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Region deletion: Zoophilia

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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1000 Cats
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Region deletion: Zoophilia

Postby 1000 Cats » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:28 pm

It seems I can send as many messages to the NS mods as I like and not even have them read, and I had someone suggest I create a thread here to argue my case.

I've found NationStates to be a gladly tolerant and rational community. It's for this reason that I've stayed here for this extended period of time, and in that time I've made it something of my personal mission to spread better awareness of people like myself here. After finding a fair number of people in the same or similar boats as myself here, and discussing with some of them about the beneficial aspects of having a region to ourselves - that is, establishing something of a presence so that our existence and, just as importantly, our otherwise normality is clearer; and helping people who, as are many when it comes to difficult things about themselves they cannot change or choose, are confused and insecure. While I understand that NS is not a self-help group, I personally believe that this is what endears it to the establishment of a micro-community that is more commonly reserved, unfairly, to the underground. I feel that given NS's size, userbase, and the aforementioned tolerance I have seen, that there is no better place, and based on this feeling I put aside many hours of the last week establishing the region, making it presentable and inviting to a community, getting the word out, and most importantly assuring people that we deserve to have our place on NationStates.

Unfortunately, the moderators did not get the memo. Despite my insistence to their inbox that zoophilia, being defined as an affection, is not illegal anywhere in the world; that we had specifically prohibited lewd and illegal discussion in our WFE; and that we are otherwise adhering to rules and existing as an inclusive region, we were deleted without any conversation or even consideration of my messages.

It is, as I hope I have iterated, quite important to me and to a number of our former member nations that this region be allowed to exist as it was intended, not as a, "place to discuss concerns about animals," as our WFE was edited to a few days prior to our deletion and which implies a PETA launching point, but as a haven for a group of people who are typically relegated, misrepresented, unacknowledged to even exist by the large majority, and quite frankly have nowhere else on the internet to go; and without any illegal intent as defined either by laws in western nations or those defined by the NationStates moderating team. I would like to establish a discussion here until we can settle on an agreement. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Last edited by 1000 Cats on Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Your friendly neighborhood zoophile. I'm here to answer questions. Also, we have a region: Zoo!

Norstal wrote:You are a hatiater: one who radiates hate.


Meryuma wrote:No one is more of a cat person than 1000 Cats!


FST wrote:Any sexual desires which can be satiated within a healthy and consensual way should be freed from shame. Bizarre kinks and fetishes are acceptable and nothing to be ashamed of as long as they are acted out in a context where everyone consents and no one is hurt.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:37 pm

You can't create a region that appears to endorse illegal activity. The most common meaning of "zoophilia" is, from my reading, sexual activity with animals, which is illegal in a great many places. At first we thought we could permit the region if its WFE were toned down, but ultimately I decided that the name itself was a problem, for same reason we would have a problem with a region named "Pedophilia."

We permit discussion of many topics here, and you're able to (for example) start a forum topic about why something should or shouldn't be illegal, providing that you do so in a mature and reasonable way, without encouraging or facilitating breaking the law.

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1000 Cats
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Postby 1000 Cats » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:42 pm

Would it be fine, then, if I renamed the region to something less conspicuous, such as merely, "Zoo"?
Your friendly neighborhood zoophile. I'm here to answer questions. Also, we have a region: Zoo!

Norstal wrote:You are a hatiater: one who radiates hate.


Meryuma wrote:No one is more of a cat person than 1000 Cats!


FST wrote:Any sexual desires which can be satiated within a healthy and consensual way should be freed from shame. Bizarre kinks and fetishes are acceptable and nothing to be ashamed of as long as they are acted out in a context where everyone consents and no one is hurt.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:53 pm

That would certainly be an acceptable name for a region. You would still need to refrain from appearing to endorse or facilitate illegal behavior on the WFE, etc.

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1000 Cats
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Postby 1000 Cats » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:57 pm

I quickly churned this out. With your approval I will use it as our WFE, potentially just shifting around formatting:

Welcome to Zoo: a safe haven for zoophiles, animal lovers, and zoo rights supporters on NationStates!

TERMS AND CONDITIONS

Although this region is geared in large part towards the zoophilic community in existence on this site, discussion of lewd or illegal activities is strictly prohibited here. Flamers, trolls, and abusers are highly unwelcome. Non-zoos, however, are very welcome, and make up a fair portion of our membership as well!

Our Forum – Come here for more varied and extensive conversation! If you are a member of the region, please register with your nation name. If you are not, you are welcome there as well; just telegram 1000 Cats and let me know to expect you.

If you wish to join our region, any member may give out the password to a trusted nation. Alternatively, contact 1000 Cats.

