My opinion
Do you think the Confederate Flag, is it a symbol of Southern Pride and Heritage? Or States Rights? Or does it mean racism and slavery?
by Republic of Coldwater » Thu May 29, 2014 5:07 am
by United commonwealth of ayrshire » Thu May 29, 2014 5:08 am
Republic of Coldwater wrote:The Confederate Battle Flag was the flag used by the CSA during the American Civil War. They fought for numerous reasons. While the flag we all know now (the cross with the star) was only used by 1/3rd of the Confederate Troops, while the other 2/3 used the Bars and Stars or the Blood Stained Flag, not the Cross flag, the Cross flag has been the most iconic. This has generated some controversy however. Some say that it is a flag of hate against blacks, while others say that it represents States Right, the culture and Heritage of the South or other things.
My opinionNote: I am not a racist, I have friends of many races
I honestly don't find it as an overly racist symbol. Sure, some racist organizations like the KKK use the Confederate Flag, but they also use the American Flag, and we aren't trying to ban the American flag. The cross meant that the federal government isn't intruding on them, and the stars represent the Confederate States. The meaning by just looking at the flag means that the federal government won't intrude on the rights of Confederate States, it has no references to slavery or racism. This makes a good flag to represent States Rights and rebellion. The South is also culturally different than the north, with different kinds of food, accents, slang, wear, industry. It would make sense for a flag to represent the south, which is distinctly different than the north. The South fought for numerous reasons, not just slavery. We have exaggerated the importance of slavery in the South's Cause to fight the war to the point where people think that slavery was the only reason why. Many Southerners were not happy with the Tariffs Lincoln set in (the South was agrarian, and newer, non-agrarian stuff had to be imported, and tariffs made them more expensive, some, yes, did want the continuation of slavery and did fight for that reason, while others were fighting because they want a different nation. I am not trying to say that the Confederates were not fighting to keep slavery, I am saying that slavery wasn't the only reason why the Confederates fought, there were numerous reasons.
Do you think the Confederate Flag, is it a symbol of Southern Pride and Heritage? Or States Rights? Or does it mean racism and slavery?
by Tel » Thu May 29, 2014 5:14 am
Lindengau wrote:It's a symbol of Southern heritage and states' rights. The racism is secondary nonsense that got tacked on later.
by Papait » Thu May 29, 2014 5:16 am
by Iron Confederation » Thu May 29, 2014 5:17 am
New Bazlantis wrote:Sometimes I swear all the Wilsonian idealists that couldn't cut it in the real world have retreated to NS where they don't have to deal with the harsh, but true, realities of 'grown up' international relations.
by Iron Confederation » Thu May 29, 2014 5:18 am
Tel wrote:Lindengau wrote:It's a symbol of Southern heritage and states' rights. The racism is secondary nonsense that got tacked on later.
It's an outdated emblem of a pathetic bureaucratic regime that ran on bigotry and the suffering of other human beings, it should be burned for what it flew for and forgotten for the cowards that flew it.
New Bazlantis wrote:Sometimes I swear all the Wilsonian idealists that couldn't cut it in the real world have retreated to NS where they don't have to deal with the harsh, but true, realities of 'grown up' international relations.
by Hotel Moskva » Thu May 29, 2014 5:20 am
by The New Lowlands » Thu May 29, 2014 5:21 am
Hotel Moskva wrote:The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.
by Tel » Thu May 29, 2014 5:23 am
Hotel Moskva wrote:The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.
by Papait » Thu May 29, 2014 5:25 am
Tel wrote:Hotel Moskva wrote:The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.
A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.
Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?
The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.
by The New Lowlands » Thu May 29, 2014 5:26 am
by Appalachian United » Thu May 29, 2014 5:28 am
by Hotel Moskva » Thu May 29, 2014 5:28 am
Tel wrote:Hotel Moskva wrote:The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.
A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.
Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?
The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.
by Papait » Thu May 29, 2014 5:30 am
by The New Lowlands » Thu May 29, 2014 5:31 am
Hotel Moskva wrote:Tel wrote:
A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.
Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?
The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.
