NATION

PASSWORD

The Pagan Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What (Pagan) Religion do you belong to?

Druidry or Celtic Reconstructionism
1
4%
Wicca
6
25%
Ásatrú/Heathenism/Odinism
7
29%
Hellenic Neopaganism
3
13%
Religio Romana
0
No votes
Semitic Neopaganism
0
No votes
Kemetism
0
No votes
Other Reconstructionism
0
No votes
Other (Pagan)
7
29%
 
Total votes : 24

User avatar
Cill Airne
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15512
Founded: Jul 28, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

The Pagan Discussion Thread

Postby Cill Airne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:06 pm

This is a thread about contemporary Paganism (Neopaganism). Contemporary Paganism is an umbrella term dealing with a variety of religious movements, especially those influenced by or a reform/reconstruction of the various historical pagan beliefs of pre-Christianised Europe. Major Contemporary pagan religions include (but is not limited to) Wicca, Thelema, Adonism, Druidry, and Ásatrú.

I have noticed quite a few pagans here, and I decided it would be great for us to have a place we can discuss various topics or ideas found in todays Pagan world. I myself was a Druid, and had practiced it for several years. I would ask non-pagans to be kind and to not insult others. Thank you.
Last edited by Cill Airne on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

User avatar
Phocidaea
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5246
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Phocidaea » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:10 pm

I intend no offense, but what is it that draws people to these religions? You weren't raised in these traditions (I'm assuming), and I doubt anyone proselytized to you about them, so what beliefs do they have that draw you to them on your own accord?
Call me Phoca.

For: retracted alveolar approximant rhotic, vowel reduction, pronouncing clusters in full, palatalization of /t/ and /d/ before approximants, mid unstressed non-reduced vowels, cot-caught merger, flapping /t/ and /d/ before unstressed vowels, ripping off HetRio and incoherent mild stress-timing
Against: not using these when speaking other European languages, Malloria and Riva continuing to be a mod, fellow Americans minding my accent

User avatar
Cill Airne
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15512
Founded: Jul 28, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cill Airne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:24 pm

Phocidaea wrote:I intend no offense, but what is it that draws people to these religions? You weren't raised in these traditions (I'm assuming), and I doubt anyone proselytized to you about them, so what beliefs do they have that draw you to them on your own accord?

No offence there at all. I, obviously, cannot speak for everyone (there are people my age who were born into a pagan religion, but most people from older generations did convert). For me, it is because as a child I was always drawn to nature, and many of the things I did as a child were things that I later found out to be Pagan practices. I can remember as a child I would games with the neighbourhood kids and they didn't like mine because they involved playing with the spirits in the trees, &c. (Which I would now Identify as the genius loci spirits).
But that is what got me interested in Paganism. What brought me to Druidry is a dream I had. As a little child I would have a reoccurring nightmare that I an remember to this day. It got to the point I remember asking for help to those aforementioned spirits one night before bed. That night, while I was running away in my dream, I came to a forest clearing with a man there who identified as "The Healer." From that night forward I would feel, hear, and even see this man from time to time, and felt his presence whenever I needed him. Skip forward to when I am 13, and I did a project on the Celts which involved research into their gods. One of them was listed as "Dian Cecht; the Healer." And for some reason this just clicked and all I could associate it with was the man I had seen, or known for years. A year later I met a Wiccan and she told me that people still worshipped these gods I had researched, and that is when I began to practice Druidry though it took until I was 16 or so for me to really begin practising seriously.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

User avatar
Glen Ifhrinn
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 360
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Glen Ifhrinn » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:27 pm

Phocidaea wrote:I intend no offense, but what is it that draws people to these religions? You weren't raised in these traditions (I'm assuming), and I doubt anyone proselytized to you about them, so what beliefs do they have that draw you to them on your own accord?

I was raised a Druid, my parents were involved in the movement in the 60's and 70's (my parents were nearing 50 when I was born). But even with this, I would have found Druidry, its just home.

My husband, H-Alba, converted to Druidry (before meeting me). He said it is because he just felt comfortable in the pagan world, with druidry being closest to his belief.
Singer ~ Psychiatrist

User avatar
Phocidaea
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5246
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Phocidaea » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:29 pm

Glen Ifhrinn wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:I intend no offense, but what is it that draws people to these religions? You weren't raised in these traditions (I'm assuming), and I doubt anyone proselytized to you about them, so what beliefs do they have that draw you to them on your own accord?

