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Conformal Veal Theory
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Men aren't worse off.

Postby Conformal Veal Theory » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:24 pm

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2 ... e-decline/

Interesting discussion there. The article itself asserts that the idea that men are worse off now than they used to be is largely a myth. Any circumstances where they actually are worse off are explained solely by greater competition with women.

The comments section is even more interesting. There is a very heated discussion there about whether or not men are obsolete.

So what do you think? Are men really worse off compared to the 50's or is this a myth? On a related note, will improvements in reproductive technology make men obsolete, or is this a paranoid fantasy?

Interesting and strange stuff one can find on the internet.

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Samuraikoku
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Postby Samuraikoku » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:25 pm

I don't consider myself better or worse off than anybody. This kind of things aren't a zero sum game.

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Not Safe For Work
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Postby Not Safe For Work » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:28 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/10/01/the-myth-of-male-decline/

Interesting discussion there. The article itself asserts that the idea that men are worse off now than they used to be is largely a myth. Any circumstances where they actually are worse off are explained solely by greater competition with women.

The comments section is even more interesting. There is a very heated discussion there about whether or not men are obsolete.

So what do you think? Are men really worse off compared to the 50's or is this a myth? On a related note, will improvements in reproductive technology make men obsolete, or is this a paranoid fantasy?

Interesting and strange stuff one can find on the internet.


Strange stuff? Sure. There's nothing interesting about male-obsolescence paranoia.
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Mr Bananagrabber
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Postby Mr Bananagrabber » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:28 pm

I'd rather be alive now than fifty years ago. :unsure:
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Genivaria
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:30 pm

Mr Bananagrabber wrote:I'd rather be alive now than fifty years ago. :unsure:

^This. Life is good nowadays.
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AETEN II
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Postby AETEN II » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:30 pm

Samuraikoku wrote:I don't consider myself better or worse off than anybody. This kind of things aren't a zero sum game.

-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.
"Quod Vult, Valde Valt"

Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.


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Forsher
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:31 pm

Seems sort of obvious really, it's all about comparative advantage. On a vaguely related note.

Seskany wrote:Feminism (At least, the proper kind) is about equal rights for the sexes. So, no. "Feminists," however, are just bigots with different prejudices then the mainstream terrible people. Note my clever use of quotation marks, there. Fortunately, quotation-mark-feminists are few, and far between. Unless you're on the internet, I mean.


Feminism goes about trying to get gender equality by approaching it from the female perspective. This, when all is said and done, is not surprising when one remembers that feminism began as a ideology that was about getting women equal rights. Now that has largely been achieved (where feminism began) feminism has broadened its scope to deal with all inequality wherever it sees it. Which is the problem, there's inequality that will get left behind and will be ignored by feminism. Not because feminists want to ignore it but because they don't see it. However, maybe if feminism was more successful with what it does see then, perhaps, in an incredibly cynical attempt to stay relevant it will be able to see more... just as it did last time it needed to update.

That bit about not seeing has been something that NSG has been either unable or unwilling to grasp. In the eyes of many on here feminism can do no wrong and this extends to it having no flaws. In fact on similar thread saw me quite deliberately point out an instance of selective quoting on my part in the post where that happened and then spend ages dealing with the feminist arm in that thread that accused me of selective quoting. This wouldn't have been a problem if they had just read and understand my post with the mentioning of selective quoting. It was really quite dense on their part. (I selectively quoted for humour, why else?)

the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes


This is my go-to definition of feminism. It's from a highly respectable source and is only criticised because I don't bother with other definitions (for the most part I disagree with those definitions and they are as respectable in origin). What we see here is that feminists agree with equal rights. More than that, really, they want equal rights. The important bit to note is that they advocate women's rights. What does this mean? Well, quite simply, feminists advocate women's rights to achieve gender equality. Not hard at all to understand, right? Experience here says otherwise, that said this is a new way of explaining this so maybe this time.\

Feminism complains about women not being paid as much. Often, they look at job locations not jobs. If most women are on the checkouts they'll have lower average pays because stacking shelves pays more, for example. This is really more a statistical thing that I wanted to point out. In fact, most people would make this error and I probably only identify it because I've had cause to sit down and think about it some more. This paragraph really exists to show you how easily one can create a passage that is critical of feminism. The bolded sentence exists to elevate me over the rest as I bother to point out that this is something feminists do but it is not a flaw of feminism. (In other words, bias is really easy to create.)

