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What if Carthage won the Punic Wars?

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Krownsinburg
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What if Carthage won the Punic Wars?

Postby Krownsinburg » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:45 am

What if Carthage had won the Punic Wars, took over the Roman Republic, then dominated the Mediterranean?

How would culture, religion, warfare and history itself be affected?

Would it dominate the lands Rome would in the future, or would it expand it's influence beyond?

Discuss.
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Postby Risottia » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:55 am

We'd be all writing in a variant of the Phoenician script right now.

Oh wait.
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Norsklow
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:11 am

We'd be practising infanticide on a massive scale:

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/01/scien ... all&src=pm
the ritual slaying of children in ancient Carthage was so common that it helped control the growth of the population



Oh wait... yeah... that IS a bit like today.
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Postby Yewhohohopia » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:13 am

Obviously Gaul would become all-powerful in Europe, albeit perhaps by taking on some Roman mores. We'd be speaking some hideous mismash of Latin, French, German, and a smattering of other languages. God forbid.
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Krownsinburg
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Postby Krownsinburg » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:15 am

Yewhohohopia wrote:Obviously Gaul would become all-powerful in Europe, albeit perhaps by taking on some Roman mores. We'd be speaking some hideous mismash of Latin, French, German, and a smattering of other languages. God forbid.


Sounds messy.
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Norsklow
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:17 am

Krownsinburg wrote:
Yewhohohopia wrote:Obviously Gaul would become all-powerful in Europe, albeit perhaps by taking on some Roman mores. We'd be speaking some hideous mismash of Latin, French, German, and a smattering of other languages. God forbid.


Sounds messy.



Ut! Ut! Godemite! Olicrosse!
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Postby greed and death » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:19 am

We would have used the Phoenician alphabet instead of the Latin one.
Romance languages would be based off of Punic, and the influence would not have reached as far North.
I think Carthage would have fell sooner as they were already relying on mercenaries to heavily fill their ranks by the time of their wars with Rome. Which Rome did just before its fall by relying on German mercenaries.
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Krownsinburg
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Postby Krownsinburg » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:21 am

Personally, I'd say they would come to conquer all the islands of the Mediterranean, the Italian, Greek & Iberian peninsulas, the Adriatic coast of the Balkans, and of course North Africa, to a point where they engaged in a showdown with Persia in Anatolia & Egypt, where Carthage would dominant, take Anatolia & Egypt, and then take the Eastern coast of the Mediterranean, and thus be able to spit in Persia's eye.
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Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Everything is Britain's fault.


Hydesland wrote:If we go down this route we'll eventually be blaming William the Conqueror.


Divair wrote:
Krownsinburg wrote:Vote Obama 2012 if you want America to die. :)

Such a good argument.

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The Pacistien Republic
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Postby The Pacistien Republic » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:24 am

I'd say in general everything would be the same, except our languge, our buildings and other such advancements would have a different style on it. Plus the Sid Meier games wouldn't have Rome...which would suck
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Krownsinburg
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Postby Krownsinburg » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:24 am

Norsklow wrote:
Krownsinburg wrote:
Sounds messy.



Ut! Ut! Godemite! Olicrosse!


Sorry, I don't speak... what is that, Portugese?
Just your average Liberal Capitalist Christian Deist American.
The Germanic Confederation of Kröwnsinburg is NOT Fascist!
Monfrox wrote:Your GPS is not always right, especially if it tells you to drive into the Pacific Ocean.


Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Everything is Britain's fault.


Hydesland wrote:If we go down this route we'll eventually be blaming William the Conqueror.


Divair wrote:
Krownsinburg wrote:Vote Obama 2012 if you want America to die. :)

Such a good argument.

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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:25 am

Elephants would replace horses. Races would require larger tracks. There'd be a lot more poop.
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Krownsinburg
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Postby Krownsinburg » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:25 am

The Pacistien Republic wrote:I'd say in general everything would be the same, except our languge, our buildings and other such advancements would have a different style on it. Plus the Sid Meier games wouldn't have Rome...which would suck


Germany all the way if your going for domination victory.

Besides, Italy would take Romes place.
Last edited by Krownsinburg on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just your average Liberal Capitalist Christian Deist American.
The Germanic Confederation of Kröwnsinburg is NOT Fascist!
Monfrox wrote:Your GPS is not always right, especially if it tells you to drive into the Pacific Ocean.


Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Everything is Britain's fault.


Hydesland wrote:If we go down this route we'll eventually be blaming William the Conqueror.


Divair wrote:
Krownsinburg wrote:Vote Obama 2012 if you want America to die. :)

Such a good argument.

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Osarius
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Postby Osarius » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:33 am

Yewhohohopia wrote:We'd be speaking some hideous mismash of Latin, French, German, and a smattering of other languages. God forbid.

lol

I hope that was intentional.
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Norsklow
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:35 am

Krownsinburg wrote:
Norsklow wrote:

Ut! Ut! Godemite! Olicrosse!


Sorry, I don't speak... what is that, Portugese?



The original battlecry of the Huscarls of King Harold at the Battle of Senlac.

In the original Saxon language and original spelling, barring perhaps Olicrosse. It may have been Ollicrosse.
Joseph Stalin, 20 million plus dead -Mao-Tse-Dong, 40 million plus dead - Pol Pot, 2 million dead -Kim-Il-Sung, 5 million dead - Fidel Castro, 1 million dead.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing"

Don't call me Beny! Am I your Father or something? http://paanluelwel2011.wordpress.com/20 ... honorable/
And I way too young to be Beny bith.
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The USOT
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Postby The USOT » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:54 am

Norsklow wrote:We'd be practising infanticide on a massive scale:

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/01/scien ... all&src=pm
the ritual slaying of children in ancient Carthage was so common that it helped control the growth of the population



Oh wait... yeah... that IS a bit like today.
Thats like saying that we still have gladiator fights today XD



Now directly onto the topic at hand, christianity would be very unlikely to have spread throughout the world, with the roman empire being a large engine for its eventual spread. I seem to recall a debate on alternatehistory.com where they discussed the nature of feudalism and military doctrine had carthage won. I think the conclusion was that mercanaries would have become a more common entity with less "nationalist" based armies.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:07 am

The carthaginians were most certainly not conquerors.

The reason the roman empire conquered most of europe is that they were a heavily agrarian economy.
They needed to pay soldiers with land to prevent them getting bored/pissed off and taking shit over.
So...they need land.
So they expand.
And expand.
And expand.
And expand. (Similar to Manifest Destiny in US history and indentured servitude)
It's why when expansion ceased they almost immediately began collapsing like a flan.


Carthage in contrast was a heavily fishing and trading based nation. Most of the areas they conquered were essentially trade and naval ports. If Carthage won the punic wars we'd either see rome EVENTUALLY take over, just later on (And probably fail to be great due to the migration period interrupting it before it's height.)
OR
We'd see them keep roman under heel as a vassal or trade port, and they'd continue to grab med islands and trade ports all over.
We might actually see expeditions to the new world, india, and china significantly earlier than happened historically. (For the same reasons. MMmMMMm spice profits!!!)
The spiritual successors to carthage are the British, Spanish, and Portuguese empire. In stark contrast to the French, Russian, and Austrian empires who more closely resemble rome.



Now, how would that effect the future beyond the immediate "Carthage takes over the med/expeditions/rome fails"?
I'll edit it in after i have a think.

We'd probably still see europe still overrun during the migration period, but instead of latin being our common ancestor language it'd be either Celtic or Old German.
There'd be a significant lack of developed areas, and we'd see Europe slow to catch up to it's contemporary counterpart, but it'd get there.

Now, would the vandals sack carthage?
That depends on how up to scratch the Carthaginian Navy would be at keeping the bastards in europe. If they manage to prevent them from entering north africa as they did historically, (The vandalic tribe), we'll see either a multicultural Iberia (Carthaginian/Vandalic/Celtic/Iberian/Visigothic) that'd be a cultural power of the area, or the vandals will bugger off elsewhere (I'm thinking Anatolia or Greece since Byzantium isn't around.)


Speaking of the eastern bits, we'd likely see either the Greeks ramp up to their Imperial crap again and beat up the Persians, or visa versa.
Now, in the event of Persia actually posing a threat to Greece the carthaginians would get very upset.
They'd likely join the greek side and use their navy to protect greece.
Like fuck do they want the Persians getting any closer to Carthage, let alone controlling Byzantium. (Mmmm...black sea trade profits!!!)