I was raised a Druid, my parents were involved in the movement in the 60's and 70's (my parents were nearing 50 when I was born). But even with this, I would have found Druidry, its just home.

My husband, H-Alba, converted to Druidry (before meeting me). He said it is because he just felt comfortable in the pagan world, with druidry being closest to his belief.


Oh, really? I mean, I know some people must have been raised in these religions, but followers of them are just so rare (and so recent) that I didn't really expect to find a second-generation follower here.
Call me Phoca.

For: retracted alveolar approximant rhotic, vowel reduction, pronouncing clusters in full, palatalization of /t/ and /d/ before approximants, mid unstressed non-reduced vowels, cot-caught merger, flapping /t/ and /d/ before unstressed vowels, ripping off HetRio and incoherent mild stress-timing
Against: not using these when speaking other European languages, Malloria and Riva continuing to be a mod, fellow Americans minding my accent

User avatar
Ora Amaris
Diplomat
 
Posts: 648
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Ora Amaris » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:29 pm

I roughly follow druidry, but I love the other ones as well.
I don't fully believe in literal gods, but as instead archetypes that are known through the collective psyche of humanity. This is especially regarding Wicca. A lot of these religions are not very well understood, but they are quite fascinating to me because of the lore, the symbolism, the mythos and the rituals. I also much prefer the idea of imminence to transcendence, because it is more scientifically valid. Basically, I like these religions because it represents to me a sort of symbolic and ritualistic naturalism that gives a sense of community while straying from the "woo". That's definitely not what other people believe, but I sort of believe in this as an add-on to naturalistic pantheism, and gives wide ranging analogies and symbols for the functions of nature.

It makes much more sense to me, and is much more fulfilling, than the traditional abrahamic religions.
Let beauty and creativity reign throughout the universe,
Preserve the sublime equilibrium of nature,
Find enlightenment through the doors of perception,
An it harm none, do what thou wilt,
Respect yourself, respect all life, celebrate oneness with the universe.
Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49
Paganism, environmentalism, green politics, sustainable development, drug liberalization, socialism, social democracy, single-transferable vote, social liberalism, LGBT rights, gardening
Evangelical Christianity, Islam, social conservatism, laissez-faire, objectivism, genetic patenting, unilateralism, monarchy, authoritarianism, neckties

User avatar
Vinerstand
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 401
Founded: Jun 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Vinerstand » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:30 pm

Sweet, I ain't the only Pegan on NS!

User avatar
Dralonia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dralonia » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:30 pm

For awhile now I've been into pagan things. I believe in magic and that everything in nature has a soul, and I have also always been drawn to nature. I don't though believe in any sort of gods, mostly just spirits of things. I don't know if there is a certain label for those beliefs, but if you know of one I'd really be interested.

User avatar
The USOT
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5862
Founded: Mar 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The USOT » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:38 pm

Directly at the OP, there were a few things I am interested in.

1) Are you purely celtic/druidic? Or a Celtic Wiccan?

2) You said you did some celtic practices as a child without realising? What were these?

3) When you spoke about spirits in the trees, do you beleive you actually saw them/experienced them in a physical manner?
Eco-Friendly Green Cyborg Santa Claus

Contrary to the propaganda, we live in probably the least materialistic culture in history. If we cared about the things of the world, we would treat them quite differently. We would be concerned with their materiality. We would be interested in their beginnings and their ends, before and after they left our grasp.

Peter Timmerman, “Defending Materialism"

User avatar
Phocidaea
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5246
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Phocidaea » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:40 pm

My other question: why are these religions so disproportionately popular on the internet? The gap between actual ratios of pagans in the world and the ratio of paganists on the internet makes the disproportionate amount of atheists on the internet look downright representative of reality.
Call me Phoca.

For: retracted alveolar approximant rhotic, vowel reduction, pronouncing clusters in full, palatalization of /t/ and /d/ before approximants, mid unstressed non-reduced vowels, cot-caught merger, flapping /t/ and /d/ before unstressed vowels, ripping off HetRio and incoherent mild stress-timing
Against: not using these when speaking other European languages, Malloria and Riva continuing to be a mod, fellow Americans minding my accent

User avatar
Cill Airne
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15512
Founded: Jul 28, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cill Airne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:47 pm

The USOT wrote:Directly at the OP, there were a few things I am interested in.

