NATION

PASSWORD

If you deny man-made global warming...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Poelos
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 6
Founded: Feb 07, 2010
Ex-Nation

If you deny man-made global warming...

Postby Poelos » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:57 pm

There's a question I have for people who believe that humans are not affecting Earth's climate. This has nothing to do with their arguments surrounding the reason why Earth's climate is changing. Scientists who believe in the existence of man-made global warming make up a clear cut majority. Is it even possible that an entire field is being paid off by an industry that has practically just left the womb? If this is not the case, then what is? Are they all stupid and gullible?

User avatar
Galloism
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23293
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:04 pm

Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

I suspect they feel that the common opinion today is as wrong as that common opinion was then.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.



User avatar
Metanih
Senator
 
Posts: 3888
Founded: Jan 21, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Metanih » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:06 pm

If you deny man-made global warming, then you are simply doing it for idiocy, or greed. There is no other options, as even if it wasn't true, then there is no harm in trying to prevent it.
Nationstates Ninja
Second to Reploid Productions...
Everyone should watch this excellent show, and the movie Serenity.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303461/

If you don't know me well, talk to me more. I have a DeviantArt account here. http://merin593.deviantart.com
Also, I am a pansexual genderfluid individual. If you don't know what that means, look it up. I deal with enough people asking in real life. . ;)

User avatar
New Heathera
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1058
Founded: Oct 21, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Heathera » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:10 pm

I have a feeling people who deny man-made global warming (including scientists) are doing so because people don't like to believe in bad news. If there's a way out, a way to deny the bad news and believe it's all right and we can't do anything about what's happening, people are going to jump on it.

User avatar
The Merchant Republics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8280
Founded: Oct 25, 2010
Anarchy

Postby The Merchant Republics » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:13 pm

Metanih wrote:If you deny man-made global warming, then you are simply doing it for idiocy, or greed. There is no other options, as even if it wasn't true, then there is no harm in trying to prevent it.


Several trillions of dollars of harm, if we're looking for complete carbon neutrality. The possible cost of the modern economy.

Not that mind you the consequences of not acting aren't higher, sustainability should be our aim though, not stopping global warming, at this point, even if we could stop it, the actions required of us are far beyond our actual capabilities, with the science available today. Miracles may happen, so long as the science is focused that way, but actual requirements are so drastic very few could realistically implement them.
Your Resident Gentleman and Libertarian; returning always to NSG like the beleaguered spouse of a cheating layabout, only with poorer taste.
Christian Libertarian Autarchist: like an Anarchist but with more "Aut".
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-8.55)
Economic: Left/Right (7.55)
We are the premiere of civilization, the beacon of liberty, the font of prosperity and the ever illuminating light of culture in this hellish universe.
In short: Elitist Wicked Cultured Free Market Anarchists living in a Diesel-Deco World.

Now fearing: the sun, because it's a giant ball of explosions, and I will never be able to outrun it.
Factbook (FT)|Art Gallery|Embassy Program

User avatar
New Heathera
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1058
Founded: Oct 21, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Heathera » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:55 pm

The Merchant Republics wrote:
Metanih wrote:If you deny man-made global warming, then you are simply doing it for idiocy, or greed. There is no other options, as even if it wasn't true, then there is no harm in trying to prevent it.


Several trillions of dollars of harm, if we're looking for complete carbon neutrality. The possible cost of the modern economy.

Not that mind you the consequences of not acting aren't higher, sustainability should be our aim though, not stopping global warming, at this point, even if we could stop it, the actions required of us are far beyond our actual capabilities, with the science available today. Miracles may happen, so long as the science is focused that way, but actual requirements are so drastic very few could realistically implement them.


So money (even in the triliions) suddenly becomes more important than the entire population (human and animal) of Earth?

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21490
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:01 pm

Well?

There are a great many people who make a great deal of money by the way things are. They don't want to possibly loose that. They employ "spin doctors" to stave of possible changes.

Luckily; people in other nations are addressing it. The US will continue it's growing trend of catching up.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Augarundus
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6812
Founded: Dec 22, 2008
Anarchy

Postby Augarundus » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:07 pm

Galloism wrote:Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

Speak for your bloody self.
Libertarian Purity Test Score: 160
Capitalism is always the answer. Whenever there's a problem in capitalism, you just need some more capitalism. If the solution isn't capitalism, then it's not really a problem. If your capitalism gets damaged, you just need to throw some capitalism on it and get on with your life.