So if the Vandals or another tribe durped their way into Greece, they probably wouldn't make it into Anatolia. And the carthaginians would be pretty quick to make friends to protect trade interests.

So in short we'd either see a celtic/germanic europe under the paternalistic guide of British Empire Beta Test, or if the Persians manage to ramp up their navy to compete, a SUPERPERSIA! that'd probably collapse anyway.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:16 am

OstroEuropa- can I rely upon you to make a MOD for EU to play this out? ;)
Last edited by Norsklow on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joseph Stalin, 20 million plus dead -Mao-Tse-Dong, 40 million plus dead - Pol Pot, 2 million dead -Kim-Il-Sung, 5 million dead - Fidel Castro, 1 million dead.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing"

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:17 am

Norsklow wrote:OstroEuropa- can I rely upon you to make a MOD for EU to play this out? ;)


Steppe Wolf Mod. ;)

11 AD.

Select rome.
Release all nations, sell Carthagnians Sicily.
Play carthage :p
Special Snowflake Syndrome
A malady affecting a significant portion of the world's population wherein the afflicted will demand special treatment, conduct themselves with a ludicrous, unfounded sense of entitlement, and generally make the lives of everyone around them that much more miserable.

The danger of this disease is that the sufferers rarely, if ever, know that they have contracted it, and continue about their merry way under the assumption that EVERYONE ELSE is the problem.

This condition, if left untreated, can radically alter the carrier's demeanor, to include any of the following: a complete devolution to child-like behavior, temper tantrums, and/or fits of narcissistic rage.

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Aethyopea
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Postby Aethyopea » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:19 am

Well it probably wouldn't have been called the punic wars for one. The term "punic" comes from the Phoenicians, a people from the Levant who colonised Carthage. By the time of the wars with Rome they certainly didn't see themselves as Phoenician anymore. It'd be a bit like calling the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 "the Frankish-Ostrogothic war"
Last edited by Aethyopea on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Aethyopea » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:20 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Norsklow wrote:OstroEuropa- can I rely upon you to make a MOD for EU to play this out? ;)


Steppe Wolf Mod. ;)

11 AD.

Select rome.
Release all nations, sell Carthagnians Sicily.
Play carthage :p

You misspelled "Bulgaria". :p
Last edited by Aethyopea on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.
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Postby Varijnland » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:31 am

Norsklow wrote:
Krownsinburg wrote:
Sorry, I don't speak... what is that, Portugese?



The original battlecry of the Huscarls of King Harold at the Battle of Senlac.

In the original Saxon language and original spelling, barring perhaps Olicrosse. It may have been Ollicrosse.

The language is Old English and it reads: "Out! Out! God Almighty! Holy Cross!" at which the Bretons (mercenaries highered by Duke William) turned and fled when they heard the English shout this.

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Ecans
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Postby Ecans » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:33 am

I don't believe that Carthage would have been able to suppress Rome for any length of time. Romans were nothing if not resilient. Rome would have licked her wounds, thrown up another great man, and the result would be the same in the long run. Carthage was simply not big nor powerful enough to dominate all of Italy let alone Rome herself. Even Hannibal couldn't deal with Rome’s Fabian tactics and never did lay siege to the city.
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Krownsinburg
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Postby Krownsinburg » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:48 am

Norsklow wrote:We'd be practising infanticide on a massive scale:

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/01/scien ... all&src=pm
the ritual slaying of children in ancient Carthage was so common that it helped control the growth of the population



Oh wait... yeah... that IS a bit like today.


Oh please, by your logic, we're practicing gladiatorial fighting on a massive scale.
Just your average Liberal Capitalist Christian Deist American.
The Germanic Confederation of Kröwnsinburg is NOT Fascist!
Monfrox wrote:Your GPS is not always right, especially if it tells you to drive into the Pacific Ocean.


Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Everything is Britain's fault.


Hydesland wrote:If we go down this route we'll eventually be blaming William the Conqueror.


Divair wrote:
Krownsinburg wrote:Vote Obama 2012 if you want America to die. :)

Such a good argument.

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Terrible Rage Over Lost Luggage
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Postby Terrible Rage Over Lost Luggage » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:32 am

Hic est cur Carthago delenda est.

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Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:38 am

By absurd coincidence, nothing would change. Prove me wrong.
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