance. B. It requires people to ignore reality, and to hold themselves back from accepting our best models of understanding, for rewards that cannot even be proven to exist. It makes people live in ways that are needlessly restrictive, and sometimes downright harmful, in order to please some mythical being(s) whose existence can never be proven (though the complete lack of evidence, and factually incorrect claims of it's/their existence, suggests that it/they does not).

Religion is more than useless. It is undeniably harmful.

I would like to see some proof for points A and B. Also, how do you know secular charitable organizations will fill in effectively the gaps left behind due to the loss of religious charitable organizations?

Well, we've already got secular organizations fulfilling duties that religions are not capable of, like the Red Cross, so while I could waste a lot of time speculating about what might happen (were religion to disappear), that wouldn't do anything to make my point. Organizations like the Red Cross are a proof-of-concept; people don't need religion to charitable and help fellow people that are in need.

A) The two biggest world religions, Catholicism and Islam, are hierarchically structured. Person A takes orders from Person B, who takes orders from Person C, and so on. At the end of the day, everyone takes orders from their holy book (or whatever it is that constitutes their dogma and traditions), which is thousands of years old. These books make claims that have been proven, time and again, to be false. These books demand a social structure that is out of step (and behind) with secular society. Yet people have it beaten into their heads that religion is somehow above all this, that deities are beyond proof (ask a religious person to provide scientific proof of their god's existence and they will either butcher their answer by providing unscientific evidence or claim that their deity is beyond scientific proof). "Faith", that one magical thing a person needs to truly be religious, is defined as ignorant belief: "belief that is not based on proof". Any organization that holds it's followers in a state of social retardation, and requires them to structure their lives around ignorance, are absolutely encouraging people to be ignorant.

B)You know what's really terrifying? "Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years". The largest developed nation on the planet, and nearly half of it's entire population rejects evolution outright. Another fifteen percent believe that God is directing the evolutionary process. Those forty-six percent of Americans are saying "if it comes down to scientific fact, or religion, I'll choose religion". And this happens far more often than one might think, because religious doctrine makes factually incorrect claims all the bloody time.

You may have heard about the "God of the Gaps" at some point. It is a phenomenon wherein religious people look to something that science has not yet explained, and say "God did it" (or something to that effect). Essentially, it attributes all things currently unknown to a deity. Most of these people will resist any scientific foray that attempts to explain that unknown, because if science is able to explain it, then "god" because that much smaller and insignificant. This sort of logic is why religion is portrayed as being opposite of science; people don't like change when it concerns beliefs that are supposed to never change. So they inevitably end up denying some of it, choosing to ignore reality so as to keep their religion intact.

by **Occupied Deutschland** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:19 am

*sigh* This again?

Religion is neither good or evil, the statement is too general to be useful. Particular religions might be classifiable as such by widely held morality, but as a whole religion itself is too broad an umbrella to form any sort of useful classification and those who attempt it horribly misguided by either their religiosity or opposition to religion.