How much reform can the new Pope get away with?

[Eleanor Ritas]

I'm not Catholic. But I've been noticing some things about this new Pope.

Apparently he fired a bunch of people in the Vatican Bank and started cleaning it up.

He's said atheists can be good people and he'd work with them to help other people who need it.

He's said that the poor are getting shit on pretty hard (I'm paraphrasing), and maybe Christianity should be doing what Communism and Socialism ostensibly do, which is helping poor people and creating a more equitable society.

Now, he's still against abortion, gay marriage, etc. And maybe his social-justice platform is just talk.

But just how far could this Pope go to doctrinally reform the Church into a less conservative and more progressive entity?

What if he came out tomorrow, called a press conference, and said:

"Okay, it's like this. God spoke to me last night. He said that judging the gays is a failure of love, and we need to welcome them as equals into all institutions of society, including the Church. He says that we're letting the poor get crushed by the wealthy and powerful, and it is destabilizing our world, causing vast human suffering. He says we should stop it. He says I should use the wealth and influence of the church to enact broad social and cultural change to bring dignity, comfort, and love to everybody, including Muslims, Lesbians, Trans people, and Bill Maher. I'm the Pope, and God told me all this. We start after lunch."

What would happen?

I think his Jesuit brothers would assassinate him, or at least there'd be a massive schism in the church with more conservative cardinals seizing control and tossing his ass.

EDIT: I have been advised my moderation to edit the OP to reflect that later in the thread I asked a question regarding what would happen if the Jesuits supported the Pope in this maneuver (as had been suggested by another poster), as asking that question in light of the other poster's information is apparently incompatible with having put forward a differing premise in the OP. My apologies.

What do you think?

[Geilinor]

The Pope hasn't reformed anything, he just reworded some of the statements previous popes have made.

[Montesardo-East Adanzi]

I think your poll is too biased and that whatever the new pope has done is good.

[Farnhamia]

The Pope hasn't reformed anything, he just reworded some of the statements previous popes have made.

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

[New Chalcedon]

The Pope hasn't reformed anything, he just reworded some of the statements previous popes have made.

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

Mhm. But how many of them have led by example, or defrocked Bishops who lived extravagantly at the expense of their dioceses?

[Trygg]

The Pope hasn't reformed anything, he just reworded some of the statements previous popes have made.

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

I don't follow any faith, but in my opinion, Pope Francis may be the best Pope in a very long time.

[Eleanor Ritas]

The Pope hasn't reformed anything, he just reworded some of the statements previous popes have made.

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

What would happen if he got serious about it?

Like, started using the wealth of the Church to fund micro-loan banks or started throwing heavy support behind political reform movements?

[Farnhamia]

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

I don't follow any faith, but in my opinion, Pope Francis may be the best Pope in a very long time.

He seems like a decent man but he's not done much beyond talking. I'm not sure what I want him to do, he is locked into the world-view of the Catholic Church and he couldn't have risen as high as he has without buying into it, but every Pope gives us fancy words.

[Geilinor]

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

What would happen if he got serious about it?

Like, started using the wealth of the Church to fund micro-loan banks or started throwing heavy support behind political reform movements?

Most Catholics live in secular countries, Church support of political movements could backfire.

[Eleanor Ritas]

The Pope hasn't reformed anything, he just reworded some of the statements previous popes have made.

What would happen if he went beyond words and started really policy changes, like a Papal edict accepting homosexuals as deserving of acceptance in the Church or something?

What if he started applying the wealth of the Church to help the poor in real dollar signs?

(Or lira or...I don't know what currency the Vatican uses. John Paul II Funbucks?

[Immoren]

Clearly we are on our way to the Reformation Part 2: Saved His Buddy Again

[Calisu]

Would be nice if he could at least get enough reform to deal with the pedophiles in the religion.

[Trygg]

And the last several Popes have been outspoken about helping the poor, not that that's actually helped the poor.

Mhm. But how many of them have led by example, or defrocked Bishops who lived extravagantly at the expense of their dioceses?

Well said. Pope Francis has taken a very active stance against bishops that covered up sexual abuse scandals. He invited victims to a private mass with him, where he accepted full responsibility and begged forgiveness from the victims. Other Popes have condemned abuses by priests, but they never actually said "Sorry", much less beg for forgiveness.

[Eleanor Ritas]

What would happen if he got serious about it?

Like, started using the wealth of the Church to fund micro-loan banks or started throwing heavy support behind political reform movements?

