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Federal UK?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

How should the United Kingdom be set up?

Super-federalisation: all the regions (Scotland, North-East England, West Midlands, London, e.t.c.) should have own governments
92
38%
English Parliament: an all-England government alongside Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, with federal UK government
62
26%
English MPs vote on English matters: status quo, except only English MPs can vote on English matters
13
5%
Status quo
27
11%
Re-centralise: take back powers from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and give to the central government
36
15%
Other (please specify)
12
5%
 
Total votes : 242

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Alf Landon
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Federal UK?

Postby Alf Landon » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:48 pm

With the Scottish referendum on independence just five weeks away, even though a vote to stay in the United Kingdom looks likely, there's talk about what the future setup of the UK might be. Even if the Scots vote to stay in, more powers for their parliament have been promised by the central government, and the referendum has resurrected old questions on what kind of powers the rest of the constituent parts of the UK should have; Wales and Northern Ireland also have their own legislatures and governments, but England - by far the most populous part of the UK - has no form of self-government.

All sorts of options are being talked about for a reformed setup of the country, and I'm curious to start a debate here - on the presumption Scotland votes to stay. I've put a few choices up in the poll, but they're by no means exhaustive. Here are a few suggested pros and cons for each of them:

*Super-federalisation - each region of the United Kingdom should have its own assembly and government. This would replicate the experience of devolution to the various regions of England, like the North-East, Yorkshire and the Humber, East, West Midlands, e.t.c. There would still be a federal government for all of the United Kingdom, responsible for federal matters.

Pros: A full England government might further an imbalance of power between itself - already by far the largest and most populous part of the kingdom - and the rest of the UK, so having England split would counteract that; an England government might also cover too diverse an area to be really representative.

Cons: The regions of England are artificial creations. Local and even English identities are far stronger than regional ones. Can powers really be devolved to areas whose populace feels no great connection?


*English Parliament - a parliament and government for all of England. As with super-federalisation, the only powers left to the United Kingdom government would be federal matters like defence and foreign affairs.

Pros: England, as its own country within the United Kingdom, arguably deserves its own single political power, much as what Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland enjoy.

Cons: As with pros for super-federalisation.


*English MPs vote on English matters - the basic setup of the United Kingdom stays the way it is, except those MPs elected to the UK Parliament in London from England get to be the only ones who can vote on matters that only apply to England, which could be many considering that the governments in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are increasingly responsible for sorting out their education, healthcare, some financial matters, e.t.c.

Pros: There is no great clamour for England or its regions to have their own assemblies - a referendum for one a few years ago in the North-East was handily defeated - so why push them? This could be a good compromise.

Cons: Could prove to be incredibly complicated, and doesn't address a desire for an English government.


*Status quo - basically, we've ignored these questions for so long, why not keep ignoring them yet longer?

Pros: Despite the constitutional problems with the status quo having been known for decades, the public by large is apathetic and not bothered, so why open up this can of worms when it will only cause complications?

Cons: You can only ignore this for so long.


*Re-centralise - devolving powers to Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland has gone too far/was a bad idea entirely; powers should be reclaimed from those parts and given back to the central government in London.

Pros: Well, only a pro if you're a believer in centralisation.

Cons: The Scots would probably resurrect William Wallace


Image

So, get voting!
Last edited by Alf Landon on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Land and Freedom
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Postby Land and Freedom » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:52 pm

"A federation of anarcho-syndicalist communes!"

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Olivaero
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Ex-Nation

Postby Olivaero » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:06 pm

I'm a big proponent of a federal UK, in my opinion a more perfect union would be what you have described as super federalization. But not based on superficial regions rather on largely historical ones, but really it's dependent on the local identity. It doesn't have to be historic. for example the midlands is not really a historic county but if you take a walk though there your likely to here people talking about the midlands as a place where people share common cultural tropes Birmingham being the defacto capital, things get more noticeable in Yorkshire we have a much more distinct parlance, but things are more different once again in Newcastle. These cultural shifts from region to region don't have a definite boundary but I'd say the people of Yorkshire are at least as different to the people of Scotland as they are to the people of London.

