Halal Houses

[Quintium]

Interesting bit of news from the Netherlands today.

A state-sponsored housing corporation has decided to build 188 'halal apartments'. These apartments cater specifically to muslims; they have separate spaces for men and women, a special out-of-sight storage space for shoes and a special water supply for muslims who want to clean themselves in a ritual manner. The apartments all have a special corridor that makes it possible for women not to encounter male guests, and for male guests not to encounter women. The apartments are also equipped with a satellite dish so inhabitants can receive up to 800 mainly-Arabic television channels.



Of course, a lot of people are now outraged, especially Geert Wilders. On his website, he writes:

"The elderly have to wait for years to have a more accessible shower or toilet put in by their housing corporation. However, when it's about Islam, the housing corporation starts listening immediately. Apart from that, the idea of such a medieval sex segragation, with separate spaces for men and women and hallways where women don't run into men, is simply retarded. And to top that, it's state-funded."

What do you think? Personally, I think it's a bloody outrage that my money is being spent on houses built with luxuries that cater solely to the needs of muslims. And Geert Wilders is right about this one - that housing corporation is actually spending taxpayers' money on facilities to segragate men and women, which is a bit unacceptable. But coming from a state that also funds fundamentalist islamic schools and declares normal zoning laws void when mosques don't meet them, it's hardly a surprise that they agreed to fund this.

[L Ron Cupboard]

I think you are prejudiced and have issues.

[Quintium]

That's a great and useful contribution to this discussion.
I bring up facts and I get personal insults.

[Greed and Death]

If people want to not encounter members of the opposite sex they can stay at home, oh wait that is what they are doing here.

[Tsuntion]

I'm fine with it; indeed, it's good that Muslims can have houses sure to conform to their religious needs. As far as I gather, Muslims are not limited to those houses and others are neither forced to live in them nor banned from doing so, so I don't see what the problem is. If you think it's an outrage your money is going to houses perfectly functional for everyone being built to cater to Muslims, I don't see why some Muslims would not be justified in outrage at their money going to houses which don't measure up to their standards.

[Katganistan]

Interesting bit of news from the Netherlands today.

A state-sponsored housing corporation has decided to build 188 'halal apartments'. These apartments cater specifically to muslims; they have separate spaces for men and women, a special out-of-sight storage space for shoes and a special water supply for muslims who want to clean themselves in a ritual manner. The apartments all have a special corridor that makes it possible for women not to encounter male guests, and for male guests not to encounter women. The apartments are also equipped with a satellite dish so inhabitants can receive up to 800 mainly-Arabic television channels.

(Image)

Of course, a lot of people are now outraged, especially Geert Wilders. On his website, he writes:

"The elderly have to wait for years to have a more accessible shower or toilet put in by their housing corporation. However, when it's about Islam, the housing corporation starts listening immediately. Apart from that, the idea of such a medieval sex segragation, with separate spaces for men and women and hallways where women don't run into men, is simply retarded. And to top that, it's state-funded."

What do you think? Personally, I think it's a bloody outrage that my money is being spent on houses built with luxuries that cater solely to the needs of muslims. And Geert Wilders is right about this one - that housing corporation is actually spending taxpayers' money on facilities to segragate men and women, which is a bit unacceptable. But coming from a state that also funds fundamentalist islamic schools and declares normal zoning laws void when mosques don't meet them, it's hardly a surprise that they agreed to fund this.

We're going to rage about housing built to accommodate the people in them?

Get rid of all the assisted living spaces. How dare the elderly expect us to cater to their lifestyles?

[Quintium]

I'm fine with it; indeed, it's good that Muslims can have houses sure to conform to their religious needs.

Even if those needs mean women have a separate space so they don't have to meet male guests?
That's another problem - these houses are based on a sexist and anti-integration basis.

As far as I gather, Muslims are not limited to those houses and others are neither forced to live in them nor banned from doing so, so I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that public money paid for housing built specifically to meet the needs of a small but vocal minority. And that money isn't being spent on people whose houses have real problems. One person said he had a house with that corporation, and the ceiling kept leaking and was turning black but they didn't have any time or money to fix it. As Geert Wilders said, the elderly sometimes have to wait for months or years before their medical rather than cultural needs are met.