Most Catholics live in secular countries, Church support of political movements could backfire.

Hmm. Could he, by emphatic public preaching to believing Catholics, urge them to back more progressive social programs?

Would it have any effect? I'm told that Europe is not particularly religious any more in actual practice, maybe they'd just ignore it, or go "yeah, that's nice".

As Pope, if he really made a big deal out of it, could he sway enough Catholics to make a real policy difference in countries with a lot of Catholics?

[Trygg]

I don't follow any faith, but in my opinion, Pope Francis may be the best Pope in a very long time.

He seems like a decent man but he's not done much beyond talking. I'm not sure what I want him to do, he is locked into the world-view of the Catholic Church and he couldn't have risen as high as he has without buying into it, but every Pope gives us fancy words.

While it is true that he does give us fancy words, he has also lead by example. That's more than I expected when the Vatican elected him.

[Feroxi]

Francis is doing great things, and I'm not even a Catholic. By the way, the Jesuits, odds are, would support him. The Jesuits have been known as the mavericks of Catholicism for ages; they are a very down to Earth sect of the church.

[Eleanor Ritas]

Francis is doing great things, and I'm not even a Catholic. By the way, the Jesuits, odds are, would support him. The Jesuits have been known as the mavericks of Catholicism for ages; they are a very down to Earth sect of the church.

Hmm. I heard Francis is the first Jesuit Pope, and the Jesuits take a special vow of obedience to the Pope.

What if the Jesuits have enacted a long term plan to seize broader power in the church to advance a humanitarian agenda of social justice?

It's like infowars but for good conspiracies...

[Farnhamia]

He seems like a decent man but he's not done much beyond talking. I'm not sure what I want him to do, he is locked into the world-view of the Catholic Church and he couldn't have risen as high as he has without buying into it, but every Pope gives us fancy words.

While it is true that he does give us fancy words, he has also lead by example. That's more than I expected when the Vatican elected him.

I honestly don't see it. I'd like to see him expel some of the people who covered for and protected child-molesting priests, no matter how high in the hierarchy they are. I'd like to see him enforce some apostolic humility on the Princes of the Church, sell off the robes and red hats and let's all just wear simple cassocks. I'd like to see - and I know this is wishful thinking - him do more than repeat the "hate the sin, love the sinner" routine vis-a-vis homosexuals. Real acceptance, including recognition that we are, like our heterosexual compatriots, functioning human beings in every sense. I don't see him doing any of that.

[The Archregimancy]

I think his Jesuit brothers would assassinate him, or at least there'd be a massive schism in the church with more conservative cardinals seizing control and tossing his ass.

Hmm. I heard Francis is the first Jesuit Pope, and the Jesuits take a special vow of obedience to the Pope.

What if the Jesuits have enacted a long term plan to seize broader power in the church to advance a humanitarian agenda of social justice?

So.... the papacy of Francis is simultaneously the result of a secret Jesuit plot to advance a social justice agenda, and so radical that the Jesuits are going to assassinate him for advancing a social justice agenda.

I knew those Jesuits were a crafty lot, but who knew they could be quite so subtle?

[Pope Joan]

No reform is meaningful until nuns administer the sacraments.

The removal of entrenched sexism from dogma is necessary for the long term survival of the Church. John Paul II greatly undermined Vatican II in this regard.

[Farnhamia]

I think his Jesuit brothers would assassinate him, or at least there'd be a massive schism in the church with more conservative cardinals seizing control and tossing his ass.

Hmm. I heard Francis is the first Jesuit Pope, and the Jesuits take a special vow of obedience to the Pope.

What if the Jesuits have enacted a long term plan to seize broader power in the church to advance a humanitarian agenda of social justice?

So.... the papacy of Francis is simultaneously the result of a secret Jesuit plot to advance a social justice agenda, and so radical that the Jesuits are going to assassinate him for advancing a social justice agenda.

I knew those Jesuits were a crafty lot, but who knew they could be quite so subtle?

Only if he gets out of line, Arch. And after the Suppression in the 1700s, they had to become subtle.

[The Archregimancy]

More seriously, all Francis has done is shift emphasis and tone rather than doctrine.

The idea that the Church (however defined) should focus on the poor has been part of the Christian message since as long as there's been a church. The concept of universal salvation - as encompassed within his comments about non-Christians, including atheists - has been a recognisable part of Church doctrine since Origen in the 3rd century (it's more associated with Eastern Christianity, but Catholics have been rediscovering it over the last century).