An English Parliament would be a bad idea for this reason. Your still conning the people of England out of the level of representation that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have and theyre is just as much variance between the English as there is between the English and the Scottish where the imaginary lines are on the map doesn't make a difference, the geographical proximity does.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:33 pm

Only if it keeps Scotland from leaving, but I doubt the "yes" side will gain a majority in the referendum.
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The Sotoan Union
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Postby The Sotoan Union » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:35 pm

Wow I'm not a fan of those colors.

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Angleter
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Postby Angleter » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:37 pm

I'd go with a variant of 'super-federalisation', whereby federal powers are devolved to (traditional) English counties and cities - which as the OP points out, have much stronger identities than regions, especially the artificial ones created for administrative purposes in the last few decades. These entities aren't necessarily too small - Rutland is larger than three Swiss cantons, and all but two traditional counties (Rutland and probably Westmorland) have more people than Prince Edward Island, and instead of setting up another layer of government at great cost to the taxpayer, it'd be largely a simple case of devolving to already-extant councils (albeit with some border changes - but Westminster's changed the borders of local governments a number of times in the last 40-odd years without much difficulty).

The main worry is how the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish would react to being put on the same level, so to speak, as Norfolk or Devon - but weigh that up against the prospect of more of the sort of envy politics between Scotland and England back around 2006 and 2007; that perhaps combined with further English complaints about only having a 'Grand Committee' rather than proper devolution; the imbalances to the Union created by an extraordinarily powerful English First Minister; or the utter outrage that would be caused by re-centralisation. The other concern would be how to ensure a healthy democracy in the counties and cities, rather than the pale extension of Westminster politics that local politics currently is - I think part of that would be remedied immediately by the devolution of actual, serious powers to local level, but a healthy local media is necessary too. Print news media I think would be more or less fine with a few tweaks that the market could probably work out itself, but broadcast news media would be a real problem. Unlike America or Canada (not sure about Switzerland), we don't really have a tradition of localised TV stations (well, we did, but then ITV all merged into one, and even those old stations were regional rather than county- or city-wide), although Jeremy Hunt was planning to do something about that back in his Hulture Secretary days - dunno if it's gone through, but if so, it certainly hasn't caught on yet - so that might be a blueprint to follow in that respect.
Last edited by Angleter on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nervium
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nervium » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:39 pm

Land and Freedom wrote:"A federation of anarcho-syndicalist communes!"


We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for a week, but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.

*Get's beaten by Arthur, King of the Britons, Holder of the Sword Excalibur*

Anyway, obviously the Mighty English should hold the peasants in line. *nod*
Last edited by Nervium on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:40 pm

Angleter wrote:The main worry is how the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish would react to being put on the same level, so to speak, as Norfolk or Devon

That's true, the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish might not want to be on the same level as a county.
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Angleter
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Ex-Nation

Postby Angleter » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:56 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Angleter wrote:The main worry is how the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish would react to being put on the same level, so to speak, as Norfolk or Devon

That's true, the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish might not want to be on the same level as a county.


The only thing I can think of as going towards remedying that would be greater ceremonial privileges for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland's governments, and perhaps an official recognition of them (and England) as nations within a united British nation (like the Quebec nation motion in Canada).
Last edited by Angleter on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alf Landon
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Alf Landon » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:08 pm

Angleter wrote:
Geilinor wrote:That's true, the Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish might not want to be on the same level as a county.


The only thing I can think of as going towards remedying that would be greater ceremonial privileges for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland's governments, and perhaps an official recognition of them (and England) as nations within a united British nation (like the Quebec nation motion in Canada).


They are already nations within the United Kingdom - the UK is actually a country composed of countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries ... ed_Kingdom

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Pandeeria
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Ex-Nation

Postby Pandeeria » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:10 pm

I would like a slow process for re-centralization.
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Nickel Empire
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Nickel Empire » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:11 pm

I'm Scottish descended so I choose decentralize.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:16 pm

Isn't the UK essentially a federal state anyway? As it is composed of constituent countries who have their own legislatures and make their own statutory laws?
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Alf Landon
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Postby Alf Landon » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:17 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:Isn't the UK essentially a federal state anyway? As it is composed of constituent countries who have their own legislatures and make their own statutory laws?


