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Objections to monarchy

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Distruzio
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Objections to monarchy

Postby Distruzio » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:32 pm

Hi there! I am DIstruzio, NSG's resident Eastern Orthodox Libertarian Monarchist. I used to refer to myself as an anarcho-monarchist but after a conversation with my Bishop and after years of conversations on this site, I've decided that it is, perhaps, better to identify myself in a less confusing manner. Folks tended to focus on preconceived notions of anarchy and monarchy rather than on anything I actually said. Which, of itself, limited my ability to respond to people. So... fuck that noise. Libertarian monarchy it is.

I'm anti-statist. Not astatist. I reject the State. I don't pretend it doesn't exist.

But an identifier change isn't the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to address, as best I can, common attacks by the democratist (an advocate for democratic governance) against monarchy.

First and foremost, we must recall that some criticisms of monarchy equally apply to democracy itself. Although democracy allows the people some influence over the government, they do not and cannot actually run it. Even popularly elected governments are governments of rule from above. Thus the common trope of "authoritarian" governance being absent from a democracy rings rather flaccid. There is, in reality, no difference of substance between an aristocratic government and a democratic government, only degree.

Along this same vein of inane bleating against monarchy comes the condemnation of monarchy as a divisive symbol of inequality. The democratist, in making this critique, creates an idealistic society in which every individual enjoys the exact same status and from this status derives the same right, if not the same ability, to rise to the highest of political offices. But this stretches the actual meaning of democracy from a manner and method of choosing political authority to an egalitarian social ethos. A pipedream. It also creates a false dichotomy for monarchy need not obstruct easy relations among persons of different occupations and backgrounds; a suspicious egalitarianism is likelier to do that. In no society can all persons have the same status.

What the democratist actually complains about in this most common of tropes is divisiveness. But, I must ask, what is not divisive about an election? Are there not winners and losers? Is there not a victorious majority and an expropriated minority? A monarch, however, cannot symbolize defeat to supporters of other candidates, for there were none. He has no further political opportunities or ambitions except to perform his duties as monarch and perform them well in order that he might maintain the good name of his dynasty. A monarch stands neutral above partisan party politics. Obviously, therefore, a monarch is preservative rather than active. He secures his peoples freedoms.

Alongside a monarch comes, by necessity, the nobility - the aristocratic elite. They can provide an alternative to sheer wealth or notoriety as a source of distinction and so dilute the fawning over celebrities characteristic of modern democracies. If anything this rather disputes the claim of divisiveness in monarchy - it goes further still. Within this lens we see that it is democracy, not monarchy, that breeds a divided population.

I'm reminded of the words of H.L. Mencken:

"No educated man, stating plainly the elementary notions that every educated man holds about the matters that principally concern government, could be elected to office in a democratic state, save perhaps by a miracle. … It has become a psychic impossibility for a gentleman to hold office under the Federal Union, save by a combination of miracles that must tax the resourcefulness even of God. — the man of native integrity is either barred from the public service altogether, or subjected to almost irresistible temptations after he gets in."


For, the critiques continue... what if the monarch is a nutbag - a manifest danger to society? Well... what of a regency, popular among the people, to guard them against cruelty and incompetence until the next heir is ready? And, I ask, how is this behavior avoided in the modern and liberal democracies? A democratist politician is elevated not because of birthright or ability but, on the contrary, because of his incompetence. His lack of knowledge. A politician cannot be knowledgeable of economics or he cannot win office. He cannot be morally stalwart or he cannot win office. He cannot be anything but a liar, a grafter, a lickspittle, a politician. Otherwise, he does not win office.

It is true that there is, throughout history, a wonderful tradition of amazing statesmen who were public-spirited, well educated, and morally stalwart. They did not meet the measure of the buffoons characterizing modern liberal democracies. Why not? Because these statesmen existed and thrived in relatively less democratic nations. It seems that, in reality, Gresham's Law guides the political winds today.

So... for those who would argue that certain monarchies exist alongside democratic institutions I must point out that, among these nations, the monarch serves to dilute and otherwise guard against the democratic tendencies of the nation. Even in America there exists a non-elected elite for the sole purpose of protecting and ensuring the liberty of the population. This, I believe, is the utilitarian reason for supporting a monarchy. Beyond mere continuity and identity of the culture and heritage of the nation.

What say you, NSG? Are there critiques of monarchy from a democratic perspective that I have missed? Have I been unconvincing?
Last edited by Distruzio on Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:39 pm

"No educated man, stating plainly the elementary notions that every educated man holds about the matters that principally concern government, could be elected to office in a democratic state, save perhaps by a miracle.


Richard Nixon, anyone?
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Postby Alqania » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:40 pm

How can you want monarchy if you don't want a state?
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:42 pm

Alqania wrote:How can you want monarchy if you don't want a state?

He wants a government, but not a state.
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Postby Towson » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:43 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Alqania wrote:How can you want monarchy if you don't want a state?

He wants a government, but not a state.


Then how can there be a Government without a State?
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Postby Zottistan » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:43 pm

First and foremost, we must recall that some criticisms of monarchy equally apply to democracy itself. Although democracy allows the people some influence over the government, they do not and cannot actually run it. Even popularly elected governments are governments of rule from above. Thus the common trope of "authoritarian" governance being absent from a democracy rings rather flaccid. There is, in reality, no difference of substance between an aristocratic government and a democratic government, only degree.

Degree matters. I'd rather be slightly chilly than freezing to death.

