NS Military Realism Consultation Thread

by **Vitaphone Racing** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:52 pm

Registug wrote:Alrighty, so I've been using my own concept of attack helicopter for a while in regional RP (Which is a huge wankfest, I come from Sapphire), and I was wondering if I used it in forum RP whether I'd get complaints/hate mail/death threats for it.

Basically it's a Black Hawk, but instead of a troop compartment, it has a chain gun inside it. Two bay doors open up and the gun folds out through complex, vulnerable hydraulic shit, and it shoots stuff. Is this too implausible for forum RP?

The best place for a chain gun is underneath the nose in a turret so you can point it pretty much anywhere. Placing it inside the helicopter will seriously limit it's movement and will make it difficult to aim from one target to another. If you have a chain gun so big that it can't fit underneath, you're better off ditching it and supplanting it with a smaller gun and missiles/rockets.

Your idea is plausible but it isn't the least bit effective I'm sorry to say.

by **Registug** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:40 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Registug wrote:Alrighty, so I've been using my own concept of attack helicopter for a while in regional RP (Which is a huge wankfest, I come from Sapphire), and I was wondering if I used it in forum RP whether I'd get complaints/hate mail/death threats for it.

Basically it's a Black Hawk, but instead of a troop compartment, it has a chain gun inside it. Two bay doors open up and the gun folds out through complex, vulnerable hydraulic shit, and it shoots stuff. Is this too implausible for forum RP?

The best place for a chain gun is underneath the nose in a turret so you can point it pretty much anywhere. Placing it inside the helicopter will seriously limit it's movement and will make it difficult to aim from one target to another. If you have a chain gun so big that it can't fit underneath, you're better off ditching it and supplanting it with a smaller gun and missiles/rockets.

Your idea is plausible but it isn't the least bit effective I'm sorry to say.

It's not that it's underneath, that's just where it's stored.

I'm not really looking to change it, I just want to know whether people will ultima rage if I use it in RP.

by **Vitaphone Racing** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:19 am

Registug wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:
The best place for a chain gun is underneath the nose in a turret so you can point it pretty much anywhere. Placing it inside the helicopter will seriously limit it's movement and will make it difficult to aim from one target to another. If you have a chain gun so big that it can't fit underneath, you're better off ditching it and supplanting it with a smaller gun and missiles/rockets.

Your idea is plausible but it isn't the least bit effective I'm sorry to say.

It's not that it's underneath, that's just where it's stored.

I'm not really looking to change it, I just want to know whether people will ultima rage if I use it in RP.

They won't rage. They just ask why you bothered to make a complex folding mechanism for your chain gun and a complex stability program for your chopper rather than slinging the gun underneath.

I still can't figure out why you'd want to do this. But if you don't want to change it...

by **Kazomal** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:40 am

The State of Monavia wrote:
Kazomal, you might want to post some calculations from the calculators so that I can have some numbers to work with. My advice is as follows:

If you RP as a nation with a small public sector and a government spending less than twenty percent of GDP, you can certainly fund some massive forces. Try to keep defense spending under twenty-five percent of government spending unless you are in a major war or are locked into a prolonged cold war, at which point fifty percent is a reasonably limit. My warning regarding having tens of millions of troops and vehicles is that organizing them into units will take a very long time.

http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconom ... on=kazomal

My nation has fought several wars and police actions recently, has an overseas colony which is the subject of a territorial dispute, I am fighting a protracted counter-insurgency campaign against the loyalist forces of a deposed military dictator overseas, and my two closest neighbors have military budgets of $90 and $110 trillion (though the rest of the region falls far short of my nation's $40 trill). About 35% of my government spending goes to the military.

by **Valcluse** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:05 am

I RP with a small nation (8.5 million) and I have been looking at other similarly sized nations around the world IRL and I have a problem.

I already use 105mm and 155mm towed howitzers as part of the artillery in my armed forces. Do I need something like an MLRS? Is it really necessary?

by **Malgrave** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:19 am

Ponistan wrote:
Hippostania wrote:I RP with a population of 276 millions. Is this navy too large for me? Is there anything I should change? Do I have too much something or not enough something?

Aircraft Carriers
13 Nimitz class aircraft carriers
-HNS Alcide De Gasperi
-HNS Altiero Spinelli
-HNS François Mitterrand
-HNS Guy Verhofstadt
-HNS Helmut Kohl
-HNS Jacques Delors
-HNS Jan Willem Beyen
-HNS Jean Monnet
-HNS Joseph Bech
-HNS Konrad Adenauer
-HNS Richard Nikolaus
-HNS Robert Schuman
-HNS Winston Churchill

Amphibious Transport Dock
15 San Antonio class amphibious transport docks
-HNS Amazon
-HNS Danube
-HNS Elbe
-HNS Grande
-HNS Indus
-HNS Loire
-HNS Mackenzie
-HNS Mississippi
-HNS Murray
-HNS Nile
-HNS Rhine
-HNS Saint Lawrence
-HNS Seine
-HNS Volga
-HNS Yangtze

Amphibious Assault Ships
18 Wasp class amphibious assault ships
-HNS Baikal
-HNS Constance
-HNS Erie
-HNS Huron
-HNS Ladoga
-HNS Leman
-HNS Malawi
-HNS Michigan
-HNS Onega
-HNS Ontario
-HNS Saimaa
-HNS Superior
-HNS Tanganyika
-HNS Victoria
-HNS Vostok
-HNS Vänern
-HNS Vättern
-HNS Winnipeg

