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Taking vs Trading

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Xerographica
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Taking vs Trading

Postby Xerographica » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:20 pm

If aliens arrived on our planet...would they want to trade with us or would they just take whatever resources they wanted? It's my firm belief that they would want to trade with us. Here's my logic...

In order for an alien civilization to advance to the point that it could actually visit us...they would already have learned that progress depends on trading rather than taking. This is because taking destroys individual foresight and if you destroy individual foresight then you hinder progress.

In very simple terms...two heads are better than one. We all have unique perspectives so we can see numerous uses of the same exact resource. Trading integrates perspectives which allows resources to be put to their most productive uses...while taking does the opposite. It seems highly unlikely that an alien civilization could efficiently allocate all the resources necessary to visit out planet...yet fail to appreciate that their progress was a direct result of integrating everybody's unique perspectives.

Here on planet Earth we still haven't figured out that our progress depends on integrating people's perspectives. If we had figured this out then taxpayers would be able to choose which government organizations they gave their taxes to...aka pragmatarianism. Once we understand why people's perspectives should matter...then we'll allow taxpayers to trade their taxes for public goods that they value...our rate of progress will increase...and visiting inhabited planets will happen sooner rather than later. With the understanding of progress under our belts...we would see the value in trading with the aliens rather than taking their resources by force.

This concept was the point of Bastiat's Parable of the Broken Window...

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented. - Bastiat, What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen

Right now we allow 538 congresspeople to spend around $4 trillion dollars. Did they labor to earn that money? No...they did not. Taxpayers did. When we allow congress to spend money that they did not earn...the perspectives of millions and millions of taxpayers are blocked from determining how their money should be distributed in the public sector. As a result...progress is severely hindered. Yet, people see roads and schools...so they see their tax dollars at work. But they are simply seeing the SEEN...anybody can do that. The challenge is to try and see the UNSEEN. The unseen is the outcome of applying millions and millions of our most productive perspectives to the public sector.

The next time you watch a movie in which the aliens take the resources they want by force...or vice versa...hopefully you'll understand that what you're watching is merely a reflection of our society's lack of understanding regarding the correlation between perspectives and progress.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:23 pm

Sooo... what should we discuss?
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Nidaria
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Postby Nidaria » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:25 pm

In all likelihood, alien races are so advanced that they would gain very little or nothing by either taking from us or trading with us. Even our raw materials might not be any use to them. Nevertheless, I appreciate your post as it provides valuable insight regarding economics and foreign policy.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:26 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:Sooo... what should we discuss?

The simple miracle of anarchism?
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Imsogone
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Postby Imsogone » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:28 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:Sooo... what should we discuss?


The ethics of alien venture capitalists?
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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:30 pm

Xerographica wrote:If aliens arrived on our planet...would they want to trade with us or would they just take whatever resources they wanted? It's my firm belief that they would want to trade with us. Here's my logic...

In order for an alien civilization to advance to the point that it could actually visit us...they would already have learned that progress depends on trading rather than taking. This is because taking destroys individual foresight and if you destroy individual foresight then you hinder progress.


Any civilization that has the ability to travel between the stars will no need, and more importantly, no desire for trading across interstellar distances. They may trade at home, but there's no point trading with us; there is nothing valuable enough in the universe that would make strapping it to a slower-than-light starship and sending it on a ridiculously resource-expensive journey that would take it hundreds of years, if not thousands, to reach its destination worthwhile.

Anything a given civilization needs it can find in its solar system or on its homeworld for orders of magnitude less cost.
Last edited by Avenio on Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:33 pm

Imsogone wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:Sooo... what should we discuss?


The ethics of alien venture capitalists?

I read a story ages ago where aliens did arrive, and they were friendly, gave us some cool things, traded for tons and tons of resources, then left. Two days later the things they'd traded us turned out to be fakes that only worked for the time the aliens were here. It was a con game, and now we were without all the stuff they'd taken. It ends with earth scientists developing our own interstellar technology based on hints in the stuff the aliens had left, so we could go looking for them.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:35 pm

it is impossible to know how an alien civilization would view our planet and its inhabitants. they might not even notice us.
whatever

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:38 pm

Avenio wrote:
Xerographica wrote:If aliens arrived on our planet...would they want to trade with us or would they just take whatever resources they wanted? It's my firm belief that they would want to trade with us. Here's my logic...

In order for an alien civilization to advance to the point that it could actually visit us...they would already have learned that progress depends on trading rather than taking. This is because taking destroys individual foresight and if you destroy individual foresight then you hinder progress.


Any civilization that has the ability to travel between the stars will no need, and more importantly, no desire for trading across interstellar distances. They may trade at home, but there's no point trading with us; there is nothing valuable enough in the universe that would make strapping it to a slower-than-light starship and sending it on a ridiculously resource-expensive journey that would take it hundreds of years, if not thousands, to reach its destination worthwhile.

