[Region Locking] Something needs to be changed.

[Fischistan]

I'm sure that there are people out there whom are able to open the required pages and do all the scrolling within the alloted time. Should we stick a system requirements badge on NS? 30 Mbps connection and a dual-core processor?

What? I don't even have a 30Mbps connection, but I can use NS fine.

Have you ever spotted successfully against tbh or tbr?

[Sichuan Pepper]

Back on topic I would support either a shuffle of regions and the removal of the region order list or an artificial variance of update.
Both would be ideal however one of the other I think does not impact too greatly on the whole of NS and evens out game play somewhat for the R and D game.

As to the matter of sharing WA by multiple nations at the same time I can pursue that through a GHR and ask for clear ruling.

[Goobergunchia]

The off-topic discussion about shared WA nations has been split off and locked.

I will quote one post from that thread that is mostly relevant back here:

Defending against coordinated raids is nearly impossible because we can't refresh fast enough to respond within the 2 second window of opportunity we have, (the whole pre-endorsing thing plays into this as well, but that ship has already sailed.) Then after the defense has failed, we get locked out by passwording the region costing minimal influence. And when we finally are able to get an SC resolution passed to open the region up, we have to face multiple people able to eject us during the liberation attempt. Does this not seem like we are playing with a stacked deck now?

Honestly, in the light of all this the complaints about defenders' supposed vast and overwhelming numbers seem disingenuous.

[Guy]

I could possibly go for a shuffling of the update in "blocks"

Just to give some info on what Abbey is talking about.

This is a suggestion which has been circulated around a bit the last few days, and has the support of people from both sides of the game, including many tag-raiders from TBH.

Instead of update occurring region-by-region, blocks of a few regions would be created. For example, the first block of update could be composed of the following regions:

Block 1
Cat Burglars
Band Camp
The Well
Australia

While you would know the order of the blocks and the regions in each block, the order of update within the block would be completely randomised. Each such block of regions would be only 5-10 seconds of update. This would ensure that raiders would not be able to ensure exact pinpoint accuracy, but the update order would work in their favour in many cases.

I understand that this may be difficult (if not completely impractical) to code, but it's something which I've seen almost unanimous support for and I would greatly enhance the quality of update raids.

[Ballotonia]

I understand that this may be difficult (if not completely impractical) to code, but it's something which I've seen almost unanimous support for and I would greatly enhance the quality of update raids.

Shuffling blocks of X regions is trivial. But you're talking about a certain number of seconds instead, which isn't feasible since some regions take well over a minute to update all by themselves. The largest take more than 3 minutes. It would make a huge difference for a region to update just before, or after, The North Pacific.

But essentially you're asking for artificial variance to be added to the update speed, right? That can take many forms. Shuffling blocks of regions is only one of them.

Ballotonia

[Guy]

Maybe large regions could be isolated in a block of their own? They are usually not targets for update raids, and since they take so long to update it'd be irrelevant whether there are any more regions in their block.

Ballo, if you have any other ideas with the same effect I think we'd all be glad to hear them

[Sichuan Pepper]

If each block was only 5-10 seconds I imagine we would still see 2-3 second invasions....not defend-able at that speed. Greater variance would be needed or larger blocks.
The problem still remains that the order is known and time can be predicted. Separation of the large regions would further remove the slight variance we get now. All invaders need to know is what a block consists of and place a trigger in each. This solution just seems to make it worse if anything.

[Ballotonia]

Maybe large regions could be isolated in a block of their own? They are usually not targets for update raids, and since they take so long to update it'd be irrelevant whether there are any more regions in their block.

Ballo, if you have any other ideas with the same effect I think we'd all be glad to hear them

Discussing implementation details isn't supposed to happen in public So, best is to simply keep feature / change requests to describing what the desired system behavior should be. That's also what the discussion should be about: what the consequences would be for different groups, what negative effects there are, whether it's even a good change for the game at all. Then the Admin team will worry about whether to implement it and how.

Ballotonia

[[violet]]

I do agree that it's not a great mechanic when an invasion consists of nations piling into a region a split-second before it updates. There's still a lot of subterfuge involved, but it's more fun when there's at least some kind of window for defenders to react and mobilize.

No changes planned in the short-term, but it is something I'm tracking.

[Cerian Quilor]

What's this about using the 'dump' to find update times in the first place?

[Ballotonia]

What's this about using the 'dump' to find update times in the first place?

See: http://www.nationstates.net/pages/api.html
In specific, section 5, the regions Daily Data Dump. It contains an XML dump of all regions in the game, in the order in which the daily update went through them. That's hence also the update order.

Determining timing from that point is a matter of math done by the user.

Ballotonia

[Mallorea and Riva]

If each block was only 5-10 seconds I imagine we would still see 2-3 second invasions....not defend-able at that speed. Greater variance would be needed or larger blocks.
The problem still remains that the order is known and time can be predicted. Separation of the large regions would further remove the slight variance we get now. All invaders need to know is what a block consists of and place a trigger in each. This solution just seems to make it worse if anything.

Yes you would still see two second invasions... but you'll also see ten second invasions.

[Spartzerium]

If each block was only 5-10 seconds I imagine we would still see 2-3 second invasions....not defend-able at that speed. Greater variance would be needed or larger blocks.
The problem still remains that the order is known and time can be predicted. Separation of the large regions would further remove the slight variance we get now. All invaders need to know is what a block consists of and place a trigger in each. This solution just seems to make it worse if anything.

Yes you would still see two second invasions... but you'll also see ten second invasions.

Twenty second invasions, even, with blocks of ten seconds.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Yes you would still see two second invasions... but you'll also see ten second invasions.