Combat Support Ships
15 Supply class fast combat support ships
-HNS Adriatic
-HNS Aegean
-HNS Arctic
-HNS Aral
-HNS Atlantic
-HNS Baltic
-HNS Black
-HNS Bothnian
-HNS Caribbean
-HNS Caspian
-HNS Indian
-HNS Ligurian
-HNS Mediterranean
-HNS Southern
-HNS Pacific

Corvettes
25 Visby class corvettes
-HNS Argenteuil
-HNS Carlisle
-HNS Creteil
-HNS Croydon
-HNS Durham
-HNS Edinburgh
-HNS Epping
-HNS Gatwick
-HNS Greenwich
-HNS Harlow
-HNS Hounslow
-HNS Lewisham
-HNS Milton Keynes
-HNS Moncton-Monceau
-HNS Martintown-Martigny
-HNS Nanterre
-HNS Northampton
-HNS Nouvelle Acadie
-HNS Saint-Laurent
-HNS Stanstead
-HNS Suffolk
-HNS Waverley
-HNS Williamstown
-HNS Wokingham
-HNS Worcester

Cruisers
27 Ticonderoga class cruisers
-HNS Ardennes
-HNS Austerlitz
-HNS Blenheim
-HNS Breitenfeld
-HNS Bulge
-HNS Falklands
-HNS Gallipoli
-HNS Gettysburg
-HNS Guadalcanal
-HNS Meuse-Argonne
-HNS Iwo Jima
-HNS Khe Sanh
-HNS Market Garden
-HNS Marne
-HNS Monte Cassino
-HNS Normandy
-HNS Okinawa
-HNS Pearl Harbor
-HNS Saratoga
-HNS Seelow Heights
-HNS Sedan
-HNS Sekigahara
-HNS Tali-Ihantala
-HNS Trafalgar
-HNS Verdun
-HNS Vistula-Oder
-HNS Waterloo

Cutters
100 Sentinel class cutters
-HNS One
-HNS Two
-HNS Three
..and so on

Destroyers
55 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
-HNS Abraham Lincoln
-HNS Adam Smith
-HNS Albert Einstein
-HNS Al Gore
-HNS Angela Merkel
-HNS Augusto Pinochet
-HNS Axel Freudenthal
-HNS Ayn Rand
-HNS Barack Obama
-HNS Benjamin Franklin
-HNS Bill Clinton
-HNS Boris Yeltsin
-HNS Charles Darwin
-HNS Charles De Gaulle
-HNS Charles Dickens
-HNS Chiang Kai-Shek
-HNS Christopher Columbus
-HNS Dag Hammarskjöld
-HNS David Hume
-HNS Dwight D. Eisenhower
-HNS François Fillon
-HNS Franklin D. Roosevelt
-HNS Fredrik Reinfeldt
-HNS George Washington
-HNS George W. Bush
-HNS Giovanni da Verrazzano
-HNS Giuseppe Garibaldi
-HNS Harri Holkeri
-HNS Harry S. Truman
-HNS Henry Hudson
-HNS Isaac Newton
-HNS Jan Björklund
-HNS John F. Kennedy
-HNS John Locke
-HNS John Major
-HNS John Maynard Keynes
-HNS Joseph McCarthy
-HNS Kim Dae Jung
-HNS Kurt von Schleicher
-HNS Ludwig van Bethoven
-HNS Ludwig Erhard
-HNS Margaret Thatcher
-HNS Mark Twain
-HNS Mikhail Gorbachev
-HNS Milton Friedman
-HNS Mohammad Reza Pahlavi
-HNS Nelson Mandela
-HNS Nicolas Sarkozy
-HNS Pierre Elliott Trudeau
-HNS Ronald Reagan
-HNS Sauli Niinistö
-HNS Shirin Ebadi
-HNS Stephen Hawking
-HNS Thomas Edison
-HNS Thomas Jefferson
-HNS Willem van Oranje
-HNS Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
-HNS Woodrow Wilson

45 Type 45 destroyers
-HNS Boris Pasternak
-HNS Diana, Princess of Wales
-HNS Donald Rumsfeld
-HNS Elizabeth II
-HNS Eugène Delacroix
-HNS F.W. de Klerk
-HNS Georges Pompidou
-HNS George H.W. Bush
-HNS Gordon Brown
-HNS Gustav II Adolf
-HNS Mahatma Gandhi
-HNS Mikheil Saakashvili
-HNS Hamid Karzai
-HNS Hashim Thaçi
-HNS Henry Dunant
-HNS Herta Müller
-HNS Horatio Nelson
-HNS Idris of Libya
-HNS Jalal Talabani
-HNS Jimmy Carter
-HNS Jeanne D'Arc
-HNS John D. Rockefeller
-HNS John Edgar Hoover
-HNS John McMichael
-HNS Jyrki Katainen
-HNS Kofi Annan
-HNS Lennart Meri
-HNS Leszek Kolakowski
-HNS Leonardo da Vinci
-HNS Liu Xiaobo
-HNS Ludwig von Mises
-HNS Martin Luther King
-HNS Marthinus van Schalkwyk
-HNS Martti Ahtisaari
-HNS Mohamed ElBaradei
-HNS Mustafa Abdul Jalil
-HNS Nick Clegg
-HNS Richard Dawkins
-HNS Richard Howard Ichord Jr
-HNS Robert McNamara
-HNS Theodore Roosevelt
-HNS Tony Blair
-HNS William Shakespeare
-HNS Willy Brandt
-HNS Yasser Arafat

