Euro court bans school crucifixes, Italy bristles

[Hairless Kitten II]

Public anger erupted in Italy after a European court ruled that displaying crucifixes in schools and public places violates educational and religious freedoms.

The European Court of Human Rights ruled on Tuesday that Italy has been breaching the rights of parents to educate their children according to their own beliefs. It also violates children's right to freedom of religion, it said.

Italian Education Minister Mariastella Gelmini said she would appeal the European court's ruling. She added that as the cross was part of the Italian tradition, "no one, and certainly not an ideological European court, will succeed in erasing our identity."

The Italian bishops' conference also denounced the court ruling as "partial and ideological," saying the crucifix "is not just a religious symbol but also a sign of cultural belonging."

Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi told Italian television that the ruling had been met "with astonishment and regret" by the Catholic Church.

"The crucifix has always been a sign of God's love, unity, and hospitality to all humanity. It is unpleasant that it is considered a sign of division, exclusion, or a restriction of freedom," he said.

The Italian foreign minister said the government would appeal against the ruling.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=11 ... =351020606

This is a good ruling. Public schools are not only open for Christian people, but also for non-believers and people that have put their bet on another faith.

A nice detail, and not mentioned in the story, is the fact that the leader of the 7 judges was the Belgian Françoise Tulkens. Another reason for religious fanatics to hate Belgians.

However, I do understand that Catholic Italy is very upset now.

[Cabra West]

They implemented that in Germany some years ago.
The Catholic church was actually bussing nuns and priests from all over Europe in to stage protests... a very sorry sight, if I may say so. A bit like a Father Ted episode. The nuns who ran our school refused to participate.

I do welcome the decision of the court, I have to say.

[The Tofu Islands]

I suppose my feelings on the subject depend on what the crucifix is there for. If it’s there because the class is currently learning about Christianity in RE/RS then I don’t have a problem with it (as long as the same is done for religious symbols of other religions). However if it’s just there as an endorsement of Christianity, then I agree that it is wrong.

[Hairless Kitten II]

They implemented that in Germany some years ago.
The Catholic church was actually bussing nuns and priests from all over Europe in to stage protests... a very sorry sight, if I may say so. A bit like a Father Ted episode. The nuns who ran our school refused to participate.

I do welcome the decision of the court, I have to say.

We removed our crucifixes about 20 or 30 years ago. The Belgian bishops were pretty mad about it too. Today, no one is moaning about this issue.

It's nothing more as normal that a public school is a neutral place in deeds and appearance.

[Cabra West]

I suppose my feelings on the subject depend on what the crucifix is there for. If it’s there because the class is currently learning about Christianity in RE/RS then I don’t have a problem with it (as long as the same is done for religious symbols of other religions). However if it’s just there as an endorsement of Christianity, then I agree that it is wrong.

If it is the way it was in Germany, it's constantly there. Not just a temporary thing, but sort of part of the classroom furniture.

[Cabra West]

We removed our crucifixes about 20 or 30 years ago. The Belgian bishops were pretty mad about it too. Today, no one is moaning about this issue.

It's nothing more as normal that a public school is a neutral place in deeds and appearance.

Heh... that German court ruling may well have happened some 20 years ago as well. Remember, you're talking to an old biddy here, and I was still at school when that happened

[South Lorenya]

"The crucifix has always been a sign of God's love, unity, and hospitality to all humanity. It is unpleasant that it is considered a sign of division, exclusion, or a restriction of freedom," he said.

Bullshit. The crucifix is and has always been a torture device, and should be treated the same as the rack, the iron maiden, and the star wars holiday special.

[The Tofu Islands]

If it is the way it was in Germany, it's constantly there. Not just a temporary thing, but sort of part of the classroom furniture.

The reaction the decision provoked (stuff about “erasing our identity” and such) seems to suggest that that’s the case. And I doubt the courts would kick up a fuss if it was just there because they were currently learning about Christianity.

[Altane]

I personally find it very sad. This is often mainly at the complaints of minor groups of Muslims or other groups like that. I'm not saying all other faiths are trying to undermine Christianity but people in those faiths. More and more are immigrants to other nations given an abundance of rights they didn't have (refering to Islamic nations) and some start complaining that mentioning God, Jesus Christ etc is against Freedom of Religion or is discriminating against their religion. I find this very insensitive to Christian believers feelings, I don't find Atheists at all complaining about Christians saying the word God at all or in Official things of Christian Majority nations. The fatcs also go to the fact that Christians in Islamic majority nations have lesser rights and in some can't even speak about Christianity. I want to co-exist with people and have tolerance but complaining about things like this is only fostering further intolerance towards people, because believers don't like having their religion stepped on and progress on religious tolerance and co-existance is being set back as a result. Why can't some people live and let live, and by the way I'm not interested in getting into a debate here, and I just wanted to make my point.

