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Camels in Genesis not historically accurate?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Does the carbon dating evidence have any meaning for evaluating the Bible in a different way?

Yes, it shows historical distance
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No, it's not important
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I prefer alpacas
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Total votes : 120

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Maklohi Vai
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Camels in Genesis not historically accurate?

Postby Maklohi Vai » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:36 am

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ca ... 42100.html

TL;DR: New carbon dating evidence suggests camels were not domesticated until the 10th century B.C. As they are mentioned in the Bible at a time supposedly earlier than that, some say the discovery is a sign of the authors' distance from history. Others say it's inconsequential.

Biblical scholars have long been aware many of the stories and accounts in the sacred book were not written by eyewitnesses, and according to new research, further evidence of that historical distance has appeared in the form of a hump-backed camel.

New research using radioactive-carbon dating techniques shows the animals weren't domesticated until hundreds of years after the events documented in the Book of Genesis. The research was published by Erez Ben-Yosef and Lidar Sapir-Hen, archaeologists from Tel Aviv University in Israel. They believe camels were not domesticated in the eastern Mediterranean until the 10th century B.C.

And yet, the hump-backed creatures are mentioned repeatedly alongside Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, indicating the Bible's writers and editors were portraying what they saw in their present as how things looked in the past, says a New York Times article by John Noble Wilford:

These anachronisms are telling evidence that the Bible was written or edited long after the events it narrates and is not always reliable as verifiable history. These camel stories "do not encapsulate memories from the second millennium," said Noam Mizrahi, an Israeli biblical scholar, "but should be viewed as back-projections from a much later period."

Via National Geographic:

While there are conflicting theories about when the Bible was composed, the recent research suggests it was written much later than the events it describes. This supports earlier studies that have challenged the Bible's veracity as a historic document.

The biblical angle wasn't the focus of the recent research, though, just an after-the-fact observation.

The question over "phantom camels" is not new one, according to TIME magazine. Biblical scholar William Foxwell Albright "argued in the mid-1900s that camels were an anachronism."

In an opinion piece for CNN, Joel Baden writes that there was no deception intended on the part of the Bible's authors.

"Biblical authors," Baden writes, "simply transplanted the nomadic standards of their time into the distant past. There is nothing deceptive about this. They weren’t trying to trick anyone. They imagined, quite reasonably, that the past was, fundamentally, like their present."

A similar conclusion was reached by Smithsonian.com author Colin Schultz, who wrote, "these findings don't necessarily disprove all the stories of the Bible. Rather, knowing that there are camels where there definitely shouldn't be shows that the Bible's authors, working thousands of years after the events they were describing were supposed to take place, took a modern lens to these ancient tales."


To me, this isn't anything super surprising, so I'd be inclined to say it's just evidence of the authors' transplanting standards of past time. If it proves anything, it may just be that the Bible isn't an accurate judge of biological history, but I suspect many people guessed that already. What say you?
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Empire of Narnia
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Postby Empire of Narnia » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:42 am

Carbon dating is B.S.

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New Echo
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Postby New Echo » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:47 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:Carbon dating is B.S.


I googled your sentence and the first page was results from christian websites. I think that makes your claim illegitimate.

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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:48 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:Carbon dating is B.S.


Carbon dating is not B.S and the New Testament also doesn't make a mention of the sacking of Jerusalem by Rome. So make what you want of that.

But I don't think that camels and the Bible being non-mutual or historically inaccurate is really kind of ambiguous in the sense that different parts of the Bible were written at different times, much of it after the presumed death of Jesus Christ. So I'd agree with the idea that it's inconsequential, as most camels in Arabia are imported from Australia anyway (at least for racing).
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Postby The Ecumene » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:52 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:Carbon dating is B.S.

Yeah...no


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Postby Regnum Dominae » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:52 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:Carbon dating is B.S.

Got any proof?
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Postby Imperial Montagne » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:56 am

There are a lot of historical inaccuracies in the bible, especially the English versions. I presume it was just another mixup somewhere along translation, ya know?

I'm too lazy to actually read the article, so it may be brought to my attention otherwise.

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Empire of Narnia
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Postby Empire of Narnia » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:56 am

Regnum Dominae wrote:
Empire of Narnia wrote:Carbon dating is B.S.

Got any proof?


Unless they test every camel fossil in the world they cant prove how old the oldest camel is. By their logic if they tested a human corpse from the 50's they could say that humans did not exist in the 40's.

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Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:04 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Empire of Narnia wrote:Carbon dating is B.S.