Dock landing ships
10 Harpers Ferry class dock landing ships
-HNS Ararat
-HNS Bernina
-HNS Blanc
-HNS Everest
-HNS Jotunheimen
-HNS Jungfrau
-HNS Matterhorn
-HNS McKinley
-HNS Rainier
-HNS Rosa

Frigates
80 Type 23 frigates
-HNS Adelaide
-HNS Amsterdam
-HNS Athens
-HNS Auckland
-HNS Barcelona
-HNS Beijing
-HNS Berlin
-HNS Bern
-HNS Boston
-HNS Brisbane
-HNS Brussels
-HNS Bucharest
-HNS Budapest
-HNS Calgary
-HNS Canberra
-HNS Cape Town
-HNS Chicago
-HNS Copenhagen
-HNS Delhi
-HNS Dublin
-HNS Düsseldorf
-HNS Edinburgh
-HNS Frankfurt
-HNS Geneva
-HNS Hamburg
-HNS Helsinki
-HNS Hong Kong
-HNS Honolulu
-HNS Jakarta
-HNS Johannesburg
-HNS Karachi
-HNS Kiev
-HNS Lagos
-HNS Lisbon
-HNS London
-HNS Los Angeles
-HNS Luxembourg
-HNS Lyon
-HNS Madrid
-HNS Manchester
-HNS Melbourne
-HNS Miami
-HNS Milan
-HNS Montreal
-HNS Moscow
-HNS Mumbai
-HNS Munich
-HNS New York City
-HNS Nuremberg
-HNS Osaka
-HNS Oslo
-HNS Ottawa
-HNS Paris
-HNS Perth
-HNS Prague
-HNS Philadelphia
-HNS Riga
-HNS Rio de Janeiro
-HNS Rome
-HNS Saint Petersburg
-HNS San Francisco
-HNS São Paulo
-HNS Seattle
-HNS Seoul
-HNS Shanghai
-HNS Singapore
-HNS Sofia
-HNS Stockholm
-HNS Stuttgart
-HNS Sydney
-HNS Tallinn
-HNS Taipei
-HNS Tokyo
-HNS Toronto
-HNS Vancouver
-HNS Vienna
-HNS Vilnius
-HNS Warsaw
-HNS Washington DC
-HNS Zurich

40 Freedom class frigates
-HNS Abidjan
-HNS Accra
-HNS Addis Ababa
-HNS Algiers
-HNS Antwerp
-HNS Baku
-HNS Bangkok
-HNS Belgrade
-HNS Birmingham
-HNS Bogota
-HNS Buenos Aires
-HNS Cairo
-HNS Caracas
-HNS Casablanca
-HNS Cologne
-HNS Dakar
-HNS Dar es Salaam
-HNS Durban
-HNS Florence
-HNS Glasgow
-HNS Houston
-HNS Istanbul
-HNS Khartoum
-HNS Kuala Lumpur
-HNS Leeds-Bradford
-HNS Lille
-HNS Lima
-HNS Luanda
-HNS Manila
-HNS Marseille
-HNS Minsk
-HNS Nairobi
-HNS Pretoria
-HNS Rotterdam
-HNS Santiago
-HNS Stuttgart
-HNS Tbilisi
-HNS Tunis
-HNS Turin
-HNS Yerevan

Minesweepers
45 Avenger class minesweepers
-HNS Able
-HNS Alpha
-HNS Baker
-HNS Bravo
-HNS Charlie
-HNS Delta
-HNS Dog
-HNS Easy
-HNS Echo
-HNS Epsilon
-HNS Foxtrot
-HNS Gamma
-HNS George
-HNS Golf
-HNS Juliet
-HNS Kappa
-HNS Kilo
-HNS King
-HNS Lambda
-HNS Lima
-HNS Mike
-HNS November
-HNS Omega
-HNS Omicron
-HNS Oscar
-HNS Papa
-HNS Peter
-HNS Pi
-HNS Quebec
-HNS Queen
-HNS Rho
-HNS Roger
-HNS Romeo
-HNS Sierra
-HNS Tango
-HNS Tau
-HNS Theta
-HNS Uniform
-HNS Victor
-HNS Whiskey
-HNS William
-HNS Xray
-HNS Yankee
-HNS Zebra
-HNS Zulu

Submarines
35 Virginia class submarines
-HNS Bravery
-HNS Diligence
-HNS Dedication
-HNS Democracy
-HNS Devotion
-HNS Diversity
-HNS Effort
-HNS Equality
-HNS Endurance
-HNS Fidelity
-HNS Fraternity
-HNS Freedom
-HNS Glory
-HNS Harmony
-HNS Honor
-HNS Hope
-HNS Integrity
-HNS Justice
-HNS Liberty
-HNS Loyalty
-HNS Peace
-HNS Progress
-HNS Prosperity
-HNS Righteousness
-HNS Respect
-HNS Serenity
-HNS Service
-HNS Solidarity
-HNS Strength
-HNS Tirelessness
-HNS Triumph
-HNS Unity
-HNS Victory
-HNS Vigilance
-HNS Wealth

5 Ohio class submarines
-HNS Generosity
-HNS Honesty
-HNS Kindness
-HNS Laughter
-HNS Magic

Jesus. Thirteen carriers? I know the USN has been mentioned earlier, but keep in mind that it is THE largest navy in the world, by miles. I think it's fair to take a look at the navies of other large and powerful nations with fairly strong military might. Now remember, this is by numbers of aircraft carriers in service, not under construction. I'll even include the ones in reserve.