Every nation has done bad things and endorsed horrid philosophies. Do you want to fly the American flag, when it was the one that murdered so many Indians? Do you wish to fly a Belgian flag when so many Congolese were killed under it? Same applies to the British, French, and the list goes on and on. The flag represents veterans and ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in, Southerners have the right to fly it in respect to their ancestors and heritage, regardless of what policies the nation endorsed.
by Sulania » Thu May 29, 2014 5:31 am
Tel wrote:Hotel Moskva wrote:The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.
A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.
Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?
The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.
by Ifreann » Thu May 29, 2014 5:32 am
by Papait » Thu May 29, 2014 5:33 am
The New Lowlands wrote:Hotel Moskva wrote:Every nation has done bad things and endorsed horrid philosophies. Do you want to fly the American flag, when it was the one that murdered so many Indians? Do you wish to fly a Belgian flag when so many Congolese were killed under it? Same applies to the British, French, and the list goes on and on. The flag represents veterans and ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in, Southerners have the right to fly it in respect to their ancestors and heritage, regardless of what policies the nation endorsed.
To be fair to the Belgians, most of the killed Congolese were murdered under the flag of the Roi des Belges, not of the Kingdom.
They have the 'right' to fly it, by all means. It just means that we'll assume they're bigots.
by Hotel Moskva » Thu May 29, 2014 5:33 am
The New Lowlands wrote:Hotel Moskva wrote:Every nation has done bad things and endorsed horrid philosophies. Do you want to fly the American flag, when it was the one that murdered so many Indians? Do you wish to fly a Belgian flag when so many Congolese were killed under it? Same applies to the British, French, and the list goes on and on. The flag represents veterans and ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in, Southerners have the right to fly it in respect to their ancestors and heritage, regardless of what policies the nation endorsed.
To be fair to the Belgians, most of the killed Congolese were murdered under the flag of the Roi des Belges, not of the Kingdom.
They have the 'right' to fly it, by all means. It just means that we'll assume they're bigots.
by Iron Confederation » Thu May 29, 2014 5:33 am
New Bazlantis wrote:Sometimes I swear all the Wilsonian idealists that couldn't cut it in the real world have retreated to NS where they don't have to deal with the harsh, but true, realities of 'grown up' international relations.
by The New Lowlands » Thu May 29, 2014 5:33 am
Papait wrote:The New Lowlands wrote:You want to say it wasn't?
i think betraying the natives that allied with you by killing them after they outlived their use.
Forcing thesouth to expensive bad quality stuff from you, when they want to buy good quality and heap products from england.
And acting like the savior of the black, while you don't really care about slavery.
They only opposed slavery to attract freemen (only those in the north, cause most freemen in the south had farms and even held slaves sometimes themselves) to fight at their side, in the war to force the south to buy stuff from them. Thats basicly why the north was fighting, not because of "freedom"
Thats in my opinion about as bad as slavery.
Because while some slave owners were absolutely terrible, there were also cases of plantations where slaves had it much better than the average worker.
by Alyakia » Thu May 29, 2014 5:35 am
Sulania wrote:Tel wrote:
A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.
Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?
The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.
Why is it that you seem to think that just because a culture did bad things means we must destroy everything that represents it?
No one is saying that slavery was good, and that's why we should keep the flag. No people are saying we should keep it because it represents a culture. All cultures did good and bad things. I could sit here and say that we should burn the American Flag because America is a hypocritical imperialistic nation. But, no.
We could sit here and say that what the South did was bad, but that is not proper cause for destroying a symbol which is meant to represent States Rights and an entire culture.
by The New Lowlands » Thu May 29, 2014 5:35 am
Hotel Moskva wrote:The New Lowlands wrote:To be fair to the Belgians, most of the killed Congolese were murdered under the flag of the Roi des Belges, not of the Kingdom.
They have the 'right' to fly it, by all means. It just means that we'll assume they're bigots.
Yes, yes, you got me on the Belgian one but what about all the other examples?
You have the right to fly the American flag, but since you do that means I am going to assume you are an Anti-Native American bigot.
Perfect logic indeed.
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