If you have a problem with our region or the behaviour of any of our members, please contact the founder. We have an image, and we would very much like to keep it. Thank you for your assistance.


Thanks for your help here, [violet]. :)
Your friendly neighborhood zoophile. I'm here to answer questions. Also, we have a region: Zoo!

Norstal wrote:You are a hatiater: one who radiates hate.


Meryuma wrote:No one is more of a cat person than 1000 Cats!


FST wrote:Any sexual desires which can be satiated within a healthy and consensual way should be freed from shame. Bizarre kinks and fetishes are acceptable and nothing to be ashamed of as long as they are acted out in a context where everyone consents and no one is hurt.
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Cogitation
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Postby Cogitation » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:06 pm

Begging [violet]'s pardon, but in this context, the general playerbase might confuse the region name "Zoo" with the concept of zoological parks and menageries, especially since it's a common 3-letter word. I would suggest "Private Zoo" for the region name, which is also available.

I'll leave judging the proposed World Factbook Entry to [violet].

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

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1000 Cats
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Postby 1000 Cats » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:19 pm

Thanks for the input, Cogitation. :)

"Private Zoo" I think would definitely give them the idea of a zoological park, if, "Zoo" alone would. :P "Zoo" is also a word used in the same way as, "Straight" or, "Gay": just a quick term that doesn't sound terribly scientific. My personal goal for the name would be to both attract the kinds of nations we are geared towards while also fitting with the wishes of the moderation team.
Your friendly neighborhood zoophile. I'm here to answer questions. Also, we have a region: Zoo!

Norstal wrote:You are a hatiater: one who radiates hate.


Meryuma wrote:No one is more of a cat person than 1000 Cats!


FST wrote:Any sexual desires which can be satiated within a healthy and consensual way should be freed from shame. Bizarre kinks and fetishes are acceptable and nothing to be ashamed of as long as they are acted out in a context where everyone consents and no one is hurt.
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Cogitation
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cogitation » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:32 pm

[violet] has spoken to me. "Zoo" will be fine.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
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[violet]
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Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:41 pm

1000 Cats wrote:I quickly churned this out. With your approval I will use it as our WFE

My reading is that the term "zoophilia" refers to a practice that is against the law, a "zoophile" is one who engages in such practices, and "zoophilic" is one who supports such practices. There are other interpretations, but these ones seem most common.

As such, we can't permit language like, "this is a safe haven for zoophiles," or "we exist for the zoophilic community," since that would seem to be endorsing something illegal (and obscene).
Last edited by [violet] on Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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1000 Cats
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Postby 1000 Cats » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:47 pm

[violet] wrote:
1000 Cats wrote:I quickly churned this out. With your approval I will use it as our WFE

My reading is that the term "zoophilia" refers to a practice that is against the law, a "zoophile" is one who engages in such practices, and "zoophilic" is one who supports such practices. There are other interpretations, but these ones seem most common.

As such, we can't permit language like, "this is a safe haven for zoophiles," or "we exist for the zoophilic community," since that would seem to be endorsing something illegal (and obscene).

What if I added a disclaimer stating that zoophilia is defined here as an affection not necessarily implying a sexual orientation?
Your friendly neighborhood zoophile. I'm here to answer questions. Also, we have a region: Zoo!

Norstal wrote:You are a hatiater: one who radiates hate.


Meryuma wrote:No one is more of a cat person than 1000 Cats!


FST wrote:Any sexual desires which can be satiated within a healthy and consensual way should be freed from shame. Bizarre kinks and fetishes are acceptable and nothing to be ashamed of as long as they are acted out in a context where everyone consents and no one is hurt.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:52 pm

No, you can't redefine words. Just use different language.

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1000 Cats
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Founded: Jul 17, 2011
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Postby 1000 Cats » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:21 pm

[violet] wrote:No, you can't redefine words. Just use different language.

That is, however, the definition of the word. It is not synonymous with bestiality.
Your friendly neighborhood zoophile. I'm here to answer questions. Also, we have a region: Zoo!

Norstal wrote:You are a hatiater: one who radiates hate.


Meryuma wrote:No one is more of a cat person than 1000 Cats!


FST wrote:Any sexual desires which can be satiated within a healthy and consensual way should be freed from shame. Bizarre kinks and fetishes are acceptable and nothing to be ashamed of as long as they are acted out in a context where everyone consents and no one is hurt.
Factbook/Q&A | RP | Conlang | Short Story

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Corynth
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Founded: Feb 19, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Corynth » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:31 pm

I might be inclined to jump in on this discussion, as I believe that site policy here is flawed.