The United States (the big one) - 12
Italy, Spain - 2 each
France, Russia, India, China - 1 each
The UK, Germany, Australia, Japan, Canada - Zero

Get that? The United States has over half the aircraft carriers in the entire world right now.

The point is that carriers are very, very powerful. They are also extremely costly and are meant to be the flagship of a fleet. At most you might have one carrier in a fleet, and it would have a lot of smaller screening ships around it. Most fleets wouldn't even have a carrier.

So yeah. I hope this helps you, and anyone else with questions about a reasonable number of carriers.

The United Kingdom still have one aircraft carrier in active service.

by **Useful Daveia** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:41 am

Overall Military size is something that's got me confused at the higher up levels of NS sizes. When I try to look for sources and you find stuff like the 80,000 ship/sub navy of Questers it doesn't exactly help when trying to work out just how large a navy you should try for. Working on this I got around 22,677 vessels in a navy, but not surprisingly even that was in the ridiculous range, so just how do you actually work out the totals?

by **DASHES** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 am

Now this a very preliminary wild guess, but I think that in principle, there should be a clear RP limit on the number of men that can be deployed. IMHO as far as military numbers is concerned, no matter how large your nation is, you should have, at maximum, 50-75 Million Servicemen in your total Armed Forces, and that for individual engagements, invasion forces should limited to something around 5-10 Million Servicemen, maximum.

This should keep the number spamming complaints down in International Incidents, while not excluding the larger nations with huge military forces.

Am I right?

by **North Calaveras** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:26 am

how about people not making their own damn tanks etc etc etc and then going " Look this thing is so badass and could take down anything else"

Nations should use real world weapons with maybe some tweaks and upgrades, but to create new shit just makes it extremely hard to rp against.

by **DASHES** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:28 am

Valcluse wrote:I RP with a small nation (8.5 million) and I have been looking at other similarly sized nations around the world IRL and I have a problem.

I already use 105mm and 155mm towed howitzers as part of the artillery in my armed forces. Do I need something like an MLRS? Is it really necessary?

No its not necessarily, but it is an advanced tactical weapon used by developed nations to provide devastating saturation fire. They are expensive in the Millions, but they are self propelled and highly mobile artillery pieces with a high ROF (for artillery).
They are highly superior to towed howitzers, being faster and more destructive.

If you want to take the poor man's approach to MLRS technology, try producing the Soviet Katyusha.
It does the same job for less money. However, it has less range, and it is a lot less glamorous.

by **DASHES** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:34 am

North Calaveras wrote:how about people not making their own damn tanks etc etc etc and then going " Look this thing is so badass and could take down anything else"

Nations should use real world weapons with maybe some tweaks and upgrades, but to create new shit just makes it extremely hard to rp against.

Look pal, this thread is for people who want to see if their designs and military forces are realistic and fair. For your example, people would go here to post their own tank designs and ask if they are reasonable and suitable for RP purposes.

This thread IS NOT for people to swoop in and banter about about designs that annoy them.
If you have a Military design or concept you want evaluated, post it. Otherwise you may lurk around, or leave.

Don't mean to be rude, but I gotta keep the thread on track. Thank you for understanding.

by **Santheres** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:21 am

The State of Monavia wrote:I have to disagree with your twenty-to-one ration, which is absurd in real life. Accoring to this website there are 327,172 active personnel in the USN as of September 14, 2011, in addition to 102,080 in the Ready Reserve and 203,734 civilian employees of the US Department of the Navy. In sum, that is around 632,986 personnel, including civilians and reserves. The US Merchant Marine has 29,000 deck oficers, 28,000 unlicensed personnel, and 12,000 marine engineers, for a total of 69,000 personnel explicitly enumerated on this page. The same page also states that:

As of 2006, the United States merchant fleet numbered 465 ships and approximately 100,000 members. Seven hundred ships owned by American interests but registered, or flagged, in other countries are not included in this number.

The federal government maintains fleets of merchant ships via organizations such as Military Sealift Command and the National Defense Reserve Fleet. In 2004, the federal government employed approximately 5% of all American water transportation workers.

The ratio of Merchant Marine personnel (using the figure of 100,000) to active Navy personnel, excluding reserves, is 100,000 to 327,172 or ~0.30565 to 1. I assume that all naval logistics personnel are government employees and are considered part of the military forces as well if your contentions are to be literally read and interpreted as stated. The entire United States Government employs around three million people, give or take some. With twenty people serving in logistics roles for every sailor on board a ship, there would have to be 6,543,400 logistics personnel, a statistically invalid number!

All hyperbole aside, Hippostania's navy could probably operate with around 100,000 merchant marine personnel and another 200,000 logistics personnel, assuming that the naval crew figure of 298,328 does not already include the logistics ships. The Hippostanian naval establishment can have any amount of civilian employees, depending on how bureaucratically heavy it is.