Democracies (usually) have set terms a group serves for. If a group wishes to be elected again, they must behave in a respectful manner to their citizens during this term. Monarchs also have to hold a certain level of respect for their subordinates, or there'll be revolution, but they can usually get away with much more, as they're relying on their people not hating them too much, as opposed to relying on them liking them.

A democratic government is likely to be more respectful to non-governing parties, so it's in the interests of non-governing parties to be democrats.
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:44 pm

Towson wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:He wants a government, but not a state.


Then how can there be a Government without a State?

Pretty simple, really. We have municipal governments but they aren't states.
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:46 pm

Distruzio wrote:Even in America there exists a non-elected elite for the sole purpose of protecting and ensuring the liberty of the population.

BTW, are you talking about the Supreme Court?
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Postby Mavorpen » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:47 pm

"Monarchy isn't as shitty as you think" isn't enough of an argument to convince me it isn't shitty.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Postby Distruzio » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:48 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Distruzio wrote:Even in America there exists a non-elected elite for the sole purpose of protecting and ensuring the liberty of the population.

BTW, are you talking about the Supreme Court?


Yes. I am.
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Postby Mavorpen » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:51 pm

Distruzio wrote:H
So... I must point out to the democratist on NSG... if democracy be so superior to monarchy why, then, does monarchy perpetuate and thrive? Its mere existence disputes your claims against it.

Really? I guess the existence of North Korea disputes my claim that their system is shitty.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:52 pm

Distruzio wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:BTW, are you talking about the Supreme Court?


Yes. I am.

The judges are appointed by democratically elected representatives, they aren't hereditary, and their highest purpose is to serve a Constitution that protects the rights of the marginalized, not themselves. I really don't see how an hereditary judiciary would be especially good, especially if its highest good were itself.
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Postby Alqania » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:52 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Towson wrote:
Then how can there be a Government without a State?

Pretty simple, really. We have municipal governments but they aren't states.


Wouldn't an independent municipal government be a city-state though?
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Postby Distruzio » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:54 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Distruzio wrote:H
So... I must point out to the democratist on NSG... if democracy be so superior to monarchy why, then, does monarchy perpetuate and thrive? Its mere existence disputes your claims against it.

Really? I guess the existence of North Korea disputes my claim that their system is shitty.


Actually... it does dispute the validity of an absolutist state. So unless you're making that claim, then you've nothing to fret over.
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:55 pm

Alqania wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Pretty simple, really. We have municipal governments but they aren't states.


Wouldn't an independent municipal government be a city-state though?

Not if property rights trumped it.
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Postby Distruzio » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:56 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
Yes. I am.

The judges are appointed by democratically elected representatives, they aren't hereditary, and their highest purpose is to serve a Constitution that protects the rights of the marginalized, not themselves. I really don't see how an hereditary judiciary would be especially good, especially if its highest good were itself.


Regardless, they lie beyond the oversight of the public electorate. Their appointments are for life. Their highest purpose is to serve a document as they, individually, interpret it to best protect the rights of the marginalized. You're connecting dots where there are none and ignoring dots where there are.
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Postby Mavorpen » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:56 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Really? I guess the existence of North Korea disputes my claim that their system is shitty.


Actually... it does dispute the validity of an absolutist state. So unless you're making that claim, then you've nothing to fret over.

Perhaps you might want to read the post over. You clearly missed the point.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Postby Distruzio » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:57 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
Actually... it does dispute the validity of an absolutist state. So unless you're making that claim, then you've nothing to fret over.

Perhaps you might want to read the post over. You clearly missed the point.


No. I caught it. You missed mine. If you're going to ignore my point from the OP, then I've every right to ignore yours and post something inane... just like you.
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Postby Alqania » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:58 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Alqania wrote:
Wouldn't an independent municipal government be a city-state though?

Not if property rights trumped it.


? Could you give an example of how that would work?
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Postby Mavorpen » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:59 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Perhaps you might want to read the post over. You clearly missed the point.


No. I caught it. You missed mine. If you're going to ignore my point from the OP, then I've every right to ignore yours and post something inane... just like you.

Well it certainly didn't take long for you to bring out the "I know you are but what am I?"
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Postby Abasha » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:00 pm

You are not unconvincing at all! I was a monarchist and I will continue to be one, no matter what any has to say about it. I helped a friend in high school write a 300 page report FOR a just-monarchy. I say that you have addressed the most common points that I hear from people, so good work and thank you!
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Postby Mavorpen » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:02 pm

Abasha wrote:You are not unconvincing at all! I was a monarchist and I will continue to be one, no matter what any has to say about it. I helped a friend in high school write a 300 page report FOR a just-monarchy. I say that you have addressed the most common points that I hear from people, so good work and thank you!

If you're going to lie, make it at least SOMEWHAT convincing.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:02 pm

Alqania wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Not if property rights trumped it.


? Could you give an example of how that would work?

Your right to your land trumps the law. Therefore if you are beating the shit out of someone on your land, the government cannot say anything because it's your land.
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Postby Ceroulia » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:03 pm

Abasha wrote:You are not unconvincing at all! I was a monarchist and I will continue to be one, no matter what any has to say about it. I helped a friend in high school write a 300 page report FOR a just-monarchy. I say that you have addressed the most common points that I hear from people, so good work and thank you!


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Postby Distruzio » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:03 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
No. I caught it. You missed mine. If you're going to ignore my point from the OP, then I've every right to ignore yours and post something inane... just like you.

Well it certainly didn't take long for you to bring out the "I know you are but what am I?"


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