Carbon dating is not B.S and the New Testament also doesn't make a mention of the sacking of Jerusalem by Rome. So make what you want of that.

But I don't think that camels and the Bible being non-mutual or historically inaccurate is really kind of ambiguous in the sense that different parts of the Bible were written at different times, much of it after the presumed death of Jesus Christ. So I'd agree with the idea that it's inconsequential, as most camels in Arabia are imported from Australia anyway (at least for racing).


Most of the New Testament can be dated before the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Only 1 John through 3 John, and Revelation, have been dated after 70 AD/CE, and all of those were written by the same author, who was probably in the Ephesus area. Furthermore, the letters were probably written more than a decade after the siege, and are much shorter and succinct than Paul's writings.

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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:05 am

Imperial Montagne wrote:There are a lot of historical inaccuracies in the bible, especially the English versions. I presume it was just another mixup somewhere along translation, ya know?


It is. Most of it really cannot be translated into modern English due to the substantial differences not only between the different languages themselves but also because the changes in words and how they are used.

Empire of Narnia wrote:Unless they test every camel fossil in the world they cant prove how old the oldest camel is. By their logic if they tested a human corpse from the 50's they could say that humans did not exist in the 40's.


Oh for the love of Christ. It's not about proving how old a camel is but about when it was first domesticated, i.e when certain animals stopped being "wild" and became tame and accepted the touch and responded to commands said by humans. Radio carbon dating is the most effective tool scientists have to determine the age of rocks and fossils up until 1950. Because the atomic age has released so much radiation into the atmosphere that surface rocks and bones buried today would not be identifiable.

That is not to say that it doesn't work for older rocks that haven't absorbed radiation i.e the fossils the scientists were studying.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:06 am

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:Most of the New Testament can be dated before the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Only 1 John through 3 John, and Revelation, have been dated after 70 AD/CE, and all of those were written by the same author, who was probably in the Ephesus area. Furthermore, the letters were probably written more than a decade after the siege, and are much shorter and succinct than Paul's writings.


But does it mention it?
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Postby Empire of Narnia » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:07 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Imperial Montagne wrote:There are a lot of historical inaccuracies in the bible, especially the English versions. I presume it was just another mixup somewhere along translation, ya know?


It is. Most of it really cannot be translated into modern English due to the substantial differences not only between the different languages themselves but also because the changes in words and how they are used.

Empire of Narnia wrote:Unless they test every camel fossil in the world they cant prove how old the oldest camel is. By their logic if they tested a human corpse from the 50's they could say that humans did not exist in the 40's.


Oh for the love of Christ. It's not about proving how old a camel is but about when it was first domesticated, i.e when certain animals stopped being "wild" and became tame and accepted the touch and responded to commands said by humans. Radio carbon dating is the most effective tool scientists have to determine the age of rocks and fossils up until 1950. Because the atomic age has released so much radiation into the atmosphere that surface rocks and bones buried today would not be identifiable.

That is not to say that it doesn't work for older rocks that haven't absorbed radiation i.e the fossils the scientists were studying.

Unless they have the bones of every camel t have ever existed they can't find out when it was first domesticated. If all they had was a camel bone from 1800 they would think the camel was first domesticated in the 1800's.

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Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:12 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:Most of the New Testament can be dated before the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Only 1 John through 3 John, and Revelation, have been dated after 70 AD/CE, and all of those were written by the same author, who was probably in the Ephesus area. Furthermore, the letters were probably written more than a decade after the siege, and are much shorter and succinct than Paul's writings.


But does it mention it?


Uh, no. Though, again, all but those books were written before Jerusalem ever came under attack, and the only author still alive and writing was in Turkey and "would rather not use paper and ink" when communicating with fellow believers.

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Postby -The Unified Earth Governments- » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:18 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
It is. Most of it really cannot be translated into modern English due to the substantial differences not only between the different languages themselves but also because the changes in words and how they are used.



Oh for the love of Christ. It's not about proving how old a camel is but about when it was first domesticated, i.e when certain animals stopped being "wild" and became tame and accepted the touch and responded to commands said by humans. Radio carbon dating is the most effective tool scientists have to determine the age of rocks and fossils up until 1950. Because the atomic age has released so much radiation into the atmosphere that surface rocks and bones buried today would not be identifiable.

That is not to say that it doesn't work for older rocks that haven't absorbed radiation i.e the fossils the scientists were studying.

Unless they have the bones of every camel t have ever existed they can't find out when it was first domesticated. If all they had was a camel bone from 1800 they would think the camel was first domesticated in the 1800's.