If the individual here (1000 Cats) were to define their terms, i.e. Those with an affection for animalia kingdom (Henceforth known as 'zoophiles') the term would become a representation, albeit one which is not synonymous with your understanding of the word 'zoophile'.

There is, also, a difference between the word 'zoophile' and its derivatives and the word 'bestiophile' and its derivatives, in that bestiophilia and such is only pertaining to the sexual actions, stimulations and such, whereas 'zoophilia' should really be considered a sexuality over a fetish.

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Sailsia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sailsia » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:31 pm

[violet] wrote:
1000 Cats wrote:I quickly churned this out. With your approval I will use it as our WFE

My reading is that the term "zoophilia" refers to a practice that is against the law, a "zoophile" is one who engages in such practices, and "zoophilic" is one who supports such practices. There are other interpretations, but these ones seem most common.

As such, we can't permit language like, "this is a safe haven for zoophiles," or "we exist for the zoophilic community," since that would seem to be endorsing something illegal (and obscene).

Explain to me, please, why there is a region called "gay"? In many countries, for many years, homosexuality was on par with pedophilia. Even today, many people would see the region of gay and put in the same bracket of offensiveness as a region called zoophilia.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y_laws.svg)
*countries in red, brown, and yellow are places where homosexuality is illegal

So, my point is, where does this stop? If there cannot be a region called Zoophilia, can there be a region called Gay? Why is it we allow Nazi regions, but not regions like Zoophilia? I personally have no vested interest in this, but it seems strange none the less. I apologize if im out of bounds for posting here, but i feel it must be said, either you allow none or you allow all of the controversial regions.
Last edited by Sailsia on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Corynth
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Founded: Feb 19, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Corynth » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:35 pm

I feel I agree with Sailsia; just because this issue is seen by you as sexual does not mean it is right for you to censor it, inhibit discussion about it and inhibit and individual's expression of their nature; we see a website that deals with genocide, terrorism, multi-cultural segregation and multi-sexual expression, yet you choose this area to draw the line?

Poor show, my friend, poor show indeed.

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Neghaiiestar
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Ex-Nation

Postby Neghaiiestar » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:35 pm

Hi. This I think is my first post so please dont accuse me of being a puppet.
I was in the region of Zoophilia, and I am not even a zoophile. In fact, I am completely undecided on my orientation and just caught myself on an idea that I liked. I saw absolutely nothing wrong with the region at all, and even though it was deleted for a good enough purpose, this purpose was not a good one. The name of the person that deleted the region was something like The moderator puppet of another mod. That annoyed me a lot, especially since there was no warning or anything. There was nothing illegal talked about on the message board, and even after I asked 1000 cats, (s)he said that it was not illegal where (s)he was. I doubt anyone else in the region was a zoophile, but most everyone was probably a zoophilic. I know I left something out, but I should think of it soon.

I love you all, no matter if you deserve it or not.

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Neghaiiestar
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Founded: Apr 16, 2012
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Postby Neghaiiestar » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:38 pm

I too, agree with Sailsia. The world will soon accept homosexuality, just as it will everything else. We are just ahead of our time.

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Armedland
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Postby Armedland » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:40 pm

No posting in moderation, guys.
reagan 2010
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Corynth
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Postby Corynth » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:44 pm

Armedland wrote:No posting in moderation, guys.


The title does not contain the pre-face 'MODS ONLY'. The forum is, by the rules, open.

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:50 pm

1000 Cats wrote:That is, however, the definition of the word. It is not synonymous with bestiality.

I'm sympathetic to that view, and I understand it has different definitions. However, by my reading, the most common meaning of the word is as stated. If you view the wikipedia article, for example, the first definition is "is the practice of sexual activity between humans and non-human animals."

At best, such language is likely to be highly ambiguous. So if that's not what you mean, please use words that say what you do mean.

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Corynth
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Postby Corynth » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:53 pm

[violet] wrote:At best, such language is likely to be highly ambiguous. So if that's not what you mean, please use words that say what you do mean.


Not if academic definition and the legal practice of defining terms is applied. Most 'Terms and Conditions' contain phrases which define a certain word to work in the context. The nomenclature of such a thing can be changed if subjective to the region, and thus, ambiguity avoided.
Last edited by Corynth on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Crushing Our Enemies
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Postby Crushing Our Enemies » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:54 pm

Corynth wrote:
Armedland wrote:No posting in moderation, guys.


The title does not contain the pre-face 'MODS ONLY'. The forum is, by the rules, open.