While I admit that I did not do the math completely (as it is now, I am skipping doing any editing of this reply, or further research, as I'm about to go in to training for a new job, as I have all this week), there is still a ratio of people outside of the people on those ships listed, and if you can find me an accurate ratio (one that includes the real-NS possibility that none of your ships will ever be out of service for any length of time because yes, that's how everyone RPs), then you should be using the rest of my math and that ratio, not picking a wildly random number and saying "I have one ship for this many." How do you even know what kind of ship?

I would have appreciated some commentary on that, since it directly criticized your own system.

Anyway, if you want to find the ratio of USS ship crew members x 2 : USN total employees, and take into account the people supporting support ships while not including those crew numbers, then you should, and you should post it for everyone's edification. My ratio is, admittedly, one from years back (on the boards). Also, I don't know why I said 1:20 when I meant 1:5; huge mistake. With amended math numbers, however, you'd still have to take note that he is smaller than the US, yet operates a navy a third again the size.

Civilian workers still get trained, paid, and given other benefits. They may not be quite as expensive, but you also should in no way be promoting the whole "ALL MY LOGISTICS ARE HANDLED PRIVATELY" attitude. You know the one I'm talking about, I know, since you've been here for awhile.

by **Immoren** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:31 am

Valcluse wrote:I RP with a small nation (8.5 million) and I have been looking at other similarly sized nations around the world IRL and I have a problem.

I already use 105mm and 155mm towed howitzers as part of the artillery in my armed forces. Do I need something like an MLRS? Is it really necessary?

I use multiple rocket launchers in sizes of one battery per motor/mech/armoured brigade and one battalion per corps' arty brigade, in addition to 122mm and 155mm howitzers and guns.
As DASHES said they can give intense volume of fire for short period of time on large area and thus good for counter-battery fire and trying to take out large enemy formations moving in wrong places.
Although I disagree with them (MLR) being superior (towed) tube arty. Yes they are faster and fire more devastating fires. But they can't really do sustain bombardent like tube arty (and I am not talking about those WWI arty slugfests), and spend quite long time reloading. Also IIRC their safety distances (if you value lives of your troops) are much longer than tube arty's and mortar's.

by **Trussvania** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:38 am

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Registug wrote:It's not that it's underneath, that's just where it's stored.

I'm not really looking to change it, I just want to know whether people will ultima rage if I use it in RP.

They won't rage. They just ask why you bothered to make a complex folding mechanism for your chain gun and a complex stability program for your chopper rather than slinging the gun underneath.

I still can't figure out why you'd want to do this. But if you don't want to change it...

This, a more conventional attack helicopter seems to be more bang for your buck.

by **Outlying States** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:41 am

This looks like it could be a very handy thread- ill have to check it regularly- maybe flesh out the 'lite' rp war I am involved in a little more...

by **DASHES** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:51 am

Dirty Land Pirates wrote:
Well, Lucky for all of you, I am infantry, and I know exactly what goes in my ruck sack, tac vest, and the rest of my combats.
DASHES: Your infantry can carry alot more than that, also, no one is going to be carrying around extra kevlar unless they're a mat tech. I'd suggest dropping that concept entirely. Soldiers can carry multiple flares, grenades, etc... Also, why have a cloth? Why not just issue your soldeirs facemasks, and gloves?

A sleeping bag is useless unless you have an improvised shelter, and a matress of some sort Have them carry a groundsheet, along with some 550 cord, and maybe a few bungie cords, and a "self-inflating" air matress. The one I was issued doesn't infalte very well, but it's better than sleeping directly on the ground.

Lastly, why would you give soldiers ration bars? I've never even heard of those...Most smart troops will just bring their own chocolate bars, etc... to the field anyways.

I had my reasons. First, my soldiers, even the basic grunts, are trained to a level that would be considered elite by many nations. A lot of our Military budget goes into training and armored vehicles for our ground forces, so if corners can be cut to individual combat supplies, we'll do it.
Also, my troops are issued 1 Level-III Vest w/Steel Plates (For protection from rifle fire). While very protective against 7.62mm threats, the plates that go into it are 9 Pounds each. Heavy.

That's why I put in the cloth, its lighter and cheaper than a real face-mask and gloves.

Also, I found the solution to the sleeping bag problem. Its the Selk Bag, an all-in-one wearable sleeping bag that can be used in very cold environments as well. Its very good, so I don't know why militaries don't use it. Here, give it a look.

Lastly, the Ration Bars. They are already in use for emergency situations. They are quickly edible survival meals.
I think that Infantrymen under fire would find this useful when they've been fighting for the last 12 hours with no meal, they need some energy, and they need to be spending less time eating and more time shooting. Its basically a meal for whenever chopping on an MRE would be impractical.

With that said, here's the new supply lists. How's it now?

by **CTALNH** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:57 am

Well my nation has a

army and I have a fairly wealthy nation,my navy is mostly made of remote controlled ships like Destroyers and small patrol craft.I have very few large craft in my army.
The army is made of a helghan like attitude of the enemy and the weaponry too is helghan made I got tanks planes and all the other stuff of course I don't give a crap about the Geneva convention and keep a very large biochemical and nuclear force.I tend to like playing it defence like!