1) Are you purely celtic/druidic? Or a Celtic Wiccan?

2) You said you did some celtic practices as a child without realising? What were these?

3) When you spoke about spirits in the trees, do you beleive you actually saw them/experienced them in a physical manner?


I. I am not a Celtic Wiccan, I am very much so a Druid with quite a few Celtic Reconstructionist influences. I was not introduced to any other pagan path until I was around 16, a few years after I had started practicing my path.
II. I mention them in the OP, the "games" I play as a child, and my belief in the spirits, &c.
III. Yes, I certainly do believe that the spirits, deities, and Sí that I believe in are real in a physical sense.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

User avatar
Glen Ifhrinn
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 360
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Glen Ifhrinn » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:51 pm

Phocidaea wrote:
Glen Ifhrinn wrote:I was raised a Druid, my parents were involved in the movement in the 60's and 70's (my parents were nearing 50 when I was born). But even with this, I would have found Druidry, its just home.

My husband, H-Alba, converted to Druidry (before meeting me). He said it is because he just felt comfortable in the pagan world, with druidry being closest to his belief.


Oh, really? I mean, I know some people must have been raised in these religions, but followers of them are just so rare (and so recent) that I didn't really expect to find a second-generation follower here.

We're in a generation that certainly has children growing up pagans. You have to remember that in the case of Druidry (and Wicca) they both took off in the late 40's and early 50's. They really bloomed in the 60's and 70s, and have continued to grow.
Singer ~ Psychiatrist

User avatar
Ashlak
Envoy
 
Posts: 252
Founded: Oct 29, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Ashlak » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:53 pm

Not a pagan myself, but I am interested in the subject. I did use to be a Wiccan when I was younger, though.

If I were to be a pagan though, I would be a Germanic pagan. I'm very interested in Norse Mythology.

User avatar
Dralonia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dralonia » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Phocidaea wrote:My other question: why are these religions so disproportionately popular on the internet? The gap between actual ratios of pagans in the world and the ratio of paganists on the internet makes the disproportionate amount of atheists on the internet look downright representative of reality.


I don't really think it is that disproportionate, I know quite a few pagans outside of the internet. Most are just rather quiet about it in society due to the negative views associated with pagans.

User avatar
Cill Airne
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15512
Founded: Jul 28, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cill Airne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:00 pm

Phocidaea wrote:My other question: why are these religions so disproportionately popular on the internet? The gap between actual ratios of pagans in the world and the ratio of paganists on the internet makes the disproportionate amount of atheists on the internet look downright representative of reality.

For this we have to look at some recent Pagan history, which is something many do not know outside of the pagan community.

As late as the 1940's paganism (which was in its early stages of Contemporary paganism, but still known) was very much so not welcome. Anything related to it had a very negative connotation. Go forward two decades and Gerald Gardner had popularised Wicca, and Ross Nichols founded the OBOD (Order of Bards, Ovates, and Druids). Paganism began to become more known and accepted. However, it still had a negative connotation to it. This is a time when pagans would publish things like, "Friends of the Path/Way (or other terms) ___ Person is giving a lecture on _____." To get the message out there. In the 80s and 90s we see an emergence of pagan newsletters, newspapers, &c. In the 2000s many people begin to go online, and it has allowed for pagans, around the world, to discuss their beliefs, meet, &c. I think, because it is a safe(r) place, and a place we can all meet to discuss our beliefs and practices with others, Pagans go online. However, I think its because many pagans are not open to strangers, it just seems like theres less around you then there are on the internet.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

User avatar
Faolinn
Minister
 
Posts: 2054
Founded: Aug 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Faolinn » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:05 pm

I am an eclectic pagan with heavy thelemite leanings.
"And the Gods said down with tyrants and it was good."-Me
One of the religious left.
Research supports cynicism
My ideology.