Anything a given civilization needs it can find in its solar system or on its homeworld for orders of magnitude less cost.


This.

And if we cannot find it, we can maybe create it. Yes, it will require a shitload of energy, but when you can do interstellar space travel, then you probably can also just create mass from other energy forms.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:05 pm

Let's pretend that we all thought alike. We'd see the same resource and think of the same exact use. It would be impossible for us to make any progress. Given that we all think differently...we see the same resource and think of numerous different uses. People who really think outside the box manage to think of new and innovative uses for resources.

Given that aliens managed to progress to the point that they were able to create a spaceship...it follows that they are all unique individuals with different perspectives. It also follows that by the time they are capable of creating such a spaceship they would have realized that allowing people to use their resources as they see fit is necessary to make any progress.

Now, a few of you have mentioned that the aliens might be too far advanced to find any value in trading with us. Yet, if we understand that different perspectives are necessary to see new and innovative uses for resources...and we agree that our perspectives will perhaps be very different to that of the aliens...then it stands to reason that exchanging perspectives...aka "trading"...will be mutually beneficial despite the disparity in development between our two civilizations.
Last edited by Xerographica on Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Norsklow
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:07 pm

What resources would spacefarers want? They'd be more likely after a concept, or a life form, or a DNA strand. But why travel a gazillion miles for a bit of tin or oil?
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:10 pm

Norsklow wrote:What resources would spacefarers want? They'd be more likely after a concept, or a life form, or a DNA strand. But why travel a gazillion miles for a bit of tin or oil?

People used to travel a gazillion ... okay, hundreds of miles for "a bit of tin." Have you ever been to Cornwall in the winter? Exactly. And we used to get some olive oil from Greece that traveled quite a long way in amphoras.

If they have the technology, why not use it to go have a look around, and having found worlds with civilizations, why not try to strike a bargain with them?
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Wisconsin9
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:10 pm

What would the point be for either? If they could get to our star system, then they'd be hundreds of years ahead of us technologically. Our religion and culture would probably mean next to nothing to them, and any supplies they wanted they could get from any of the other trillion lifeless rocks floating around the galaxy.
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Norsklow
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:14 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Norsklow wrote:What resources would spacefarers want? They'd be more likely after a concept, or a life form, or a DNA strand. But why travel a gazillion miles for a bit of tin or oil?

People used to travel a gazillion ... okay, hundreds of miles for "a bit of tin." Have you ever been to Cornwall in the winter? Exactly. And we used to get some olive oil from Greece that traveled quite a long way in amphoras.

If they have the technology, why not use it to go have a look around, and having found worlds with civilizations, why not try to strike a bargain with them?



8+ years round trip assuming light speed and the nearest star. That's just a bit longer that from Mennefer or Akkad to PWNT to put it mildly. What might they require - and what might they offer in return?
Joseph Stalin, 20 million plus dead -Mao-Tse-Dong, 40 million plus dead - Pol Pot, 2 million dead -Kim-Il-Sung, 5 million dead - Fidel Castro, 1 million dead.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing"

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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:15 pm

Wisconsin9 wrote:What would the point be for either? If they could get to our star system, then they'd be hundreds of years ahead of us technologically. Our religion and culture would probably mean next to nothing to them, and any supplies they wanted they could get from any of the other trillion lifeless rocks floating around the galaxy.

Maybe they're curious. Maybe they've never had a cheeseburger or fish & chips or pad thai or a nice curry take-away. Maybe they have things they like to teach others.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
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Imsogone
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Postby Imsogone » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:17 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:What would the point be for either? If they could get to our star system, then they'd be hundreds of years ahead of us technologically. Our religion and culture would probably mean next to nothing to them, and any supplies they wanted they could get from any of the other trillion lifeless rocks floating around the galaxy.

Maybe they're curious. Maybe they've never had a cheeseburger or fish & chips or pad thai or a nice curry take-away. Maybe they have things they like to teach others.


They just want to see "what's over yonder". Maybe they're the galactic version of mountain men, coming to trap furs and marry native girls.
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Norsklow
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:17 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:What would the point be for either? If they could get to our star system, then they'd be hundreds of years ahead of us technologically. Our religion and culture would probably mean next to nothing to them, and any supplies they wanted they could get from any of the other trillion lifeless rocks floating around the galaxy.

Maybe they're curious. Maybe they've never had a cheeseburger or fish & chips or pad thai or a nice curry take-away. Maybe they have things they like to teach others.


Concepts. My point exactly :D
Joseph Stalin, 20 million plus dead -Mao-Tse-Dong, 40 million plus dead - Pol Pot, 2 million dead -Kim-Il-Sung, 5 million dead - Fidel Castro, 1 million dead.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing"

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Postby Wikkiwallana » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Xerographica wrote:Let's pretend that we all thought alike. We'd see the same resource and think of the same exact use. It would be impossible for us to make any progress. Given that we all think differently...we see the same resource and think of numerous different uses. People who really think outside the box manage to think of new and innovative uses for resources.