People do complain about the under-acheivement of boys in relation to girls in schools. Boys and English is practically the same thing as Girls and Maths. I'm not sure which is better known, given that I've seen a Simpsons episode working with the latter I am inclined to say in the US, at least, Girls and Maths is. However, that's also the view that's more beneficial to my point (fair, if not balanced). Certainly, having to think about which is better known tells me that they are, at least, equally well known things. That sounds good, right? Well, not really. The simple fact is that boys do worse in English when compared to girls than girls do in maths when compared to boys. This, in an equal society, should mean that that as a problem should be better known. In fact, education is both a glaring success and a glaring failure for feminism as a result of this.

All in all, society is better off for having feminism than it would be for not having it. The challenge today is making sure that feminism continues to be beneficial. The more examples of sexist feminists there are out there is quite possibly for the best. Feminism will be forced to rename itself and "feminism" will go the way of "masculism". The new "equalists" as I dub them will have a clean slate and that should mean that they can do more for gender equality.
Im Großen und Ganzen diese Übersetzung ist schrecklich, aber wer bin ich dann dazu zu äußern? Alles, was ich getan habe ist stehlen die Worte von anderen Männern und nannte es akademische.

Ich komme aus Neuseeland.

Die Welt ist wie nichts für nichts. Ich will damit sagen, dass die Welt alles für etwas, und immer mehr als nichts ist.

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Genivaria
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:31 pm

AETEN II wrote:
Samuraikoku wrote:I don't consider myself better or worse off than anybody. This kind of things aren't a zero sum game.

-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.

Compared to.....?
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."-Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Idealism is not looking at the world only as we'd like it to be, it is seeing the world for what it is, as well as what it could be.
Cynicism is only seeing what it is.

Attending Gary Job Corps, NS access will be infrequent and random for the foreseeable future.

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Samuraikoku
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Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:32 pm

AETEN II wrote:
Samuraikoku wrote:I don't consider myself better or worse off than anybody. This kind of things aren't a zero sum game.

-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.


Matters not how long you live, what matters is how.

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Forsher
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Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:33 pm

AETEN II wrote:
Samuraikoku wrote:I don't consider myself better or worse off than anybody. This kind of things aren't a zero sum game.

-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.


But compared to fifty years ago we live longer lives. Men, as current thinking goes, only ever lived longer than women because so many more used to die in childbirth. Now that modern medicinal practice has greatly reduced this...
Im Großen und Ganzen diese Übersetzung ist schrecklich, aber wer bin ich dann dazu zu äußern? Alles, was ich getan habe ist stehlen die Worte von anderen Männern und nannte es akademische.

Ich komme aus Neuseeland.

Die Welt ist wie nichts für nichts. Ich will damit sagen, dass die Welt alles für etwas, und immer mehr als nichts ist.

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Ashlak
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ashlak » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:33 pm

Men are not worse off, and the idea of men being obsolete is stupid and laughable.

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:34 pm

Forsher nailed it.
Special Snowflake Syndrome
A malady affecting a significant portion of the world's population wherein the afflicted will demand special treatment, conduct themselves with a ludicrous, unfounded sense of entitlement, and generally make the lives of everyone around them that much more miserable.

The danger of this disease is that the sufferers rarely, if ever, know that they have contracted it, and continue about their merry way under the assumption that EVERYONE ELSE is the problem.