Twenty second invasions, even, with blocks of ten seconds.

I thought of a way around that with ten second blocks the max would probably be twelve seconds.

[Cerian Quilor]

What about making Variance wider and harder to predict, which would force Raiders to move in earlier or risk moving in too late. or some variation thereof?

[Ballotonia]

Question though: wouldn't a larger variance kill Liberations?

Ballotonia

[Mallorea and Riva]

Question though: wouldn't a larger variance kill Liberations?

Ballotonia

No more than it would "kill" raids. It would add the same amount of difficulty. There would be a chance of missing or moving too early, but with the triggering difficulties we've been observing from some defender liberations I honestly don't see it hurting them.

[Riemstagrad]

Question though: wouldn't a larger variance kill Liberations?

Ballotonia

even a slow raider-delegate who needs two seconds to kick one liberator, raises the requirements for a liberation-force with 5 extra updaters for every 10 seconds.
i don't think any defender would even try to gather so many players only to see the liberation-attempt aborted again and again, or being burned to the ground by a raider-team that puts 2 fast clickers behind the ban-button.

[Cerian Quilor]

It was a correction intended on the issue of making defends more viable. As has been said, once raiders take the delegacy and face off the 'Fendas, they've won the right to use all its powers and move in with what they have and more. But, as also said, because Raiders have gotten so damn good at raiding right before the update (go us!), 'defending' has mostly fallen by the wayside, replaced with mostly liberations (direct and WA based) and an endless series of Kobyashimaru-esque propopsals to re-write the scenario to allow defenders to win.

I don't like the idea of what is essentially penalizing raiders for playing well, but some changes to making defends more easier/viable do seem to be somewhat in order.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Contests between raiders and defenders should be based on the comparative skill of both parties, not on luck. Increasing the amount of luck in the game will do nothing to fix it - it will only make it more frustrating.

Little band-aids like this are not going to fix gameplay. We need sweeping change to redefine how it works.

[Unibot II]

How'll about a third and fourth update that follows the major and minor (like twenty min after), that covers only the regions that had delegacy changes respectively in the major and minor (so it could only take a minute to update fully).

To liberate or re-raid using these updates, I think defenders or raiders would have to keep an eye on all the regions that update through the major or minor, so they could correctly calculate a move-time for the major+ or minor+ when they need to.

This would still make it rather easy to raid and impossible to defend, but at least this would combat piling -- give an almost immediate chance to defenders to take a region back, before raiders can pile it; it wouldn't be easy either to do it. You'd only have at max. two hours to arrange a liberation and you'd have to be catching all the regions that updated with a new delegacy change (so if defenders weren't keeping an eye out for this, an unsuspected raid could go unliberated at the major+ or minor+).

(As I said, this doesn't affecting defending which still would be crap -- but the problems with gameplay are at the defense and liberation stage).

[Tramiar]

I believe they've already said no more updates... but anyway, the real problem is the defense part. Not the liberation part. Getting the region should be a challenge for us. Taking it back should be a challenge for you. But most of the defenders posting don't feel like fixing the defense issue, it seems. I believe Mahaj has even said he'd prefer the 12 hour delegate-elect idea. And lets be honest. The defenders are going to watch the regions that update with a new delegate. Why even bother trying to defend one if all you have to do is watch that, and then reraid it a little while later?

[Unibot II]

But, as also said, because Raiders have gotten so damn good at raiding right before the update (go us!), 'defending' has mostly fallen by the wayside, replaced with mostly liberations (direct and WA based) and an endless series of Kobyashimaru-esque propopsals to re-write the scenario to allow defenders to win.

Raiders have gotten "good" at move-times because the game system changed to allow them to do it -- it upset the balance of the game and has caused a lot more strain for defenders. Defenders are asking for a change to return balance to the game, since it was a change that caused the imbalance in the first place.

Or are game changes only preferable when they make it easier to raid?

[Unibot II]

I believe they've already said no more updates... but anyway, the real problem is the defense part. Not the liberation part. Getting the region should be a challenge for us. Taking it back should be a challenge for you. But most of the defenders posting don't feel like fixing the defense issue, it seems. I believe Mahaj has even said he'd prefer the 12 hour delegate-elect idea. And lets be honest. The defenders are going to watch the regions that update with a new delegate. Why even bother trying to defend one if all you have to do is watch that, and then reraid it a little while later?

Liberations are near impossible with the exploitation of region piling, defenses are near impossible with the use of modern update-time calculation. It's not that it's a "challenge", there's serious imbalances here. Raiders are drinking the cool aid of their own propaganda if they think regions that are piled to the gunnels are just a "challenge" for defenders, I do hope the admins aren't fooled by that. There's only been one region that's been mass piled in the past year that's been liberated, ITALIA. There have been fourty+ other mass piles that defenders haven't had a chance to even liberate -- there's an imbalance there.

Furthermore, we would bother to defend because it's better to prevent a raid then have to liberate it.

[Cerian Quilor]

But, as also said, because Raiders have gotten so damn good at raiding right before the update (go us!), 'defending' has mostly fallen by the wayside, replaced with mostly liberations (direct and WA based) and an endless series of Kobyashimaru-esque propopsals to re-write the scenario to allow defenders to win.

Raiders have gotten "good" at move-times because the game system changed to allow them to do it -- it upset the balance of the game and has caused a lot more strain for defenders. Defenders are asking for a change to return balance to the game, since it was a change that caused the imbalance in the first place.

Or are game changes only preferable when they make it easier to raid?

They simply adapted to the change better than you guys.

The game is not imbalanced, Defenders just are lazy and unwilling to work with what they have. Defenders need a new paradigm,