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The Economist Says Affirmative Action Is Bad Unsurprise

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The Whispers
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The Economist Says Affirmative Action Is Bad Unsurprise

Postby The Whispers » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:04 am

The Economist wrote:Time to scrap affirmative action

ABOVE the entrance to America’s Supreme Court four words are carved: “Equal justice under law”. The court is pondering whether affirmative action breaks that promise. The justices recently accepted a case concerning a vote in Michigan that banned it, and will soon rule on whether the University of Texas’s race-conscious admissions policies are lawful. The question in both cases is as simple as it is divisive: should government be colour-blind?

America is one of many countries where the state gives a leg-up to members of certain racial, ethnic, or other groups by holding them to different standards. The details vary. In some countries, the policy applies only to areas under direct state control, such as public-works contracts or admission to public universities. In others, private firms are also obliged to take account of the race of their employees, contractors and even owners. But the effects are strikingly similar around the world (see article).

Many of these policies were put in place with the best of intentions: to atone for past injustices and ameliorate their legacy. No one can deny that, for example, blacks in America or dalits in India (members of the caste once branded “untouchable”) have suffered grievous wrongs, and continue to suffer discrimination. Favouring members of these groups seems like a quick and effective way of making society fairer.

Most of these groups have made great progress. But establishing how much credit affirmative action can take is hard, when growth also brings progress and some of the good—for example the confidence-boosting effect of creating prominent role models for a benighted group—is intangible. And it is impossible to know how a targeted group would have got on without this special treatment. Malays are three times richer in Singapore, where they do not get preferences, than in next-door Malaysia, where they do. At the same time, the downside of affirmative action has become all too apparent.

(Loads) More Words Etc. Here

So, surprising as this may sound, a journal writen largely for middle class white people says that Affirmative Action is a Bad Thing. I dunno, seems to me like the best way to get people comfortable with the idea of the currently underprivelaged being in certain places, and the usual people who complain about not getting into uni "because of Affirmative Action" are people who are at the shitty end of the intellectual wedge.

But you might have a different opinion, indeed I'm sure many of you will. So let fly with your words like it's about to be argument bukkake on this thread's face, etc.

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Postby Wamitoria » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:10 am

Inb4 somebody claims that they didn't get [insert job here] because of affirmative action.

But yeah, The Economist saying this sort of thing is about as surprising as Newsweek issuing a provacative bullshit cover to drum up controversy or Time pretending beltway insiders are actually intelligent.

Affirmative Action is still necessary in certain situations. Considering race as a factor in say, admission to universities, is perfectly fine in my book.
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:14 am

Two things I must say first: What American calls college "uni"? and Ohmygod argument bukkake is the best description of an NSG thread ever.

Now that that's out of the way. Here we go again. Affirmative Action is logically inconsistent and engenders more hatred than it erases. Also, according to this rather old deal anyways, it's actively skewing college acceptance rates against Asians. I could very well be missing something, but that seems like a problem from brief analysis.
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Nazi France
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Postby Nazi France » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:16 am

The government should be completely color-blind and not distinguish between races. I mean, whatever happened to "All men are created equal"? The message that affirmative action gives is that minority groups are inferior and that they therefore need government assistance to get anywhere in life.

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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:20 am

Nazi France wrote:The government should be completely color-blind and not distinguish between races. I mean, whatever happened to "All men are created equal"? The message that affirmative action gives is that minority groups are inferior and that they therefore need government assistance to get anywhere in life.

No, it says that minorities have been discriminated against and that the government is helping by leveling the playing field so that all people are treated equally.
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Postby Nazi France » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:24 am

Farnhamia wrote:No, it says that minorities have been discriminated against and that the government is helping by leveling the playing field so that all people are treated equally.

So it treats people unequally so that they will be treated equally? Makes sense.

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Postby greed and death » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:25 am

The way to stop discriminating based on race is to stop discriminating based on race

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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:26 am

Nazi France wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:No, it says that minorities have been discriminated against and that the government is helping by leveling the playing field so that all people are treated equally.

So it treats people unequally so that they will be treated equally? Makes sense.

No. In employment, it says that hiring should reflect the community's make-up. It does not require less qualified people to be hired, however. In education, quotas were struck down long ago. Why do you hate freedom and equality?
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Postby Zweite Alaje » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:39 am

Affrimative Action is bad from a purely economic viewpoint, so is minimum wage.
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Postby The Electoral College » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:43 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Nazi France wrote:So it treats people unequally so that they will be treated equally? Makes sense.

No. In employment, it says that hiring should reflect the community's make-up. It does not require less qualified people to be hired, however. In education, quotas were struck down long ago. Why do you hate freedom and equality?

The community's makeup may not naturally reflect the makeup of the institution, which is why greater opportunities should be made available to those groups, rather than an expansion of Affirmative Action programs.

Universities may not truly represent American racial percentages, for example, because of the still fairly sizable number of those in the African-American community receiving disproportionately poor education. Integration by artificial means shouldn't be approached until those opportunities are fixed to allow them an equal standing with competing applicants.

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Postby AmeriQuew » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:48 am

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Correct me if i am wrong but is not America going to have white people as a minority within a few decades, thus suggesting that the OP might be a little bit biased or uninformed when they claim this Anti-affirmative action stuff favors white people, and as such never bother to think this may actually have some economic legitimacy...Quew.
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Postby The Whispers » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:49 am

Zweite Alaje wrote:Affrimative Action is bad from a purely economic viewpoint, so is minimum wage.

Elaborate.

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Postby Ifreann » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:49 am

Affirmative Action is awesome and should exist until there are no racists/sexists/etc.
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Postby The Broken Imperial Sector » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:50 am

I say get rid of it. All it does is hold minority's hands who want equal rights as us and now that they have them it should no longer be in effect.
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Postby Imota » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:51 am

The Electoral College wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:No. In employment, it says that hiring should reflect the community's make-up. It does not require less qualified people to be hired, however. In education, quotas were struck down long ago. Why do you hate freedom and equality?