So do you see any flaws in my army?

by **Jagalonia** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:05 am

x1 Selk Bag (Wearable Sleeping Bag)
x1 DIC Cleaning kit (Contains 2 Washcloths, a bar of soap, and 1 Brass cleaning rod. Can be used for soldier Hygiene, weapon cleaning, or [usually] both.)
x1 Infantryman Combat Manual (A paperback booklet containing firefight tactics, soldier etiquette, a glossary of terms, Service-rifle cleaning instructions a list of combat protocols, and much more.)
x1 Entrenching Tool
x1 Secondary Back-Up Canteen (Full of water)
x1 Tactical Dust Mask
x1 Universal Camo Fatigues (Enough for 1 change-of-clothes)
x3 MRE’s
x2 2400 Calorie ER Bar
x1 Flare

Because this is my trade, once again, I'll only be focusing on your infantry.
First, is this "selk" bag water proof? Does it have extra padding on the bottom for sleeping on the ground, because as infantry, I do find myself sleeping in the dirt often.
None of your infantry will bring a combat manual to the field. They should all have this information drilled into their heads by the time they hit the ground, if not, you have a serious problem.
Call that entrenching tool what it is...A shovel.
You won't need the ER bars, once again, smart troops will bring their own snacks to the field.
What about extra ammo? Grenades?
Where are the basic first aid supplies?
Finally, Most nations issue their soldiers a tactical vest to store other items, ammo, water, grenades, pace beads (These are very helpful on patrol). Do you issue your soldiers cammel backs? Or do they buy their own?

These are just some recomendations off the top of my head.

Really, I'm just waiting for people to insist that their soldiers can carry 2 rocket launchers, a LMG, and a laptop, without colapsing from the weight.

by **Super Bwitain** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:20 am

Okay so in a war thread i am sending my "Liberation Fleet" and it conatains:

SBS Vulture AC
SBS Thor AC
SBS Heresy BTTL
SBS Nurgle BTTL
SBS Khorne BTTL
SBS Nimitz BTTL
SBS Hood BTTL
SBS Templar BTTL
SBS Assassin DSTR
SBS Imperium DSTR
SBS Vanguard DSTR
SBS Hellion DSTR
SBS Mauler DSTR
SBS Reaper DSTR
SBS Queen DSTR
SBS Rapier DSTR
SBS Damnation DSTR
SBS Berserker DSTR
SBS BladeBane DSTR
SBS Archon DSTR
SBS Steel DSTR
SBS Firelancer DSTR
20x Transport

So in total:
2x Aircraft Carrier
6x Battle Cruiser
14x Destroyer
20x Transport

what i want to know is if it is a realistic number of ships and if i have any flaws with it

by **Jagalonia** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:28 am

Super Bwitain wrote:Okay so in a war thread i am sending my "Liberation Fleet" and it conatains:

SBS Vulture AC
SBS Thor AC
SBS Heresy BTTL
SBS Nurgle BTTL
SBS Khorne BTTL
SBS Nimitz BTTL
SBS Hood BTTL
SBS Templar BTTL
SBS Assassin DSTR
SBS Imperium DSTR
SBS Vanguard DSTR
SBS Hellion DSTR
SBS Mauler DSTR
SBS Reaper DSTR
SBS Queen DSTR
SBS Rapier DSTR
SBS Damnation DSTR
SBS Berserker DSTR
SBS BladeBane DSTR
SBS Archon DSTR
SBS Steel DSTR
SBS Firelancer DSTR
20x Transport

So in total:
2x Aircraft Carrier
6x Battle Cruiser
14x Destroyer
20x Transport

what i want to know is if it is a realistic number of ships and if i have any flaws with it

Never hurts to have a few subs in your fleet.

by **Super Bwitain** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:39 am

Jagalonia wrote:
Super Bwitain wrote:Okay so in a war thread i am sending my "Liberation Fleet" and it conatains:

SBS Vulture AC
SBS Thor AC
SBS Heresy BTTL
SBS Nurgle BTTL
SBS Khorne BTTL
SBS Nimitz BTTL
SBS Hood BTTL
SBS Templar BTTL
SBS Assassin DSTR
SBS Imperium DSTR
SBS Vanguard DSTR
SBS Hellion DSTR
SBS Mauler DSTR
SBS Reaper DSTR
SBS Queen DSTR
SBS Rapier DSTR
SBS Damnation DSTR
SBS Berserker DSTR
SBS BladeBane DSTR
SBS Archon DSTR
SBS Steel DSTR
SBS Firelancer DSTR
20x Transport

So in total:
2x Aircraft Carrier
6x Battle Cruiser
14x Destroyer
20x Transport

what i want to know is if it is a realistic number of ships and if i have any flaws with it

Never hurts to have a few subs in your fleet.

hmm good idea,although i have no real need for subs in this rp,it''s basically me and another guy fighting another guys resistance force,its quite cute really

by **Johz** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:46 am

Ponistan wrote:Again, I think it's unfair to compare to the United States. You should ask yourself if you can honestly say your country can rank as a rival to the most powerful single nation that the world has ever seen. A more reasonable comparison for military might would be Germany, the UK, India, France.

Additionally, remember America's history as the lead Capitalist nation in the Cold War. It was this period that forced America's aggressive increase in defence capabilities. If your nation has been in a similar position during a cold war, fine. But otherwise, most nations couldn't even begin to support such a combat set.