There are restrictions on what you can post in Moderation.
[violet] wrote:You are definitely not genial.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:58 pm

Let's make something clear here. NationStates is a political simulation game. That means you can pretend to be a Nazi / dictator / Joseph Kony type. You can roleplay the political consequences of allowing slavery, drugs, nudity, or any number of national issues, within defined limits.

It's not a social media site intended to provide a 'safe haven' for romantic or sexual behavior. Our audience on the forums includes children 13 and up, and the game itself is open to players much younger than 13. As such, gameside behavior is more tightly regulated than forumside behavior. That includes regions. Should somebody in Gay or Straight start describing their sexual exploits, we'll shut them down just as quickly as we did Zoophilia. It's NOT ACCEPTABLE, and that's not a new policy. We've been enforcing it for years.



Corynth wrote:The title does not contain the pre-face 'MODS ONLY'. The forum is, by the rules, open.

No, it's not. Moderation is not a discussion forum. We'll permit relevant discussion of the ruling. We're not interested in whether you agree or not, or whether you think [violet]'s definition is all-inclusive.

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[violet]
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Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:02 pm

Sailsia wrote:Explain to me, please, why there is a region called "gay"? In many countries, for many years, homosexuality was on par with pedophilia. Even today, many people would see the region of gay and put in the same bracket of offensiveness as a region called zoophilia.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y_laws.svg)
*countries in red, brown, and yellow are places where homosexuality is illegal

So, my point is, where does this stop? If there cannot be a region called Zoophilia, can there be a region called Gay? Why is it we allow Nazi regions, but not regions like Zoophilia? I personally have no vested interest in this, but it seems strange none the less. I apologize if im out of bounds for posting here, but i feel it must be said, either you allow none or you allow all of the controversial regions.

Somewhat off-topic, but in the interests of explaining our policy:

There are many things that are illegal in some places but not others. Whether we are required to follow every law in every country also differs from place to place; some countries hold that if your web site is accessible from their country, you must follow all their laws. This is just impractical, however; we are not going to enforce all of Saudi Arabia's laws.

So to some degree we must pick and choose which laws to follow. You mention Nazis, so let's take the case of Holocaust Denial. (We could do the same thing with homosexuality.) This is illegal in some places but not others. So why not ban Holocaust Denial?

Well, first we consider the laws of the territories that are most significant to us: the US (where we have servers), Canada (where we have servers), the UK, and Australia. Together these comprise about 75% of our traffic. Holocaust Denial is not a crime in any of these. (Hate speech generally is, but that's not the same thing.) Countries that do possess laws banning Holocaust Denial comprise about 3% of our traffic, or 5% if you include Germany.

So on balance, we don't believe we should take a law that applies to 5% of our players and impose it on the other 95%.

That said, if you deny the Holocaust, you're an idiot. But that's just my personal opinion.

Back to the topic, we do not permit people to endorse or facilitate bestiality here, because that is prohibited in the vast majority of countries that our players access us from, including the most important ones.

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Tubbsalot
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Postby Tubbsalot » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:03 pm

violet/fris/doesn't really matter: would it be acceptable for him to make a region 'for' zoophiles but not titled as such, with a more detailed description in the... er... description? There's not really a lot of alternative wording available in this case.

Sailsia wrote:Explain to me, please, why there is a region called "gay"? In many countries, for many years, homosexuality was on par with pedophilia. Even today, many people would see the region of gay and put in the same bracket of offensiveness as a region called zoophilia.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/World_homosexuality_laws.svg)
*countries in red, brown, and yellow are places where homosexuality is illegal

So, my point is, where does this stop? If there cannot be a region called Zoophilia, can there be a region called Gay? Why is it we allow Nazi regions, but not regions like Zoophilia? I personally have no vested interest in this, but it seems strange none the less. I apologize if im out of bounds for posting here, but i feel it must be said, either you allow none or you allow all of the controversial regions.

Sites operate according to the laws of the country in which the servers are based.The NS servers exist in a country where homosexuality is perfectly legal (Canada, I believe, although it could also be America). As a result, there is no need to take any action against gay regions. The same goes for Nazism, although use of Nazi imagery and rhetoric on the site is restricted according to Max's demands.

I'll also note that NS has no obligation to act consistently or reasonably; they are perfectly entitled to ban some controversial regions and not others (where "they" refers to the shadowy cabal of moderators and administrators who operate the site).

Corynth wrote:The title does not contain the pre-face 'MODS ONLY'. The forum is, by the rules, open.

Correct, but the Moderation forum is a special place - even if a thread is 'open,' you still need to have relevant information to contribute or you're potentially spamming Moderation. Saying "I agree with this other person," as you essentially did, without introducing any new information which might be useful in a moderator's judgement, isn't really welcome.
"Twats love flags." - Yootopia

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