If you think it's an outrage your money is going to houses perfectly functional for everyone being built to cater to Muslims, I don't see why some Muslims would not be justified in outrage at their money going to houses which don't measure up to their standards.

1. Muslims in the Netherlands are not net payers to the government; they are net receivers.
2. These houses were built with state-funded luxuries that are only useful to muslims.
3. The few non-muslims who lived in that area are now moving out, so it's going to be a muslim ghetto with 188 households.

[Quintium]

Get rid of all the assisted living spaces. How dare the elderly expect us to cater to their lifestyles?

There's a difference between people who can't walk properly and people who want to discriminate against women and non-believers in a rather unconstitutional way, and actually ask for government funding to do so. These are not medical needs - they're islamic luxuries with state funding.

[Norstal]

That's a great and useful contribution to this discussion.
I bring up facts and I get personal insults.

That's because you're attacking the wrong people. This is similar to apartheid , it's not the Muslims you should blame. They're as useful to Muslims as a ban on burkas.

http://www.columnisten.eu/2012/11/de-ha ... ng-op.html

[Quintium]

That's because you're attacking the wrong people. This is similar to apartheid , it's not the Muslims you should blame. They're as useful to Muslims as a ban on burkas.

Yet the idea was based on voices from that community. Don't forget, before the renovation started, more than half the inhabitants were already muslim, and they had the idea submitted. It's also not Apartheid in that muslims are free to live where they want if they don't want to live there, but these living spaces were renovated "with islamic needs specifically in mind" and are expected to be inhabited almost exclusively by muslims. That's also why these tiny apartments have five bedrooms each.

[Ralkovia]

I think you are prejudiced and have issues.

He's prejudiced because he's against prejudice against women?

[Fartsniffage]

I'm disappointed.

I thought this would be about curry houses.

[Ovisterra]

I think you are prejudiced and have issues.

He's prejudiced because he's against prejudice against women?

I don't think a house can be prejudiced.

[Ralkovia]

He's prejudiced because he's against prejudice against women?

I don't think a house can be prejudiced.

I don't think a house designs other houses.

[Dumb Ideologies]

He's prejudiced because he's against prejudice against women?

I don't think a house can be prejudiced.

The walls don't only have ears. They have placards. Angry placards.

[Ovisterra]

I don't think a house can be prejudiced.

I don't think a house designs other houses.

I believe you are right there.

[Tsuntion]

I'm fine with it; indeed, it's good that Muslims can have houses sure to conform to their religious needs.

Even if those needs mean women have a separate space so they don't have to meet male guests?
That's another problem - these houses are based on a sexist and anti-integration basis.

As long as the women are happy with this, yes.

As far as I gather, Muslims are not limited to those houses and others are neither forced to live in them nor banned from doing so, so I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that public money paid for housing built specifically to meet the needs of a small but vocal minority. And that money isn't being spent on people whose houses have real problems.

Public money is being used to build houses. These houses are a little different to standard ones. They satisfy a minority -- to whom the issues the houses cater for are very real problems -- and still work for the majority. Again, I see no problem here.

One person said he had a house with that corporation, and the ceiling kept leaking and was turning black but they didn't have any time or money to fix it. As Geert Wilders said, the elderly sometimes have to wait for months or years before their medical rather than cultural needs are met.

I don't see how either of those are related to the situation at hand. Assuming briefly that a fixed amount goes towards this corporation each year, since I don't know how things work in the Netherlands or really my own country, new houses would be built with that money anyway, and money for medicine among the elderly isn't related to housing.

If you think it's an outrage your money is going to houses perfectly functional for everyone being built to cater to Muslims, I don't see why some Muslims would not be justified in outrage at their money going to houses which don't measure up to their standards.

1. Muslims in the Netherlands are not net payers to the government; they are net receivers.
2. These houses were built with state-funded luxuries that are only useful to muslims.
3. The few non-muslims who lived in that area are now moving out, so it's going to be a muslim ghetto with 188 households.

1. I expect they pay taxes. I won't get into an argument about whether they do more giving or recieving, thanks.
2. But can still be used by anyone.
3. So?