This condition, if left untreated, can radically alter the carrier's demeanor, to include any of the following: a complete devolution to child-like behavior, temper tantrums, and/or fits of narcissistic rage.

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Forsher
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:34 pm

Samuraikoku wrote:
AETEN II wrote:-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.


Matters not how long you live, what matters is how.


That's been suggested as why men live shorter lives on average... more risk taking.

That said, my mother reckons that their wives dying does the elderly gents in.
Im Großen und Ganzen diese Übersetzung ist schrecklich, aber wer bin ich dann dazu zu äußern? Alles, was ich getan habe ist stehlen die Worte von anderen Männern und nannte es akademische.

Ich komme aus Neuseeland.

Die Welt ist wie nichts für nichts. Ich will damit sagen, dass die Welt alles für etwas, und immer mehr als nichts ist.

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Conformal Veal Theory
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Ex-Nation

Postby Conformal Veal Theory » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:35 pm

Not Safe For Work wrote:Strange stuff? Sure. There's nothing interesting about male-obsolescence paranoia.


This isn't standard, run-of-the-mill MRA trolling. This is someone actually advocating the phasing out of males as a good thing. This guy is also asserting that gay men are even worse than straight men. It's some interesting shit.
Last edited by Conformal Veal Theory on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:36 pm

Forsher wrote:
Samuraikoku wrote:
Matters not how long you live, what matters is how.


That's been suggested as why men live shorter lives on average... more risk taking.

That said, my mother reckons that their wives dying does the elderly gents in.


Likely untrue, since Eunuchs live longer than uncastrated males.
The current main theory is that testosterone pretty much screws your system like sugar in a gas tank.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/health/eu ... index.html
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Special Snowflake Syndrome
A malady affecting a significant portion of the world's population wherein the afflicted will demand special treatment, conduct themselves with a ludicrous, unfounded sense of entitlement, and generally make the lives of everyone around them that much more miserable.

The danger of this disease is that the sufferers rarely, if ever, know that they have contracted it, and continue about their merry way under the assumption that EVERYONE ELSE is the problem.

This condition, if left untreated, can radically alter the carrier's demeanor, to include any of the following: a complete devolution to child-like behavior, temper tantrums, and/or fits of narcissistic rage.

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The God-Realm
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Ex-Nation

Postby The God-Realm » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:39 pm

We are, we are not lesbians.
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Esternial wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:No

people who qq over losing a gf over a small penis size are insecure and need to check themselves

Before they wreck themselves?

Or their ex' car.

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The Roman Alliance
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Roman Alliance » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:40 pm

Men in the U.S. are, on average, worse-off economically than those a generation or two ago because the increase in the labour supply, due to women entering the workforce en masse, has pushed down the average wage rate for male workers. However, women aren't to blame here as much as trickle down economics and outsourcing are to blame.

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Forsher
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Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:42 pm

Im Großen und Ganzen diese Übersetzung ist schrecklich, aber wer bin ich dann dazu zu äußern? Alles, was ich getan habe ist stehlen die Worte von anderen Männern und nannte es akademische.

Ich komme aus Neuseeland.

Die Welt ist wie nichts für nichts. Ich will damit sagen, dass die Welt alles für etwas, und immer mehr als nichts ist.

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Gauntleted Fist
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Ex-Nation

Postby Gauntleted Fist » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:42 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:
Not Safe For Work wrote:Strange stuff? Sure. There's nothing interesting about male-obsolescence paranoia.


This isn't standard, run-of-the-mill MRA trolling. This is someone actually advocating the phasing out of males as a good thing. This guy is also asserting that gay men are even worse than straight men. It's some interesting shit.

No, it's still not really interesting. Just like people talking about how Hitler was right and we really should have killed all the Jews is not interesting. The fact that there is a greater than zero chance of this happening is outweighed by the idea that one would have to use scientific notation to understand just how small that non-zero chance would be.