[Hairless Kitten II]

If it is the way it was in Germany, it's constantly there. Not just a temporary thing, but sort of part of the classroom furniture.

The reaction the decision provoked (stuff about “erasing our identity” and such) seems to suggest that that’s the case. And I doubt the courts would kick up a fuss if it was just there because they were currently learning about Christianity.

It depends, in a public school Christian religious classes is an option, you can also opt for another religion or non-confessional moral classes.

In such case, a permanent crucifix is allowed pending the Christian religious classes.

[Cabra West]

I personally find it very sad. This is often mainly at the complaints of minor groups of Muslims or other groups like that. I'm not saying all other faiths are trying to undermine Christianity but people in those faiths. More and more are immigrants to other nations given an abundance of rights they didn't have (refering to Islamic nations) and some start complaining that mentioning God, Jesus Christ etc is against Freedom of Religion or is discriminating against their religion. I find this very insensitive to Christian believers feelings, I don't find Atheists at all complaining about Christians saying the word God at all or in Official things of Christian Majority nations. The fatcs also go to the fact that Christians in Islamic majority nations have lesser rights and in some can't even speak about Christianity. I want to co-exist with people and have tolerance but complaining about things like this is only fostering further intolerance towards people, because believers don't like having their religion stepped on and progress on religious tolerance and co-existance is being set back as a result. Why can't some people live and let live, and by the way I'm not interested in getting into a debate here, and I just wanted to make my point.

So, essentially your argument is that since it's ok in those nations, we should do the same. Forgive me for saying that, but I'm not all that keen om immitating Islamic nations just out of spite, I don't think that's a very clever thing to do.

A public school is run by the state, and a secular state has no business endorsing ANY religion to children. Even the nuns at the school I went to had enough sense to understand that. Private schools can still go ahead and expose children to anything within the bounds of legality, but public schools need to be held to higher standards than that.

Also, can you please explain to me how not having a crucifix in the classroom is "stepping on your religion"? I'm rather curious to hear about that...

[Hairless Kitten II]

I personally find it very sad. This is often mainly at the complaints of minor groups of Muslims or other groups like that. I'm not saying all other faiths are trying to undermine Christianity but people in those faiths. More and more are immigrants to other nations given an abundance of rights they didn't have (refering to Islamic nations) and some start complaining that mentioning God, Jesus Christ etc is against Freedom of Religion or is discriminating against their religion. I find this very insensitive to Christian believers feelings, I don't find Atheists at all complaining about Christians saying the word God at all or in Official things of Christian Majority nations. The fatcs also go to the fact that Christians in Islamic majority nations have lesser rights and in some can't even speak about Christianity. I want to co-exist with people and have tolerance but complaining about things like this is only fostering further intolerance towards people, because believers don't like having their religion stepped on and progress on religious tolerance and co-existance is being set back as a result. Why can't some people live and let live, and by the way I'm not interested in getting into a debate here, and I just wanted to make my point.

While the Muslims cheered the ruling (which is weird, since they have several religious problems with public schools too, think about the veil, Halal food at school...), it's not their 'fault'.

It al started with Soile Lautsi, who noticed that there were permanent crucifixes in all classrooms in a public school in Albano Terme (Northern Italy). She argued that it was a violation on the separation of church & state. She asked the specific school to adjust it but they didn't want to listen. She went to local courtrooms, but the judges ruled different.

Soile Lautsi is an Italian mother of Finnish descent and married with an Italian man.

[Blouman Empire]

And people said that the EU doesn't take away powers of a sovereign state. /threadjack.

[Hairless Kitten II]

And people said that the EU doesn't take away powers of a sovereign state. /threadjack.

The EU is not an "à la carte" framework. It's normal that you lose some specific powers if you hand it over to an higher authority.

No one is forced to join or to stay at the EU.

Besides, in countries like the USA the separated states can't do what they want either.

[Blouman Empire]

And people said that the EU doesn't take away powers of a sovereign state. /threadjack.

The EU is not an "à la carte" framework. It's normal that you lose some specific powers if you hand it over to an higher authority.

No one is forced to join or to stay at the EU.

Besides, in countries like the USA the separated states can't do what they want either.

