Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

But unlike a disease, which generally has nothing to do with what you do, getting pregnant through a mistake is very silly. We shouldn't just grant you the easy way out (at the cost of a child, no less) because of your mistakes.

You usually get a disease by coming into a certain form of contact with a person carrying the disease.

You usually get pregnant by coming into a certain form of contact with a person carrying sperm.

[Neutraligon]

Of course. Which is why I get an abortion to deal with it, just like I'd do for any situation that requires medical attention.

But unlike a disease, which generally has nothing to do with what you do, getting pregnant through a mistake is very silly. We shouldn't just grant you the easy way out (at the cost of a child, no less) because of your mistakes.

It might be silly, it might not. We do not deny people who make silly decisions medical care. For instance we ensure smokers have medical care, we insure people who do extreme (or even regular) sports have medical care. Also, so you are now definitely saying pregnancy is a punishment....

[Killdash]

I note that this argument follows a evolutionary line of thinking. Since I do not follow that, it does not mean that much to me. From an intelligent design point of view, different answers are raised.

That's nice for you, but we're dealing in reality here, not fantasy worlds.

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

[Neutraligon]

That's nice for you, but we're dealing in reality here, not fantasy worlds.

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

Make another thread if you want to talk about evolution.

[Scomagia]

By what measure is a fetus alive?

Naturally, (ignoring spiritual answers, because no one will accept those, despite some proof in them.) the method is whether this baby is a growing and living thing. Its potential is unlimited, and we haven't yet answered questions on conscious or when that exists.

Can it, if removed from another being's body, continue to develop?

The answer, throughout the majority of a pregnancy, is no. Until a fetus reaches the point where it can exist without sharing the blood and body of an adult human, it is not, for all intents and purposes, alive. Also, you may not want to use consciousness as a basis for your argument, since in five month old infants, consciousness is slight. Indeed, they're only about as conscious as dogs, if not less so. Unless you're keen on defending animal person-hood, this may not be a path you want to travel down.

http://www.wired.com/2013/04/baby-consciousness/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opini ... 0&single=1

[Othelos]

No, we've answered it. http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v65/n3 ... 0950a.html

I note that this argument follows a evolutionary line of thinking. Since I do not follow that, it does not mean that much to me. From an intelligent design point of view, different answers are raised.

Evolution is observable, so denying it is also a denial of reality. Can you see how the basis of your thinking might be flawed?

[Mavorpen]

That's nice for you, but we're dealing in reality here, not fantasy worlds.

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

No I'm quite accepting of any potential flaws, as that would make the theory more accurate when they are addressed, which is a good thing.

No thank you, I'm not interested in anything not published in a peer reviewed medium if we're discussing science. Also, please take this sad excuse for a threadjack elsewhere.

[Cretan isles]

I believe that for the first 2 trimesters a woman should have the right to an abortion, but afterwards other services should be provided like adoption.

[Killdash]

But unlike a disease, which generally has nothing to do with what you do, getting pregnant through a mistake is very silly. We shouldn't just grant you the easy way out (at the cost of a child, no less) because of your mistakes.

It might be silly, it might not. We do not deny people who make silly decisions medical care. For instance we ensure smokers have medical care, we insure people who do extreme (or even regular) sports have medical care. Also, so you are now definitely saying pregnancy is a punishment....

By all means, provide counseling, medical care and alternate options. So basically, do as medicine should do, and heal and comfort, rather than just destroy.

[Elysium Of Heroes]

Well now, that's up for dispute.

Explain how anti choice has a higher moral standing, then?

Just clear up a few things for me here.

Why is a baby not alive when it's INSIDE the body, but ALIVE when out? If I remember correctly on the abortion laws, it is illegal to kill a baby after a certain amount of time. My opinion has several sides here. First off, After any being is able to think and process anything with a brain, they are alive. Yet even as early as 6 weeks, a baby has a somewhat developed nervous system, and thus IS ABLE TO FEEL. The "Fetus" (Which is Latin for "Little One" by the way) is able to feel, and think. As for Women's Rights, Well, What the heck did the baby do to deserve to DIE? Cause some discomfort? Even A lot of discomfort that comes with delivering a child? Oh well. Should have kept your legs closed. If it was Rape, I do tend to be more lenient IF she has some other plans that a pregnancy could completely ruin. (Ex. A major career course in College or University or something of the sort) If not I still ask. What did the child do? Punish the one who raped her, (and why didn't the girl use a morning after pill or spermicide RIGHT FREAKIN AFTER THE RAPE if she so desperately didn't want to get pregnant?) and put the child up for Adoption. I know some people say, "Oh, adoption life is so terrible" and all that, and I think it probably would be. But it's better than just KILLING the child. Next thing. Many call a child a Parasite. I have no sweet clue where that idea came from. First off, Let's look at a real parasite and COMPARE AND CONTRAST. Something we all learnt in school right? Let's look at the example of a Tapeworm. It can cause many health problems and hazards by eating away the stomach lining if not fed, as well as reproducing inside of you. It is an outside influence to you. It is something that is not supposed to be there. Let's now look at how Pregnancy works. While yes, it takes nutrients and energy, SO DOES EVERYTHING YOU DO. My moving my fingers to type? Though not much, it consumes energy. So the energy drain argument is nil. "It is emotionally draining" And so is a bad relationship, If you go through a bad breakup, it isn't Parasitic. Sorry to burst that bubble. My stance is that Rape caused pregnancies aren't all that common anyways. In accordance with this article, less than 1% of abortions are a cause of rape, and ALSO, going by those statistics Operation Rescue