So he's attempting to de-emphasise doctrine regarding human sexuality on the basis that it distracts from Christianity's more important long-term core values.

To some degree that's nice, I suppose. Better a Pope who emphasises fides, spes, et caritas than a Pope who constantly gets his vestments in a twist over who's sleeping with whom, and what to do with the consequences, while ignoring that his priests are sleeping with whom they shouldn't. And as this thread demonstrates, there are plenty of people who think that's a positive step. As St Paul once famously wrote, "and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".

But it would be a mistake to think that this emphasis on a tonal shift will lead to some sort of doctrinal shift. The best anyone can hope for under Francis is an end to clerical celibacy; and since clerical celibacy is a discipline rather than a doctrine - and there are already thousands of Eastern Rite and former Anglican married Catholic priests anyway - that's hardly the radical shift some people might think it is anyway.

[Eleanor Ritas]

I think his Jesuit brothers would assassinate him, or at least there'd be a massive schism in the church with more conservative cardinals seizing control and tossing his ass.

Hmm. I heard Francis is the first Jesuit Pope, and the Jesuits take a special vow of obedience to the Pope.

What if the Jesuits have enacted a long term plan to seize broader power in the church to advance a humanitarian agenda of social justice?

So.... the papacy of Francis is simultaneously the result of a secret Jesuit plot to advance a social justice agenda, and so radical that the Jesuits are going to assassinate him for advancing a social justice agenda.

I knew those Jesuits were a crafty lot, but who knew they could be quite so subtle?

I apologize, I should've been more clear. In my first post you quote above, that was my original thinking, but in the course of the discussion another poster put forward that the Jesuits would likely support him, so I altered my question in light of new information. I was exploring different ideas, even if they differed from my original supposition.

I recognize that changing one's examination of an idea in light of someone else's idea is not a very acceptable a thing to do on nationstates general. I will try in the future to insist only on my original claims and not adjust adjust the concepts I'm willing to entertain to include information put forward by others.

[Farnhamia]

So.... the papacy of Francis is simultaneously the result of a secret Jesuit plot to advance a social justice agenda, and so radical that the Jesuits are going to assassinate him for advancing a social justice agenda.

I knew those Jesuits were a crafty lot, but who knew they could be quite so subtle?

I apologize, I should've been more clear. In my first post you quote above, that was my original thinking, but in the course of the discussion another poster put forward that the Jesuits would likely support him, so I altered my question in light of new information. I was exploring different ideas, even if they differed from my original supposition.

I recognize that changing one's examination of an idea in light of someone else's idea is not a very acceptable a thing to do on nationstates general. I will try in the future to insist only on my original claims and not adjust adjust the concepts I'm willing to entertain to include information put forward by others.

Changing your mind and saying so is refreshing. You could, being the thread-starter, edit the OP. That might prevent the casual passer-by from misunderstanding the thread.

[Eleanor Ritas]

More seriously, all Francis has done is shift emphasis and tone rather than doctrine.

The idea that the Church (however defined) should focus on the poor has been part of the Christian message since as long as there's been a church. The concept of universal salvation - as encompassed within his comments about non-Christians, including atheists - has been a recognisable part of Church doctrine since Origen in the 3rd century (it's more associated with Eastern Christianity, but Catholics have been rediscovering it over the last century).

So he's attempting to de-emphasise doctrine regarding human sexuality on the basis that it distracts from Christianity's more important long-term core values.

To some degree that's nice, I suppose. Better a Pope who emphasises fides, spes, et caritas than a Pope who constantly gets his vestments in a twist over who's sleeping with whom, and what to do with the consequences, while ignoring that his priests are sleeping with whom they shouldn't. And as this thread demonstrates, there are plenty of people who think that's a positive step. As St Paul once famously wrote, "and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".

But it would be a mistake to think that this emphasis on a tonal shift will lead to some sort of doctrinal shift. The best anyone can hope for under Francis is an end to clerical celibacy; and since clerical celibacy is a discipline rather than a doctrine - and there are already thousands of Eastern Rite and former Anglican married Catholic priests anyway - that's hardly the radical shift some people might think it is anyway.

What if he took it further, or tried to? If he went so far as to publicly make radical doctrinal changes, could he get away with it? Suppose (just as a thought exercise), that he truly believed that God came to him and ordered him to make massive changes, turning tone into real policy?

Could he pull it off, or would the hierarchy of the Church simply not accept it and defrock him (or whatever happens to a Pope if the power structure of the Church wants him gone)?