I support: Deism, Evolution, Pro Choice, Feminism, Environmentalism, Communal Anarchism, Cosmopolitanism, Transcendentalism, Occultism, Anarcho Syndicalism, Mutualism, Legalizing Illegal substances, Sexual Freedom, LGBT Rights, Freedom of Speech

I oppose: Fascism, Objectivism, Determinism, Nihlism, Evangelism, Anarcho Capitalism, Atheism (militant), Conservatism, Monarchy, Totalitarianism,Might = Right, Timocracy, Plutocracy, Oligarchy, Materialism, Creationism, Transhumanism, Legalism, Nationalism, Imperialsm, Racism

I disagree with but have some respect for: Secular Humanism, Agnosticism

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24158
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:07 pm

A friend once framed it this way for me.

Deism is to monotheism
as
Pantheism is to paganism.

Would you all agree with that? :p



FOR CLARIFICATION:

A lot of monotheistic religions start from the Deist premise (god created the universe) and then add a bunch of stuff specific to their religion.

Pagan religions contend the universe (or parts of it) are god (Pantheism), and then add a bunch of stuff specific to their religion.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Special Snowflake Syndrome
A malady affecting a significant portion of the world's population wherein the afflicted will demand special treatment, conduct themselves with a ludicrous, unfounded sense of entitlement, and generally make the lives of everyone around them that much more miserable.

The danger of this disease is that the sufferers rarely, if ever, know that they have contracted it, and continue about their merry way under the assumption that EVERYONE ELSE is the problem.

This condition, if left untreated, can radically alter the carrier's demeanor, to include any of the following: a complete devolution to child-like behavior, temper tantrums, and/or fits of narcissistic rage.

User avatar
Cill Airne
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15512
Founded: Jul 28, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cill Airne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:14 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:A friend once framed it this way for me.

Deism is to monotheism
as
Pantheism is to paganism.

Would you all agree with that? :p



FOR CLARIFICATION:

A lot of monotheistic religions start from the Deist premise (god created the universe) and then add a bunch of stuff specific to their religion.

Pagan religions contend the universe (or parts of it) are god (Pantheism), and then add a bunch of stuff specific to their religion.

No, I would not agree with this. I do not believe the universe, or parts of it are god. I, however, do not believe my gods created the universe either. The universe created them, just as it created us but when I make this statement i mean in a similar sense to evolution and the big bang theory.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

User avatar
Phocidaea
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5246
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Phocidaea » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:15 pm

Dralonia wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:My other question: why are these religions so disproportionately popular on the internet? The gap between actual ratios of pagans in the world and the ratio of paganists on the internet makes the disproportionate amount of atheists on the internet look downright representative of reality.


I don't really think it is that disproportionate, I know quite a few pagans outside of the internet. Most are just rather quiet about it in society due to the negative views associated with pagans.


I've never, ever, met someone who said they were a pagan, or any non-mainstream religion ("mainstream" here referring to "Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/Jew/Muslim/Atheist"), in real life. But I've met a lot of internet users calling themselves pagans, satanists, some obscure old religion, or pretty much any other obscure faith you can think of. I'm just not sure why.
Call me Phoca.

For: retracted alveolar approximant rhotic, vowel reduction, pronouncing clusters in full, palatalization of /t/ and /d/ before approximants, mid unstressed non-reduced vowels, cot-caught merger, flapping /t/ and /d/ before unstressed vowels, ripping off HetRio and incoherent mild stress-timing
Against: not using these when speaking other European languages, Malloria and Riva continuing to be a mod, fellow Americans minding my accent

User avatar
The USOT
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5862
Founded: Mar 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The USOT » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:17 pm

Cill Airne wrote:
I. I am not a Celtic Wiccan, I am very much so a Druid with quite a few Celtic Reconstructionist influences. I was not introduced to any other pagan path until I was around 16, a few years after I had started practicing my path.
II. I mention them in the OP, the "games" I play as a child, and my belief in the spirits, &c.
III. Yes, I certainly do believe that the spirits, deities, and Sí that I believe in are real in a physical sense.

I should perhaps have better clarified. You said that you played games, but what were these games?
Eco-Friendly Green Cyborg Santa Claus

Contrary to the propaganda, we live in probably the least materialistic culture in history. If we cared about the things of the world, we would treat them quite differently. We would be concerned with their materiality. We would be interested in their beginnings and their ends, before and after they left our grasp.