As an aside, my own question: My nation is a traditional English country village. What weaponry would they be able to afford/maintain easily, or would be able to improvise at short notice? It's not an entirely serious question, but I just wanted a more expert opinion...

by **The Celestial Flame** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:11 am

Kazomal wrote:Kazomal has a pop of about 3.5 billion, a Frightening economy, and a military budget of about $40 trillion annually (I know, ridiculous numbers, but my region uses the economic calculator and info on the main nation page, such as population, as cannon for in-region RP). Scaling up from US military numbers, this gives me thousands and thousands of ships, and about 200,000 main battle tanks. Even with $14t going to logistics and support, I am uncomfortable with these numbers. Anyone out there that can either sooth my guilt, or give me some better way to work out just what I can and cannot afford?

Here is my military budget breakdown. For things like vehicles and ships, I looked up annual costs of operation for similar modern-day vessels (my region is on the cusp of MT/PMT, in that we're mainly restricted to things that exist, but we RP in the year 2080ish, and are somewhat loose with what you may RP, tech-wise), then added some wriggle-room, set aside 14t for logistics and support, 6t for misc, and 15t for R&D. One of my main concerns is, is training and pay included anywhere in my calculations? When I look up the annual cost of operation of a US warship, does that include training and pay for the officers, crew, and mechanics? Is 14t enough to cover logistics, training, and pay across my entire military? Or do I just employ way way way to many people by having so so many ships and vehicles?

Annual Budget, Kazomal Armed Forces

Vehicle cost expressed as:
Vehicle type (model): # * build cost (annual cost of operation)= total build cost (total annual cost)

Infantrymen: 10m * 50,000= 500b
Main Battle Tank (LY4A2Kaz1 Phalanx): 200,000 * 10m+50bDPR (1m)= 1.65t (200b)
Urban Combat Tank (KazArms Street Rat): 200,000 * 6m (500,000)= 1.2t (100b)
Infantry Fighting Vehicle (KazArms IFV): 300,000 * 4m (400,000)= 1.20t (120b)
Armored Personnel Character (KazArms APC): 500,000 * 2.5m (300,000)= 125b (150b)
Light Armored Vehicles: 8m * 200,000 (20,000)= 1.6t (160b)
Self-Propelled Artillery: 150,000 * 6m (750,000)= 900b (112.5b)
Self-Propelled Anti-Air: 150,000 * 6m (750,000)= 900b (112.5b)
Supercarriers: 50 * 4b (60m)= 200b (3b)
Carriers: 300 * 800m (60m)= 240b (18b)
Amphibious Assault Carriers: 1500 * 500m (50m)= 750b (75b)
Missile Cruisers: 4000 * 700m (40m)= 2t (160b)
Destroyers: 3000 * 200m (10m)= 400b (30b)
Frigates: 2000 * 150m (16m)= 150b (32b)
Corvettes: 3000 * 100m (8m)= 200b (24b)
Gunboats: 2000 * 80m (5m)= 160b (10b)
Patrol Boats: 2000 * 50m (1m)= 50b (2b)
Submarines: 3000 * 2b (33m)= 4t (99b)
Nuclear-Capable Ballistic Missile Subs: 1000 * 2.4b (35m)= 1.2t (35b)
Mine Warfare Crafts: 1700 * 100m (10m)= 100b (17b)
Non-Carrier Fleet Fixed Wing Combat Aircraft: 40,000 * 200m (40m)= 8t (1.6t)
Non-Carrier Attack Helicopters/Gunships: 20,000 * 30m (5m)= 600b (100b)

Summery (Annual expenditures by category):
Annual budget: 42t
Infantry: 500b
Combat Vehicles: 995b
Warships: 535b
NCF Combat Aircraft: 1.7t
Support & Logistics: 14t
R&D: 15t
Misc: 6t

So? Is it total bullshit, or can I support something like this with a pop of 3.5b and an annual military budget of about $40t? (I get that this kind of force is utterly impossible in RL, but like I said, my region uses the calculator and nation page population, and the calculator says I have a military budget of more than 60x the RL USA)

Basically my region goes big because of the high numbers the economic calc gives us, if there is some reason these numbers are bullshit, even with the high military spending of some nations (a few nations in my region have 30, 80, and 110 trillion defense budgets), I'd love to hear it, so as to bring more realism to the region, as well as help developing more realistic numbers for my own nation.

EDIT: Also, here's what I embarrassingly call my 'military factbook,' still under construction. Please, those in the know, feel free to demolish any part of it with your logic, provided you set me on the path to improving what you've torn down via good advice: http://s15.zetaboards.com/ixnay/topic/6989934/1/#new

Well the US spends ~ 4.7 of its gdp on defense. You have a population 11.5 times higher and spend ~ 36% of your gdp (given near 100% tax rate) on defense. If your gdp per capita is roughly the same as the US your military expenditures could be up to 88 times that of the US. If your gdp per capita is higher that number could be higher as well.
Which becomes ~$700,000,000,000*88 which leads to a result of 61.6T. Which means if anything your actual expenditures are low.

by **DASHES** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:39 am

Jagalonia wrote:
x1 Selk Bag (Wearable Sleeping Bag)
x1 DIC Cleaning kit (Contains 2 Washcloths, a bar of soap, and 1 Brass cleaning rod. Can be used for soldier Hygiene, weapon cleaning, or [usually] both.)
x1 Infantryman Combat Manual (A paperback booklet containing firefight tactics, soldier etiquette, a glossary of terms, Service-rifle cleaning instructions a list of combat protocols, and much more.)
x1 Entrenching Tool
x1 Secondary Back-Up Canteen (Full of water)
x1 Tactical Dust Mask
x1 Universal Camo Fatigues (Enough for 1 change-of-clothes)
x3 MRE’s
x2 2400 Calorie ER Bar
x1 Flare