The big issue is England actually doesn't. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland do have their own governments and legislatures, but not England.

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Angleter
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Postby Angleter » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:48 pm

Alf Landon wrote:
Angleter wrote:
The only thing I can think of as going towards remedying that would be greater ceremonial privileges for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland's governments, and perhaps an official recognition of them (and England) as nations within a united British nation (like the Quebec nation motion in Canada).


They are already nations within the United Kingdom - the UK is actually a country composed of countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries ... ed_Kingdom


I'm aware of that. But my God, it'd need reiterating.
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United Provinces of Atlantica
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Provinces of Atlantica » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:16 pm

Personally, I think an English Parliament would make the most sense, though I'm not British.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:27 pm

No.

Federations promote disunity and more democratic bickering and porkbarrel politics. Just look at the US Congress...

The UK should stay as centralized and united as possible. It must not let small ethnic differences fracture and divide the country, weakening it. London must tighten its grip.

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United Provinces of Atlantica
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Provinces of Atlantica » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:58 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:No.

Federations promote disunity and more democratic bickering and porkbarrel politics. Just look at the US Congress...

The UK should stay as centralized and united as possible. It must not let small ethnic differences fracture and divide the country, weakening it. London must tighten its grip.

The US Congress is a fail because of multiple reasons, these being:

  • Lack of a multi-party system
  • Dominance by special interests
  • Bicameralism
  • Gerrymandering

Also, what's interesting is that of the European countries with secession issues (Spain, Italy, Ukraine, Belgium, UK). 3/5 of those countries are unitary states, one is kinda unitary state kinda federalist (UK) and the last one is completely federalist (Belgium). Also, in Belgium and the UK, the secessionist movements are not a majority, and in fact, in both Belgium and the UK their secession problems were somewhat solved (state reform in Belgium, Good Friday Agreement and Devolution in UK). Personally, I think this is good evidence for Federalism working better than unitary states.
Last edited by United Provinces of Atlantica on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:21 pm

Super duper federalisation. Remove country status from the four countries and split them into provinces.

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Alyakia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Alyakia » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:24 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:No.

Federations promote disunity and more democratic bickering and porkbarrel politics. Just look at the US Congress...

The UK should stay as centralized and united as possible. It must not let small ethnic differences fracture and divide the country, weakening it. London must tighten its grip.


watch infected mushroom start a civil war
pro: good
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Lalaki
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Ex-Nation

Postby Lalaki » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:24 pm

I'm not from the United Kingdom, so obviously I don't understand national sentiment there as well as our NSG Britons do.

Is this really a hot-button issue? Is that status quo not working?
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:47 pm

Lalaki wrote:I'm not from the United Kingdom, so obviously I don't understand national sentiment there as well as our NSG Britons do.

Is this really a hot-button issue? Is that status quo not working?

Scotland is having a referendum on whether or not to become independent and establishing a English parliament has grown as a sentiment.

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:03 pm

Alyakia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:No.

Federations promote disunity and more democratic bickering and porkbarrel politics. Just look at the US Congress...

The UK should stay as centralized and united as possible. It must not let small ethnic differences fracture and divide the country, weakening it. London must tighten its grip.


watch infected mushroom start a civil war


its not too late to prevent Scotland from breaking away...

the UK can still be saved. But only if London stops making concessions, its showing too much weakness...

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Herrebrugh
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Herrebrugh » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:42 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Alyakia wrote:
watch infected mushroom start a civil war


its not too late to prevent Scotland from breaking away...

the UK can still be saved. But only if London stops making concessions, its showing too much weakness...


Right. Jumping on the break and turning around will save the UK. I'm sure the politicians in favour of an independent Schotland would love your idea, because support for their cause would skyrocket if you'd get your way.
Last edited by Herrebrugh on Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NST Anarchist Interregional 1st Division
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Ex-Nation

Postby NST Anarchist Interregional 1st Division » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:44 pm

Anarchy in the UK. Specifically, Voluntaryist Anarchism without Adjectives.
Anarchy, Liberty, Equality...Voluntaryism.

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