[Question] "Educational" nudity, PG13?

[Planeia]

I would like to pose a question about posting images or links to images containing nudity, however not excessive nor sexual in nature, rather for informative and educational purposes. Is such okay under the PG13 rule? For factbook and information purposes, I would like to post an informational diagram of the anatomy of Planeians, the alien species native to my nation.

Basically, the diagram would consist of the front and back of two Planeians, a male and a female. It may have indicators of each part of their bodies, and an average height reference. As obvious by now, they will also have alien genitalia that may look similar to, but definitely distinguishable from, human genitalia. In addition to serving as a remedy to curiosity as a proper factbook entry, the addition of such is necessary to let other players know to what degree of "compatibility" Planeians may have with other species, in the case of perhaps an interspecies relationship IC, between a Planeian and a human, a Planeian and a Draconid, etc etc. It would help them know whether our characters could... do stuff (only implied and not posted, of course!), and then if they can later have hybrid children.

Wikipedia uses such educational nudity as well in some anatomy related articles (until I get an answer to my question, I will not post specific links), and is still considered the number one source of information for all ages, in fact possibly having a much more suitable PG13 environment than NationStates.

So my question again: is educational or anatomy-related nudity acceptable on NationStates?

This is a question to the mods, so everyone else please hold off for a bit before posting so that I can get a swift answer... if that's okay with you

[Northwest Slobovia]

Since the moderation team is apparently doing normal Friday evening things, let me just repost this similar thread, which is only two posts:

The rules clearly say keep it PG-13 and no explicit sexuality, but what about non-sexualized nudity? Is it acceptable in one form and not another? For example would a photograph be a nono whereas a portrait or sculpture would be okay?


I ask because I want to incorporate a nude portrait into the national currency I'm making in photoshop which would be posted to my factbook.

To which Fris responded:

I'm gonna have to go with a quote.

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...

In other words, no, we're not going to break out a guideline and say "this is" and "this isn't".

If you want a private ruling without risk of being slapped for posting on the forums, file a GHR with a link to the photoshopped image.

That sounds like reasonable advice.

[Frisbeeteria]

That sounds like reasonable advice.

What he said ... about what I said.

[Swith Witherward]

I'd like to weigh in on this since it's a question that people often ask me. (The first thing I tell players is to check with Moderation... file a GHR if you're unsure if a drawing is taboo.)

"Wikipedia uses such educational nudity as well in some anatomy related articles (until I get an answer to my question, I will not post specific links), and is still considered the number one source of information for all ages, in fact possibly having a much more suitable PG13 environment than NationStates."

Wikipedia "educational nudity" is educational, meaning it's dealing with a hard fact (no pun intended) and not fantasy. If it were dealing with fantasy, we'd see Wiki articles about Ork or Dementor anatomy. Wikipedia can be banned by filters, also, depending on the provider and program etc. My stepdaughter's school bans it.



Because this question does come up so often, I'd like to ask Mods if we could clarify a bit. I really don't know if players take the time to file a GHR. I think I've only seen one come forward in Moderation to ask "the question" (it was the fellow with the Polandballs in bed).

The ultimate stopcheck should be deviantART, IMHO. Would they require the person to put a mature content label on their artwork? Sometimes mature content is classified simply as exposed nipples or even the labia majora defined through the panties, or seeing the faint form of the glans penis along with the scrotal bulge under tight underwear. Full nudity is certainly mature content even though the creatures in question might not be human and the intention was an anatomical lesson. If it resembles humans (furry fans know what I mean) then it gets slapped with the "mature content, please sign in" requirement. "When we discuss mature content we are specifically referring to deviations which contain images, subject matter, or other themes which some viewers may find offensive, distasteful, or otherwise undesirable to view or to read. The most common 'undesired' viewing material may include, but is not limited to, images containing artistic nudity (see details below), large amounts of simulated blood and gore, or generally violent themes." (devianART etiquette policy)

Okay, NS isn't deviantART, but we can at least acknowledge that they've had a heck of a experience in dealing with mature images and they've established their policies based upon that. I don't think we should expose NS to their heartaches. It's my humble opinion that it's better to host the images on deviantART and reference that art in a factbook link like so: Maxtopian Anatomy (mature content) than to risk somebody stumbling on a factbook and raising hell because they find the image undesirable to view. (To be safe, file that GHR to ask if the linked image is allowed to be linked).

This suggestion in turn brings up two more questions:

• The person I'm gaming with is too young to see the image/under 18. (It shouldn't be in a factbook then.)
• The image isn't mine. (You shouldn't be hotlinking it on NS anyway. We're responsible for what we post, and we take the hit if the artist replaces the image with a goatse to get even with us for stealing.)

From a gaming standpoint: the beauty of the story is in the discovery, and the discovery should contribute to the overall tale. Does it matter if my little lizard construct is physically compatible with my husband's hulking ape/cat/whatever alien? No. Maybe that physical incompatibility will be what makes the love story all the more poignant? Leaving things to the reader's imagination is often best (fade to black). If anatomy is that darn essential (genital description/procreation potential between characters) then work it out with the other player OOC and behind the scenes.

That doesn't mean I'm discouraging players from showing off their species' anatomy. One of the girls I used to game with was a particularly good artist and drew her species. They were quasi-humanoid but their pelvic area was smooth. She added black bars to their naval and throat areas because that's where the genitals were. Clever sense of humor, that.



Finally, there's the "how alien is alien?" question, meaning how far must one depart from recognizable references before one can get away with descriptions containing mature content? This one comes up a lot when I'm mentoring worldbuilders.

Most everybody on earth will understand if a player writes "their genitalia is similar to human genitalia". We know what to expect. Some writers list differences such as "the female's labia is not as pronounced and the vaginal opening is framed by skin bearing blue and purple spots which deepen to red when the female is fertile". I see this as a proper scientific approach but I'd leave it up to the Mods to determine if it's too much for NS.

An alien species might be extremely alien, however. Words fail to describe it because the physiology is too far removed from the average person's knowledge. "The male genitals are similar to a cephalopod of the order Teuthida only each spermaphoric organ is additionally divided into left and right hemispheres". Very few people can conjure up an image of that so an anatomical diagram is sometimes necessary. Because it's so far a departure from humans, I don't see it as something Mods would need to scrutinize. I may be wrong about that (always file a GHR when in doubt!)


So, after all that rambling... Mod opinion? Bear in mind this is just how I approach things when I'm worldbuilding (a skill used in both P2TM as well as II/NS). Other Mentors (and players and authors) have a different approach or might be much more lax. Someone asked me to write a "The Fade to Black" roleplayer guide a while back but I didn't think it would fly with you all. Is this something we could use? Do you get hammered with these anatomy/link/pic questions as often as I do?