Because this is my trade, once again, I'll only be focusing on your infantry.
First, is this "selk" bag water proof? Does it have extra padding on the bottom for sleeping on the ground, because as infantry, I do find myself sleeping in the dirt often.
None of your infantry will bring a combat manual to the field. They should all have this information drilled into their heads by the time they hit the ground, if not, you have a serious problem.
Call that entrenching tool what it is...A shovel.
You won't need the ER bars, once again, smart troops will bring their own snacks to the field.
What about extra ammo? Grenades?
Where are the basic first aid supplies?
Finally, Most nations issue their soldiers a tactical vest to store other items, ammo, water, grenades, pace beads (These are very helpful on patrol). Do you issue your soldiers cammel backs? Or do they buy their own?

These are just some recomendations off the top of my head.

Really, I'm just waiting for people to insist that their soldiers can carry 2 rocket launchers, a LMG, and a laptop, without colapsing from the weight.

Ha, funny.

I'll rename the entrenching tool. I also see what you are saying about the Manual. I just thought it would be handy for infantry to have a source of reference in combat.

As for the rest of what you commented on, see below.

by **Jagalonia** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:04 pm

DASHES wrote:
Jagalonia wrote:
Because this is my trade, once again, I'll only be focusing on your infantry.
First, is this "selk" bag water proof? Does it have extra padding on the bottom for sleeping on the ground, because as infantry, I do find myself sleeping in the dirt often.
None of your infantry will bring a combat manual to the field. They should all have this information drilled into their heads by the time they hit the ground, if not, you have a serious problem.
Call that entrenching tool what it is...A shovel.
You won't need the ER bars, once again, smart troops will bring their own snacks to the field.
What about extra ammo? Grenades?
Where are the basic first aid supplies?
Finally, Most nations issue their soldiers a tactical vest to store other items, ammo, water, grenades, pace beads (These are very helpful on patrol). Do you issue your soldiers cammel backs? Or do they buy their own?

These are just some recomendations off the top of my head.

Really, I'm just waiting for people to insist that their soldiers can carry 2 rocket launchers, a LMG, and a laptop, without colapsing from the weight.

Ha, funny.

I'll rename the entrenching tool. I also see what you are saying about the Manual. I just thought it would be handy for infantry to have a source of reference in combat.

As for the rest of what you commented on, see below.

I believe the Selk Bag is waterproof, but even if its not, that's easy to fix with a modification or two. Here, read it's product description.

Also, read what I said about the Ration Bars. Its not a snack or morale treat, its a survival food on-the-go.
Lastly, the Ration Bars. They are already in use for emergency situations. They are quickly edible survival meals.
I think that Infantrymen under fire would find this useful when they've been fighting for the last 12 hours with no meal, they need some energy, and they need to be spending less time eating and more time shooting. Its basically a meal for whenever chopping on an MRE would be impractical.

Finally, the BDU, at the end of my Supply List post. The BDU itself is the Tactical Body Armor you speak of, and it has the IFAK and the Ammunition and Grenades you asked about.
It seems to me that you did not read the entirety of my post.
----------------------------------------------------
BDU Supply List (Combat supplies strapped onto user's tactical body armor. Used alongside either the Infantry Backpack or the Spec-Ops Package for combat deployments):

x1 Digital Watch
x1 ID Card
x1 fast-writing Pen and notepad
x1 6-Magazine Ammo Bag
x3 HE Grenade (w/Pouches)
x1 Flashlight (w/Pouch)
x1 IFAK (Improved First Aid Kit)
x1 EOD Bayonet (Can be used like a conventional knife, or strapped to a rifle)
x1 Pistol Grip Holster (Can holster any weapon with a pistol grip, including stockless Shotguns/Carbines)

Looking at the description of the selk bag, It doesn't appear to be waterproof. What I have in my kit, is a 4-layer sleeping bag, you have the inner liner, that can be removed for washing, 2 layers that you can attach to eachother, filled with down, and an outer waterproof "bag" that you can store it in. All of this gets stuffed inside another bag, that ends to be about half a meter tall, with a quarter meter diameter. On top of that, I have a ground sheet that I can set up as an improvised shelter, we all call it a hooch, you basicaly just tie the ground sheet to 2 trees, then spike it into the ground, it's a waterproof shelter you can stow your vest, and rucksack in. Finally, I have my air matress, it's "self inflating", it's also self-deflating when my fat ass sleeps on it. It also has it's own water proof bag. Below I have 2 links, the first displays the size of the kit I just mentioned unpacked, It's not that large, the second displays what it looks like packed. All together, it weighs about 20 pounds...
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae231/AgentTitan/IMG_0183.jpg
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae231/AgentTitan/IMG_0184.jpg

You've made your point on the ration bars, but I still wouldn't use them, as prolonged use can be detrimental to your soldier's health.

Finally, the vest.
A watch can be strapped to the soldier's wrist. The ID card can stay in their wallet, I have brest pockets that I keep my pens/notepads in on my uniform, that I still have access to even with a flack vest on.
Can you describe what you mean by "Ammo bag"? Because my tac vest can hold 10 magazines for my C7, plus 2 boxes of C9 box ammo, if I ditch my canteen for the camel back I normaly have.

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