Peter Timmerman, “Defending Materialism"

User avatar
Cill Airne
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15512
Founded: Jul 28, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cill Airne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:20 pm

Phocidaea wrote:
Dralonia wrote:
I don't really think it is that disproportionate, I know quite a few pagans outside of the internet. Most are just rather quiet about it in society due to the negative views associated with pagans.


I've never, ever, met someone who said they were a pagan, or any non-mainstream religion ("mainstream" here referring to "Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/Jew/Muslim/Atheist"), in real life. But I've met a lot of internet users calling themselves pagans, satanists, some obscure old religion, or pretty much any other obscure faith you can think of. I'm just not sure why.

Its because most pagans do not openly tell people about their beliefs (though we're getting to the point that more and more pagans are becoming open about their beliefs). You have probably met quite a few without knowing it.

People are just more open about themselves on the internet
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

User avatar
Dralonia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Jul 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dralonia » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:21 pm

Phocidaea wrote:
Dralonia wrote:
I don't really think it is that disproportionate, I know quite a few pagans outside of the internet. Most are just rather quiet about it in society due to the negative views associated with pagans.


I've never, ever, met someone who said they were a pagan, or any non-mainstream religion ("mainstream" here referring to "Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/Jew/Muslim/Atheist"), in real life. But I've met a lot of internet users calling themselves pagans, satanists, some obscure old religion, or pretty much any other obscure faith you can think of. I'm just not sure why.


Well there's also the point that the internet allows you to meet people from all over the world and not merely in your community, and there is also probably many people that deem themselves satanic just to get attention. It is not an overly popular religion, but there are people that truly believe in it. I live near a very liberal town that even has a Wiccan store so I tend to me some pagans.

User avatar
Cill Airne
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15512
Founded: Jul 28, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cill Airne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:23 pm

The USOT wrote:
Cill Airne wrote:
I. I am not a Celtic Wiccan, I am very much so a Druid with quite a few Celtic Reconstructionist influences. I was not introduced to any other pagan path until I was around 16, a few years after I had started practicing my path.
II. I mention them in the OP, the "games" I play as a child, and my belief in the spirits, &c.
III. Yes, I certainly do believe that the spirits, deities, and Sí that I believe in are real in a physical sense.

I should perhaps have better clarified. You said that you played games, but what were these games?

Well, I thought of them as games. They were just various things, but they always involved talking to the spirits. For example, I would start out by saying that I call upon the spirits, and they would repeat what I said. They did not like it, I thought it was fun. As a result at my first, proper ritual at a a druid grove, I realised a lot of the things there quite resembled the things I liked to do as a kid.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

User avatar
Vazeckta
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Aug 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Vazeckta » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:52 pm

I'm a Christian, but I have a very close friend of mine that is Wiccan. We have some very interesting discussions on the topic. She's very nice and all, and it's not a violent religion or anything. I don't respect it in the sense that I believe those who practice are saved (by my own belief), but I respect that those who practice have the choice and that they usually aren't arses about it. I can't speak of other Pagans because I haven't known any.
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.72
I would probably vote with the American Libertarian Party.
I'm a Christian.
Likes:Capitalism, Classical liberalism, religion, state secularism,gay marriage, charity, God
Dislikes:Left-wing economics, statism, authoritarianism, theocracy, state atheism, social security, welfare, UN, DPRK, PRC
Meh:Teetotalism, pro-choice, EU, legalizing drugs
Blazedtown wrote:
Gladia wrote:I hope you two don't plan on procreating.

Why? A family cross burning is a great bonding activity.

User avatar
Acrainia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 597
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Acrainia » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:23 pm

I have no problem with paganism, although the whole spell casting thing some groups believe in is a little too much for me.

Pray to whatever spirits you like, but try to turn me into a newt and things will get 1692ish really fast.

Next

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aggicificicerous, Artaeon, Baltenstein, Bralia, Brickistan, Calorax, Constantinopolis, Cornia, DnalweN acilbupeR, Dogs of War, Donut section, Dyakovo, England-Ireland, Fanosolia, Gidgetisms, Hanchu, Ifreann, ImperialistSalvia, Independent State AF, Mengrath, Norilova, Obeyistan, Olivaero, Qandaristan, Satosia, Shove Piggy Shove, Sklavinia, The Grim Reaper, The Hospitaller Knights, Transoxthraxia, WestRedMaple, Wolf Pack Purity, Xemnarius

Remove ads