So that would be a yes Blouman you are right.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

I must incline to approve of the fact that public schools should be welcoming to all faiths or none, but in some countries where one faith is most followed, there should be an opt out or something.

[Hairless Kitten II]

And people said that the EU doesn't take away powers of a sovereign state. /threadjack.

The EU is not an "à la carte" framework. It's normal that you lose some specific powers if you hand it over to an higher authority.

No one is forced to join or to stay at the EU.

Besides, in countries like the USA the separated states can't do what they want either.

So that would be a yes Blouman you are right.

It's not a matter of right or wrong. I'm wondering how a central authority like the EU could work if each country has the right to veto every new law or ruling.

The EU is like a relationship: it's not only a matter of taking, you also have to give a lot. But every lucky person who's inside a healthy relationship can testify that the reward of giving is awesome.

[Blouman Empire]

I must incline to approve of the fact that public schools should be welcoming to all faiths or none, but in some countries where one faith is most followed, there should be an opt out or something.

What there should be is some people to harden the FUIC up.

Oh no we can't allow someone to wear a Hijab to a public school that is an expression of religion.


Man I'm in an angry, foul and bitter mood tonight I should get off before I flame/troll/flamebait the fuck out of people.

[Blouman Empire]

It's not a matter of right or wrong. I'm wondering how a central authority like the EU could work if each country has the right to veto every new law or ruling.

The EU is like a relationship: it's not only a matter of taking, you also have to give a lot. But every lucky person who's inside a healthy relationship can testify that the reward of giving is awesome.

Look all I am saying is that it shows that this so called nations still get to run their country the way they want to run it while being a member of the EU is crap. And as I said /threadjack.

[Cabra West]

It's not a matter of right or wrong. I'm wondering how a central authority like the EU could work if each country has the right to veto every new law or ruling.

The EU is like a relationship: it's not only a matter of taking, you also have to give a lot. But every lucky person who's inside a healthy relationship can testify that the reward of giving is awesome.

Look all I am saying is that it shows that this so called nations still get to run their country the way they want to run it while being a member of the EU is crap. And as I said /threadjack.

Well, yes and no.
As I see it, Italy officially separated church and state. Yet it refused to implement this separation in the case of crucifixes in schools. So the EU courts ruled that it had to.
I'm curious what effect this will have on the Irish school system, which is funded by the state but mostly run by the churches. Who will get the say? The guy who pays, or the guy who organises everything?

[Blouman Empire]

Well, yes and no.
As I see it, Italy officially separated church and state. Yet it refused to implement this separation in the case of crucifixes in schools. So the EU courts ruled that it had to.
I'm curious what effect this will have on the Irish school system, which is funded by the state but mostly run by the churches. Who will get the say? The guy who pays, or the guy who organises everything?

It will be interesting to see, and I know Ireland is a special case

[Hairless Kitten II]

It's not a matter of right or wrong. I'm wondering how a central authority like the EU could work if each country has the right to veto every new law or ruling.

The EU is like a relationship: it's not only a matter of taking, you also have to give a lot. But every lucky person who's inside a healthy relationship can testify that the reward of giving is awesome.

Look all I am saying is that it shows that this so called nations still get to run their country the way they want to run it while being a member of the EU is crap. And as I said /threadjack.

Well, yes and no.
As I see it, Italy officially separated church and state. Yet it refused to implement this separation in the case of crucifixes in schools. So the EU courts ruled that it had to.
I'm curious what effect this will have on the Irish school system, which is funded by the state but mostly run by the churches. Who will get the say? The guy who pays, or the guy who organises everything?

If it are public schools then they will have to remove their crucifixes sooner or later. It's waiting till one is using the OP precedent.

[Cabra West]

If it are public schools then they will have to remove their crucifixes sooner or later. It's waiting till one is using the OP precedent.

I hope so.
And put it this way : The Catholic church really doesn't look its best at the moment in regards to its behaviour towards children. Chances are, it may not kick up that much of a fuss to avoid even more backlash.

[Eugene Zolo]

The article says that the court banned the crucifixes in schools and public places. What I'm wondering is what the fuck do they mean by public places? Can some of you Europeans please elaborate on what constitutes public places in this decision.

[Saint Gilbert]

EU courts shouldn't be ruling on things like this, full stop.

At the risk of sounding like a Little Englander, there are far too many officials in Brussels and Strasbourg making these kinds of proclamations. The European Union should be nothing more than an economic community with some - not much - political clout. This just smacks of the superstate that the Eurosceptics bleat about.

I really hope the Italian government tells the EU what to do with itself in this case.