User avatar
New Heathera
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1058
Founded: Oct 21, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Heathera » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:08 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Well?

There are a great many people who make a great deal of money by the way things are. They don't want to possibly loose that. They employ "spin doctors" to stave of possible changes.

Luckily; people in other nations are addressing it. The US will continue it's growing trend of catching up.


You have done a great job of posting what I believe in a way I didn't think of. I think all that's quoted above is true. It's like a cigar company using doctors to tell people cigar's aren't unhealthy.
Last edited by New Heathera on Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Galloism
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23293
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:10 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Galloism wrote:Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

Speak for your bloody self.

Well, I did say "most".

I would say that, given there are a number of black combat pilots, they must be clearly capable.

However, this is not the topic of this thread.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.



User avatar
West Vandengaarde
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1717
Founded: Jan 14, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby West Vandengaarde » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:31 pm

Scientists aren't unbiased paragons of infallibility.
"Conscious of my own weakness, I can only seek fervently the guidance of the Ruler of the Universe, and, relying on His all-powerful aid, do my best to restore Union and peace to a suffering people, and to establish and guard their liberties and rights." - George B. McClellan

User avatar
The Merchant Republics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8280
Founded: Oct 25, 2010
Anarchy

Postby The Merchant Republics » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:34 pm

New Heathera wrote:
The Merchant Republics wrote:
Several trillions of dollars of harm, if we're looking for complete carbon neutrality. The possible cost of the modern economy.

Not that mind you the consequences of not acting aren't higher, sustainability should be our aim though, not stopping global warming, at this point, even if we could stop it, the actions required of us are far beyond our actual capabilities, with the science available today. Miracles may happen, so long as the science is focused that way, but actual requirements are so drastic very few could realistically implement them.


So money (even in the triliions) suddenly becomes more important than the entire population (human and animal) of Earth?


Money sustains the entire human population of the Earth. When I speak of "trillions of dollars of harm" I don't mean, us all collectively putting $10 dollars into the save the world fund. I'm talking about production dollars. As in, billions of dollars that once were spent on many things not just luxuries but indeed necessities will have to be spent instead on saving the earth.

For us Westerners, this is easy, and in the West, the targets for global warming reduction are achievable in a real sense, the cost would be mostly to our luxuries and only for a short time. However for the developing world, the sort of things that sustainability requires will mean that the less not more of the world's poor will have access to electricity, motor vehicles, regular food supplies, cheap and affordable commercial goods.

Unfortunately if only the rich developed world reaches our targets, the world will still be boiled by the poor developing nations. They can't realistically implement Kyoto, they can't realistically stop their emmissions without high, very high human cost.
Your Resident Gentleman and Libertarian; returning always to NSG like the beleaguered spouse of a cheating layabout, only with poorer taste.
Christian Libertarian Autarchist: like an Anarchist but with more "Aut".
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-8.55)
Economic: Left/Right (7.55)
We are the premiere of civilization, the beacon of liberty, the font of prosperity and the ever illuminating light of culture in this hellish universe.
In short: Elitist Wicked Cultured Free Market Anarchists living in a Diesel-Deco World.

Now fearing: the sun, because it's a giant ball of explosions, and I will never be able to outrun it.
Factbook (FT)|Art Gallery|Embassy Program

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21490
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:36 pm

West Vandengaarde wrote:Scientists aren't unbiased paragons of infallibility.


Without doubt. But, that's not a damning claim.

You make questionable claims and other scientists will jump all over you.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
New Sapienta
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9298
Founded: Sep 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Sapienta » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:38 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Galloism wrote:Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

Speak for your bloody self.

You don't think blacks can pilot a plane?

User avatar
1000 Cats
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5510
Founded: Jul 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby 1000 Cats » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:42 pm

It's not really a question of whether or not we're contributing to climate change; it's a question of how much. The simple physics of emissions and the greenhouse effect say that we are undoubtedly doing so, and the amount of emissions we are giving off as a species is very high even in comparison to other events deniers like to say, such as volcanoes and wild megafauna, neither of which give off the same amount we do. We are additionally depriving the world of organisms that control the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. I draw my own lines.
Your friendly neighborhood zoophile. I'm here to answer questions. Also, we have a region: Zoo!