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Giovenith
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Giovenith » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:43 pm

I guess it depends on what you mean by "worse off." It's not like they've been viciously oppressed or downgraded, nor do "men of the house" get quite the same wide-spread ass-kissing as they did in the 50's. You might consider things like jobs, pay, expectations, but this isn't exactly unique to their gender. Each sex has it's own struggles in various areas of society, and have both been hit by a few of the same.
So are they worse off? Only about as worse off as everyone is in this day and age. And no, the idea of men being obsolete is absolutely ridiculous.
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greed and death
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby greed and death » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:45 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/10/01/the-myth-of-male-decline/

Interesting discussion there. The article itself asserts that the idea that men are worse off now than they used to be is largely a myth. Any circumstances where they actually are worse off are explained solely by greater competition with women.

The comments section is even more interesting. There is a very heated discussion there about whether or not men are obsolete.

So what do you think? Are men really worse off compared to the 50's or is this a myth? On a related note, will improvements in reproductive technology make men obsolete, or is this a paranoid fantasy?

Interesting and strange stuff one can find on the internet.


I am worse off if I can't slap my secretary's ass like I could in the pre 70's era.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Conformal Veal Theory
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Ex-Nation

Postby Conformal Veal Theory » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:46 pm

Gauntleted Fist wrote:No, it's still not really interesting. Just like people talking about how Hitler was right and we really should have killed all the Jews is not interesting. The fact that there is a greater than zero chance of this happening is outweighed by the idea that one would have to use scientific notation to understand just how small that non-zero chance would be.


Greater than zero chance of what?

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The God-Realm
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Ex-Nation

Postby The God-Realm » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:47 pm

greed and death wrote:
Conformal Veal Theory wrote:http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/10/01/the-myth-of-male-decline/

Interesting discussion there. The article itself asserts that the idea that men are worse off now than they used to be is largely a myth. Any circumstances where they actually are worse off are explained solely by greater competition with women.

The comments section is even more interesting. There is a very heated discussion there about whether or not men are obsolete.

So what do you think? Are men really worse off compared to the 50's or is this a myth? On a related note, will improvements in reproductive technology make men obsolete, or is this a paranoid fantasy?

Interesting and strange stuff one can find on the internet.


I am worse off if I can't slap my secretary's ass like I could in the pre 70's era.

You still are not a lesbian.

The only thing that keeps me from getting a sex change is that I already look pretty.
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Member of: IWW, EF!, La Raza, the KFA, and NSG Senate and Red Army
Esternial wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:No

people who qq over losing a gf over a small penis size are insecure and need to check themselves

Before they wreck themselves?

Or their ex' car.

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PapaJacky
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Founded: Apr 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby PapaJacky » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:47 pm

Forsher wrote:
Feminism complains about women not being paid as much. Often, they look at job locations not jobs. If most women are on the checkouts they'll have lower average pays because stacking shelves pays more, for example. This is really more a statistical thing that I wanted to point out. In fact, most people would make this error and I probably only identify it because I've had cause to sit down and think about it some more. This paragraph really exists to show you how easily one can create a passage that is critical of feminism. The bolded sentence exists to elevate me over the rest as I bother to point out that this is something feminists do but it is not a flaw of feminism. (In other words, bias is really easy to create.)


On a semi-related note; http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf , women are being paid less as a cashier than men are :lol:

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Saruhan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Saruhan » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:52 pm

Mr Bananagrabber wrote:I'd rather be alive now than fifty years ago. :unsure:

But it was better when women stayed in the home, certain people weren't allowed on golf courses, and the US and USSR were playing a game of Nuclear chicken! :p
Caninope wrote:The idea of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh reuniting is about as logical as the idea that Barack Obama will kill his wife, marry Ahmadinejad in a ceremony officiated by Mitt Romney during the 7th Inning Stretch of the Yankees-Red Sox game, and then the happy couple will then go challenge President Xi for the position of General Secretary of the CCP in a gladiatorial fight to the death involving roaches, slingshots, and hard candies.

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