Still a better alternative then saying "God did it"

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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:19 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:Unless they have the bones of every camel t have ever existed they can't find out when it was first domesticated.


They can. Firstly, they look in areas where humans were known or perceived to have made permanent settlements i.e the Fertile Crescent in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) and look through the bones of animals present if they find any. If they do, they dig them up or take samples from them and send them to laboratories to date them and come up with a time period. They don't need all camel fossils in order to do this because camels were not domesticated at the same time. Finding fossils in areas known for the earliest signs of civilization or areas where early civilizations were already established and examining and dating the bones there is the best way of establishing what animals were domesticated and when. Of course, this is always subject to change, as the only constant within science is uncertainty. It's only ever considered fact until new evidence or discoveries are made.

If all they had was a camel bone from 1800 they would think the camel was first domesticated in the 1800's.


Of course. And until new evidence is unearthed proving this wrong, it would be considered fact. Take the recent discovery of fossilized footprints in the UK for example. Originally, archaeologists would have concluded that the first humans appeared on the British isles at a much later date but this proves that assumption to be false. But that assumption itself was only made based on the evidence that archaeologists had discovered at that point in time.
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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:20 am

The person copying the Mesopotamian stories slipped in some contemporary detail.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:20 am

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:Uh, no. Though, again, all but those books were written before Jerusalem ever came under attack, and the only author still alive and writing was in Turkey and "would rather not use paper and ink" when communicating with fellow believers.


Thank you for reaffirming my point.
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Empire of Narnia
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Postby Empire of Narnia » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:29 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Empire of Narnia wrote:Unless they have the bones of every camel t have ever existed they can't find out when it was first domesticated.


They can. Firstly, they look in areas where humans were known or perceived to have made permanent settlements i.e the Fertile Crescent in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) and look through the bones of animals present if they find any. If they do, they dig them up or take samples from them and send them to laboratories to date them and come up with a time period. They don't need all camel fossils in order to do this because camels were not domesticated at the same time. Finding fossils in areas known for the earliest signs of civilization or areas where early civilizations were already established and examining and dating the bones there is the best way of establishing what animals were domesticated and when. Of course, this is always subject to change, as the only constant within science is uncertainty. It's only ever considered fact until new evidence or discoveries are made.

If all they had was a camel bone from 1800 they would think the camel was first domesticated in the 1800's.


Of course. And until new evidence is unearthed proving this wrong, it would be considered fact. Take the recent discovery of fossilized footprints in the UK for example. Originally, archaeologists would have concluded that the first humans appeared on the British isles at a much later date but this proves that assumption to be false. But that assumption itself was only made based on the evidence that archaeologists had discovered at that point in time.

They still can't find it out because older bones could just have not been found yet. All this means is the oldest camel fossil they have yet found was not as old as the Bible. Until they find every camel fossil in the world and test them they can't prove that their were older camels than the one they tested.

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Postby Greater Mlytoria » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:44 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
They can. Firstly, they look in areas where humans were known or perceived to have made permanent settlements i.e the Fertile Crescent in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) and look through the bones of animals present if they find any. If they do, they dig them up or take samples from them and send them to laboratories to date them and come up with a time period. They don't need all camel fossils in order to do this because camels were not domesticated at the same time. Finding fossils in areas known for the earliest signs of civilization or areas where early civilizations were already established and examining and dating the bones there is the best way of establishing what animals were domesticated and when. Of course, this is always subject to change, as the only constant within science is uncertainty. It's only ever considered fact until new evidence or discoveries are made.



Of course. And until new evidence is unearthed proving this wrong, it would be considered fact. Take the recent discovery of fossilized footprints in the UK for example. Originally, archaeologists would have concluded that the first humans appeared on the British isles at a much later date but this proves that assumption to be false. But that assumption itself was only made based on the evidence that archaeologists had discovered at that point in time.

They still can't find it out because older bones could just have not been found yet. All this means is the oldest camel fossil they have yet found was not as old as the Bible. Until they find every camel fossil in the world and test them they can't prove that their were older camels than the one they tested.
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Postby Nazis in Space » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:13 am

Oral Tradition -> Turned into literary tradition starting circa 1000 B.C. -> oral tradition being the highly adaptable, changing medium it is, used contemporary material culture as a reference point -> Chronologically nonsensical camels in stories that have been shown to be ahistorical for a long, long time already (Basically, everything up until after Joshua is nonsense).

I'm not really clear on what's supposed to be so special about this? We've similar examples in Greek myths - the Myceaneans covered by Homer using Iron weapons when it should be Bronze -, so... Yeah.