The community's makeup may not naturally reflect the makeup of the institution, which is why greater opportunities should be made available to those groups, rather than an expansion of Affirmative Action programs.

Universities may not truly represent American racial percentages, for example, because of the still fairly sizable number of those in the African-American community receiving disproportionately poor education. Integration by artificial means shouldn't be approached until those opportunities are fixed to allow them an equal standing with competing applicants.


A noble sentiment. The problem is, most people who oppose affirmative action also oppose fixing the problem of lack of opportunity for precisely the same reason.
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:52 am

greed and death wrote:
The way to stop discriminating based on race is to stop discriminating based on race

Chief Justice Roberts

Sums up my view.

The Chief Justice is a ass.
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:54 am

The Broken Imperial Sector wrote:I say get rid of it. All it does is hold minority's hands who want equal rights as us and now that they have them it should no longer be in effect.

Why do you want to empower racists and sexists and what not?
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Postby The Electoral College » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:57 am

Imota wrote:
The Electoral College wrote:The community's makeup may not naturally reflect the makeup of the institution, which is why greater opportunities should be made available to those groups, rather than an expansion of Affirmative Action programs.

Universities may not truly represent American racial percentages, for example, because of the still fairly sizable number of those in the African-American community receiving disproportionately poor education. Integration by artificial means shouldn't be approached until those opportunities are fixed to allow them an equal standing with competing applicants.


A noble sentiment. The problem is, most people who oppose affirmative action also oppose fixing the problem of lack of opportunity for precisely the same reason.

It is dissapointing that some would indeed leave an 'open door' to both races, while not taking the necessary steps to put them an equal distance from that door. However, ignoring the inequity in the resources and rather applauding how an institution's make-up reflects society as a whole does little to solve the actual problem.

It's a rather simple problem to diagnose in a very broad sense. Universities aren't, as far as I know, actively trying to deny minority applicants- so the lack of minority applicants either means they don't have the empowerment to apply or they haven't received the proper resources to pursue post-secondary education. Equal standards that ignore race entirely set a benchmark with which to judge progress at 'integrating' those resources.

To a certain extent, however, you can't make an entire race want to walk through a door they haven't been able to walk through. Minorities will be under-represented in certain fields by sheer numerical fact, just as they may be over-represented elsewhere. Plans that both allow opportunities to be open and ensure an equal chance to pursue those opportunities are the best solution.

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Postby Phocidaea » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:59 am

As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

For college admissions, for instance - as blunt as it sounds, I don't care if you're a half-black half-Mexican female, if you want to get into the same school as me, you should have to do the same fucking stuff. It's not fair that I should be punished for being white or male. It is absolutely reverse discrimination, and no amount of lefty PC lotion can fix that.
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Postby Mavorpen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:02 pm

Phocidaea wrote:As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

For college admissions, for instance - as blunt as it sounds, I don't care if you're a half-black half-Mexican female, if you want to get into the same school as me, you should have to do the same fucking stuff. It's not fair that I should be punished for being white or male. It is absolutely reverse discrimination, and no amount of lefty PC lotion can fix that.

We do. It's not like I walked into the university, yelled out, "ACCEPT ME, BITCHES!" and was promptly presented with admittance to the university.
Last edited by Mavorpen on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:03 pm

Phocidaea wrote:As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

Good of you to admit that you're more concerned with having an easy life than the equal treatment of all people in society. Now we can just dismiss everything you say out of hand as the usual "But...but...my privilege!" whining.
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Postby Phocidaea » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:03 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

For college admissions, for instance - as blunt as it sounds, I don't care if you're a half-black half-Mexican female, if you want to get into the same school as me, you should have to do the same fucking stuff. It's not fair that I should be punished for being white or male. It is absolutely reverse discrimination, and no amount of lefty PC lotion can fix that.

We do.


Well, I'm sure many of "you" (whatever demographic "you" is) do, but the point is that with AA you don't necessarily have to do quite as much to achieve the same outcome.

Ifreann wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

Good of you to admit that you're more concerned with having an easy life than the equal treatment of all people in society. Now we can just dismiss everything you say out of hand as the usual "But...but...my privilege!" whining.


Ill-defined "privilege" is not a valid reason to discriminate against someone.

Hate to break it to you, but white males in the US are not born with gold bars spewing from our mouths and hundred dollar bills in our hands.
Last edited by Phocidaea on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wamitoria » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:03 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

For college admissions, for instance - as blunt as it sounds, I don't care if you're a half-black half-Mexican female, if you want to get into the same school as me, you should have to do the same fucking stuff. It's not fair that I should be punished for being white or male. It is absolutely reverse discrimination, and no amount of lefty PC lotion can fix that.

We do. It's not like I walked into the university, yelled out, "ACCEPT ME, BITCHES!" and was promptly presented with admittance to the university.

What Phocidaea doesn't understand is that I, with a "white" sounding name, am more likely to get called back for an interview or accepted into a university than somebody with a "black" sounding name. Even if we have the same overall GPA and test scores.
Last edited by Wamitoria on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Whispers » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:04 pm

Phocidaea wrote:It's not fair that I should be punished for being white or male.

But is it fair that you have vastly better access to the equipment and training required to get in, or that you inhabit one of the very few groups that nobody would question taking several years off real life to learn about History or moss or whatever?

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Postby Mavorpen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:05 pm

Phocidaea wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:We do.


Well, I'm sure many of "you" (whatever demographic "you" is) do, but the point is that with AA you don't necessarily have to do quite as much to achieve the same outcome.

Yes, we do.
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