Given that aliens managed to progress to the point that they were able to create a spaceship...it follows that they are all unique individuals with different perspectives. It also follows that by the time they are capable of creating such a spaceship they would have realized that allowing people to use their resources as they see fit is necessary to make any progress.

Now, a few of you have mentioned that the aliens might be too far advanced to find any value in trading with us. Yet, if we understand that different perspectives are necessary to see new and innovative uses for resources...and we agree that our perspectives will perhaps be very different to that of the aliens...then it stands to reason that exchanging perspectives...aka "trading"...will be mutually beneficial despite the disparity in development between our two civilizations.

So, we must acknowledge that different perspectives are necessary by accepting yours as universally right?
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:20 pm

Imsogone wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Maybe they're curious. Maybe they've never had a cheeseburger or fish & chips or pad thai or a nice curry take-away. Maybe they have things they like to teach others.


They just want to see "what's over yonder". Maybe they're the galactic version of mountain men, coming to trap furs and marry native girls.

Because earth girls are ... well, you know.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:21 pm

Wikkiwallana wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Let's pretend that we all thought alike. We'd see the same resource and think of the same exact use. It would be impossible for us to make any progress. Given that we all think differently...we see the same resource and think of numerous different uses. People who really think outside the box manage to think of new and innovative uses for resources.

Given that aliens managed to progress to the point that they were able to create a spaceship...it follows that they are all unique individuals with different perspectives. It also follows that by the time they are capable of creating such a spaceship they would have realized that allowing people to use their resources as they see fit is necessary to make any progress.

Now, a few of you have mentioned that the aliens might be too far advanced to find any value in trading with us. Yet, if we understand that different perspectives are necessary to see new and innovative uses for resources...and we agree that our perspectives will perhaps be very different to that of the aliens...then it stands to reason that exchanging perspectives...aka "trading"...will be mutually beneficial despite the disparity in development between our two civilizations.

So, we must acknowledge that different perspectives are necessary by accepting yours as universally right?

Of course. He quoted Bastiat, after all. There is no disputing Bastiat.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:21 pm

Avenio wrote:
Xerographica wrote:If aliens arrived on our planet...would they want to trade with us or would they just take whatever resources they wanted? It's my firm belief that they would want to trade with us. Here's my logic...

In order for an alien civilization to advance to the point that it could actually visit us...they would already have learned that progress depends on trading rather than taking. This is because taking destroys individual foresight and if you destroy individual foresight then you hinder progress.


Any civilization that has the ability to travel between the stars will no need, and more importantly, no desire for trading across interstellar distances. They may trade at home, but there's no point trading with us; there is nothing valuable enough in the universe that would make strapping it to a slower-than-light starship and sending it on a ridiculously resource-expensive journey that would take it hundreds of years, if not thousands, to reach its destination worthwhile.

Anything a given civilization needs it can find in its solar system or on its homeworld for orders of magnitude less cost.

What if their ship needed supplies repairs, or there was a taste for primitive civilization's art back home?
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:24 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Avenio wrote:
Any civilization that has the ability to travel between the stars will no need, and more importantly, no desire for trading across interstellar distances. They may trade at home, but there's no point trading with us; there is nothing valuable enough in the universe that would make strapping it to a slower-than-light starship and sending it on a ridiculously resource-expensive journey that would take it hundreds of years, if not thousands, to reach its destination worthwhile.

Anything a given civilization needs it can find in its solar system or on its homeworld for orders of magnitude less cost.

What if their ship needed supplies repairs, or there was a taste for primitive civilization's art back home?

The art market, definitely. I'd travel a gazillion miles for that.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:25 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:What if their ship needed supplies repairs, or there was a taste for primitive civilization's art back home?

The art market, definitely. I'd travel a gazillion miles for that.

If humans are willing to pay millions for work from hundreds of years ago, why not aliens?
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Norsklow
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Postby Norsklow » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:26 pm

Safaris. Head-hunting. Political experiments. Exiled Extremists.
Joseph Stalin, 20 million plus dead -Mao-Tse-Dong, 40 million plus dead - Pol Pot, 2 million dead -Kim-Il-Sung, 5 million dead - Fidel Castro, 1 million dead.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, with so little, for so long, we are now qualified to do anything, with nothing"

Don't call me Beny! Am I your Father or something? http://paanluelwel2011.wordpress.com/20 ... honorable/
And I way too young to be Beny bith.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:27 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The art market, definitely. I'd travel a gazillion miles for that.

If humans are willing to pay millions for work from hundreds of years ago, why not aliens?

Exactly. We should start making stuff for the interstellar trade now, so we're prepared.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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