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Postby Girls und Nation » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:34 am

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Postby Orennana » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:36 am

Empire of Narnia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
They can. Firstly, they look in areas where humans were known or perceived to have made permanent settlements i.e the Fertile Crescent in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) and look through the bones of animals present if they find any. If they do, they dig them up or take samples from them and send them to laboratories to date them and come up with a time period. They don't need all camel fossils in order to do this because camels were not domesticated at the same time. Finding fossils in areas known for the earliest signs of civilization or areas where early civilizations were already established and examining and dating the bones there is the best way of establishing what animals were domesticated and when. Of course, this is always subject to change, as the only constant within science is uncertainty. It's only ever considered fact until new evidence or discoveries are made.



Of course. And until new evidence is unearthed proving this wrong, it would be considered fact. Take the recent discovery of fossilized footprints in the UK for example. Originally, archaeologists would have concluded that the first humans appeared on the British isles at a much later date but this proves that assumption to be false. But that assumption itself was only made based on the evidence that archaeologists had discovered at that point in time.

They still can't find it out because older bones could just have not been found yet. All this means is the oldest camel fossil they have yet found was not as old as the Bible. Until they find every camel fossil in the world and test them they can't prove that their were older camels than the one they tested.

No, they can't. But equally, they can't prove there weren't camels at that time. Of the two, proving there weren't camels is the one that's not possible ever. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.
IMO, as a Christian with a strong basis in science (and currently studying archaeology so I know a lot about radiocarbon dating) there is no doubt that the Bible, while not 100% true, contains truth throughout. For example, God didn't create the world in six days. That story was made up to demonstrate the truth of God as creator. I do believe, however, that anything mentioned after the flood actually happened. So if it says there were camels in Biblical times, there were camels in Biblical times. The fact that the Bible is currently the only evidence we have does not mean it's not true.
As for the sacking of Jerusalem, as mentioned above only a very small number of New Testament books were written after the event, and it wasn't mentioned because it simply wasn't relevant to the recipients of the letters or the story the author was trying to tell.
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Postby Imperium Sidhicum » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:45 am

Well, the Bible is really a compilation of multiple sources, many of which are in turn translations of earlier sources. So it's nothing unusual for a later author/editor to project aspects of life familiar to his society onto his work. In the times when the Bible was composed, the intended message mattered more than historical accuracy.

By analogy, look at illustrations of Medieval Bibles. The images show Biblical kings dressed in contemporary royal attire, the Roman legionnaires present at the crucifixion of Christ are depicted as Medieval knights with contemporary armor and weapons, the Jews are likewise shown in contemporary Jewish attire with their distinctive pointed hats. Images in a book pertaining to the Baltic Crusades depict the Nordic heathens of the Baltic region as dark-skinned Saracens. The goal of these illustrations was to convey a message that the reader could readily understand without having extensive knowledge in the history and culture of foreign lands, an understandable approach considering the scarcity of first-hand sources in a time when literacy and books were precious luxuries. To a Medieval European without exposure to Mongols and their ways, a culture-specific term like khan would mean nothing, so a book pertaining to Mongols would simply call a khan "king of the Mongols". The author would not go into detail when depicting or describing specific Mongol equipment like the short compound bows or distinct armor - even if he had first-hand knowledge of it, his readers most likely wouldn't, so he simply would proceed to depict Mongol warriors as his European contemporaries, knights and men-at-arms wearing plate or mail armor and shooting ordinary longbows, at most depicting them as scimitar-wielding Saracens in appearance to emphasize their difference.

The same is likely true for the author of this particular passage in the Bible - he lived in a period when camels were commonplace in his region, and simply couldn't imagine a world without them.

Of course, there's always another possibility that camels were domesticated earlier than thought. If so, it wouldn't be the first time that new discoveries push back the domestication date of a common domestic animal. The Old Testament is generally a reliable source on ancient Near Eastern history, although it is obviously heavily entwined with legend and later additions, as was common back in the day when people weren't yet concerned with altering a historical source.
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Postby Ashmoria » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:07 am

geez of course there were camels.

what they are saying is that there were no DOMESTICATED camels before 1000bc. that is a harder thing to pinpoint but anthropologists/archeologists can probably be pretty sure about it within 1000 years. (just a guess, im neither of those things)
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Postby Gallup » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:30 am

HOLY SHET SOMTHIN IN TEH BIBEL IS WRONG EVERYTHING I KNOW IS A LIE!

In a more serious note, Genesis is pretty much one big parable.
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