Norstal wrote:You are a hatiater: one who radiates hate.


Meryuma wrote:No one is more of a cat person than 1000 Cats!


FST wrote:Any sexual desires which can be satiated within a healthy and consensual way should be freed from shame. Bizarre kinks and fetishes are acceptable and nothing to be ashamed of as long as they are acted out in a context where everyone consents and no one is hurt.
Factbook/Q&A | RP | Conlang | Short Story

User avatar
Aersoldorf
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Apr 04, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Aersoldorf » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:44 pm

I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21490
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:46 pm

Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening


Meh. He makes for good fluff reading on a plane trip.

Is it the usual where he starts spinning a yarn and then it feels like he gets bored with it and rushes to finish the story?
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14883
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Trotskylvania » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:47 pm

Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.
Modern industrial civilization has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilization has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits, in the classic formulation. Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist, with whatever suffering and injustice that it entails, as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an infinite garbage can.
Noam Chomsky

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21490
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:52 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.


Oh I don't know. Andromeda strain was ok.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14883
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Trotskylvania » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:53 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.


Oh I don't know. Andromeda strain was ok.

Clearly he needs to stick to fiction and avoid all allegory.
Modern industrial civilization has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilization has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits, in the classic formulation. Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist, with whatever suffering and injustice that it entails, as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an infinite garbage can.
Noam Chomsky

User avatar
Nukeobis
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 130
Founded: Feb 26, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Nukeobis » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:55 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.

Gore is an oaf. Global warming is not happening/effected by man. No amount of socialist taxing schemes + hypnotizing in schools is going to change that.

User avatar
Bluth Corporation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6849
Founded: Apr 15, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Bluth Corporation » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:55 pm

Well, he's dead, so...
The Huge Mistake of Bluth Corporation
Capital: Newport Beach, Shostakovich | Starting Quarterback: Peyton Manning #18 | Company President: Michael Bluth

Champions of: World Bowl X


You should really be using Slackware

User avatar
Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 75447
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Father Knows Best State

Postby Farnhamia » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:57 pm

Bluth Corporation wrote:Well, he's dead, so...

So we can say whatever we want about him.
In support of Arch
The real question is how can you be a man and not be a feminist? ~ Neo Art
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
Unjustly modded August 13, 2013. Beware of dates with 13 in them.
Also, bonobos.
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
My favorite anarcho-capitalist quote: "Im Bendira, ancap troll, nice to meet you"
Two novels can change a bookish 14-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21490
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:57 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Oh I don't know. Andromeda strain was ok.

Clearly he needs to stick to fiction and avoid all allegory.


Or he got lucky. ;)

Like I said he is good fluff for long plane trips. Congo, sphere, jurassic park, eaters of the dead, twister, a few others. Something to read once and toss......
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14883
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Trotskylvania » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:57 pm

Nukeobis wrote:
Trotskylvania wrote:Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.

Gore is an oaf. Global warming is not happening/effected by man. No amount of socialist taxing schemes + hypnotizing in schools is going to change that.

No one mentioned Al Gore until you brought him up bucko. Gore's oafishness has no bearing on the discussion, as he's a celebrity, not a scientist. The real scientists who study weather and climate have amassed mountains of data that point to one conclusion: climate change is happening and we're driving it. The only thing left is a discussion of how to proceed to mitigate the damage.
Modern industrial civilization has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilization has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits, in the classic formulation. Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist, with whatever suffering and injustice that it entails, as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an infinite garbage can.
Noam Chomsky

Next

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Anglo-California, Arko-Oklahoma, Bing [Bot], Blazedtown, Byzanticus, Ciro Ventura, Danton, Elemental North, Grinning Dragon, Gun Manufacturers, Ieperithem, Isokano, Lexicor, Neoconstantius, New haven america, Othelos, Pagan Hungary, Rhinosaur Jones, Ridersyl, Soldati senza confini, South Lebanon Army, The Great Korean Empire, The Liberated Territories, The Scientific States, The Shrek Republic, The Sith Race, Unified Hispaniola, United States of The One Percent, Vancon, Washington Resistance Army

Remove ads