Reasons why women get abortions

• 21% Inadequate finances - My opinion is they should have kept their legs closed if they weren't prepared for a child financially.
• 21% Not ready for responsibility - Now this is just stupid. If you weren't prepared for the consequences of your action, DON'T DO IT.
• 16% Woman’s life would be changed too much - Again. If I don't want to get thrown in jail, I don't go shooting. If you don't want a kid, don't spread your legs.
• 12% Problems with relationships, unmarried - AND AGAIN...
• 11% Too young and/or immature - why the heck are girls having sex if they are too young for their responsibilities?
• 8% Children are grown; she has all she wants - ... I can actually somewhat understand this having come from a family of 7 brothers and sisters, but if you don't want more kids, USE PROTECTION.
• 3% Baby has possible health problems - If my mother aborted children because of "Possible health problems" then I wouldn't be here, same with my little brother and sister.
• <1% Pregnancy caused by rape/incest - Rape I've already covered. But WHY would you screw a family member? that's just wrong...
• 4% Other - I can't judge these, cause I dunno why they aborted, but I still believe they should not have had abortions.

Next, I don't understand WHY most people claim that Pro-Life is all church people. CONSIDERING THESE STATISTICS.

Abortion by Religion

None - 24%
Prodestant - 42%
Catholic - 27%
Other - 7%

The statistics speak for themselves.

So now you tell me who has moral ground.

[Othelos]

That's nice for you, but we're dealing in reality here, not fantasy worlds.

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

If evolution isn't true, then why do you think that some antibiotics don't really work anymore?

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

*Starts to just type out a post full of hahahahaha*
*Rethinks that*
Let me assure you, we have considered the claims of the other side.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

[Alyakia]

That's nice for you, but we're dealing in reality here, not fantasy worlds.

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

and i love how god intelligently designed a bug specifically to eat human brains and how sometimes babies are born without brains. actually, the abortion debate would probably be a lot easier for you if god didn't make it so that there are so many dead at birth babies. maybe he should have designed them better? i dunno. i guess he works in mysterious ways, and the mysterious way just so happens to be brainless babies. bit of an own goal there for team god.

[Killdash]

I note that this argument follows a evolutionary line of thinking. Since I do not follow that, it does not mean that much to me. From an intelligent design point of view, different answers are raised.

Evolution is observable, so denying it is also a denial of reality. Can you see how the basis of your thinking might be flawed?

I feel the need to point out the difference between "Evolution" and "Natural selection".

[MERIZoC]

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

If evolution isn't true, then why do you think that some antibiotics don't really work anymore?

The bearded sky fairy.
*nods*

[Othelos]

I believe that for the first 2 trimesters a woman should have the right to an abortion, but afterwards other services should be provided like adoption.

third trimester abortions only take place due to medical necessity. So it's important that they be legal.

[Killdash]

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

No I'm quite accepting of any potential flaws, as that would make the theory more accurate when they are addressed, which is a good thing.

No thank you, I'm not interested in anything not published in a peer reviewed medium if we're discussing science. Also, please take this sad excuse for a threadjack elsewhere.

It's relavent, given that it's a big area for the morality of pro life.

The book is written by 9 PHD scientists, by the way.

[Othelos]

Evolution is observable, so denying it is also a denial of reality. Can you see how the basis of your thinking might be flawed?

I feel the need to point out the difference between "Evolution" and "Natural selection".

Natural selection is a very important part of evolution, actually. The result of natural selection is evolution.

[Neutraligon]

I believe that for the first 2 trimesters a woman should have the right to an abortion, but afterwards other services should be provided like adoption.

After the second trimester abortions are done due to life of the mother or the fact that the fetus is no viable.

[Elysium Of Heroes]

Your mother loved you enough to have you born. Why do you not love your child enough to have it born?

[Othelos]

No I'm quite accepting of any potential flaws, as that would make the theory more accurate when they are addressed, which is a good thing.

No thank you, I'm not interested in anything not published in a peer reviewed medium if we're discussing science. Also, please take this sad excuse for a threadjack elsewhere.

It's relavent, given that it's a big area for the morality of pro life.

The book is written by 9 PHD scientists, by the way.

Being pro-life politically is immoral, since it's immoral to infringe on someone else's bodily sovereignty.

[Killdash]

I love how evolutionists never, ever look at their theories flaws, and ruthlessly attack all alternate viewpoints. Intelligent design is a reality, in my opinion, and it is backed by a substantial amount of proof.

I'd check out the book "Evolutions Achilles heels", so that you can at least grasp where I'm coming from.

and i love how god intelligently designed a bug specifically to eat human brains and how sometimes babies are born without brains. actually, the abortion debate would probably be a lot easier for you if god didn't make it so that there are so many dead at birth babies. maybe he should have designed them better? i dunno. i guess he works in mysterious ways, and the mysterious way just so happens to be brainless babies. bit of an own goal there for team god.

These things are caused by the fall of man. Originally, all was perfect. These things entered the world though sin.

[Neutraligon]

Your mother loved you enough to have you born. Why do you not love your child enough to have it born?

My mother made a choice to give birth to me. If I have an abortion I am making a decision on if the fetus will be born. The fact that we make different choices still means we are making a choice.

[Mavorpen]

Your mother loved you enough to have you born. Why do you not love your child enough to have it born?

Because children are pretty gross to me.

[Scomagia]

Your mother loved you enough to have you born. Why do you not love your child enough to have it born?

That's very poor form. We here at NSG ostensibly practice in logic. Appeals to emotion are not, in any way, logical.