[Quintium]

As long as the women are happy with this, yes.

We can't tell - many of them spend their lives inside, and the men do the talking.
And if they're not happy and try to get out, they're ostracized or murdered.

Public money is being used to build houses. These houses are a little different to standard ones. They satisfy a minority -- to whom the issues the houses cater for are very real problems -- and still work for the majority. Again, I see no problem here.

The problem is that these 'issues' are not problems for them. They can live without a special shoe cupboard and a special water pipe for religious rituals.
And they certainly can live without 800 Arabic television channels paid for by the Dutch state.

I don't see how either of those are related to the situation at hand. Assuming briefly that a fixed amount goes towards this corporation each year, since I don't know how things work in the Netherlands or really my own country, new houses would be built with that money anyway, and money for medicine among the elderly isn't related to housing.

It's not medicine. Here's an example. My grandparents owned their own house, and they started having problems walking, so they sold their house and bought a single-level house with special bathrooms. Now, had they lived in one of that corporation's houses, they would have been put on a waiting list, and according to some people I know those waiting lists can take months or years before you move up far enough to get anything done. And even then, the corporation has to approve changes.

1. I expect they pay taxes. I won't get into an argument about whether they do more giving or recieving, thanks.

They do more receiving, let's establish that for a second.
Nyenrode Institute's NYFER figures, for reference.

2. But can still be used by anyone.

But won't be, and have luxuries beyond those required specifically for muslims.
Luxuries paid for by taxpayers, mind you. I'd also like 800 television channels, but I'm a non-muslim living in a private home, so no luck for me.

3. So?

If current figures are anything to go by, that neighbourhood will see a massive increase in crime, a drop in education and even basic literacy and a sharp rise in unemployment and poverty. This is the worst type of ghetto - one where a minority that's completely focused on its own group can live with its own group and expand within its own group. Six hours of school a day won't fix eighteen hours of living in communities where sex segragation is taught as a virtue and homosexuality as a sin. If integration is what we want, these houses are what we need to avoid like the plague.

[Hippostania]

I'm fine with this if the muslims build houses like this with their own money. Using taxpayer money for this kind of nonsense is outrageous, how are these people going to integrate into the Dutch society if we actually encourage to separate themselves from the native population like this?

[Greed and Death]

I'm disappointed.

I thought this would be about curry houses.

I do love a good Halal combo meal from a push cart after a night of drinking.

[Greed and Death]

I'm fine with this if the muslims build houses like this with their own money. Using taxpayer money for this kind of nonsense is outrageous, how are these people going to integrate into the Dutch society if we actually encourage to separate themselves from the native population like this?

Dutch society is becoming Muslim, really the question is when will the rest of Holland realize they need to adopt Arab cultural values.

[Quintium]

I'm fine with this if the muslims build houses like this with their own money. Using taxpayer money for this kind of nonsense is outrageous, how are these people going to integrate into the Dutch society if we actually encourage to separate themselves from the native population like this?

Contradiction underlined. And indeed, the fact they fund these houses with taxpayer money is just a giant insult.

Dutch society is becoming Muslim, really the question is when will the rest of Holland realize they need to adopt Arab cultural values.

I'm just glad so many people would fight to their deaths to prevent that from happening. We should never have opened our borders to muslims. What's happening in this neighbourhood is what happens everywhere with a sunni majority. As soon as they reach a majority, they want more rights than others, more luxuries than others and ideally, an area without non-sunnis.

[Cosmopoles]

Heaven forbid that houses are built based on the needs of the people who are going to live in them.

[Quintium]

Heaven forbid that houses are built based on the needs of the people who are going to live in them.

They're not their needs, unless you consider 800 Arab television channels a need.
These are cultural demands. They want our society to pay for and submit to their demands, in general.

[Cosmopoles]

Heaven forbid that houses are built based on the needs of the people who are going to live in them.

They're not their needs, unless you consider 800 Arab television channels a need.
These are cultural demands. They want our society to pay for and submit to their demands, in general.

Is the budget for these houses significantly different from the budget for other social housing projects in the Netherlands?