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Who should be the Democratic nominee for 2016?

Bernie Sanders
44
71%
Elizabeth Warren
18
29%
 
Total votes : 62

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Esperantujo 2
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Founded: Nov 24, 2008
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Postby Esperantujo 2 » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:28 pm

4years wrote:Neither of the two should be the Democratic candidate. Rather of either of them runs he or she should break with the Democratic Party entirely, run as Labor candidate, and appeal to the unions, existing left organizations (WIL, SA, SPUSA, CPUSA, the Justice Party, the Green Party, ISO, ICL, etc.), and to working people generally for support. The campaign should be conduct along clear class lines and additional support should be drawn from the civil rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, environmental and other such organizations. The masses who marched in the People's Climate March, in Flood Wall Street, and in the protests over events in Ferguson should be mobilized to the cause of labor. The Occupiers should be called back out onto the streets in labor marches and demonstrations and to the voting both to try and elect a labor candidate.

What is needed is not fussing with the Democratic Party by breaking with it altogether. Naturally I urge everyone to join the International Marxist Tendency (the Workers International League in the US) and to struggle for the socialist transformation of society. Failing that, we need a mass party of Labor based on the working people and sharply to the left of the Democrats. This is the perspective any left candidate should be running on, not one of capitulating to the Democrats (not that the Democrats will ever nominate a left candidate anyway) and thereby betraying the movement by encouraging illusions in a bourgeois and anti-worker party.

In the absence of a serious left alternative, the Democrats will likely win the next election with Hillary Clinton as the candidate. In the presence of such an alternative, it is possible that a Republican might win due to the spoiler effect, but it should be noted that the Republican candidate will be a 'moderate' rather than a Tea Party supporter and that the Democrats and the Republicans are not terribly different anyway- so we should not at all be deterred by that perspective as the Democratic leadership would like us to be. However, it is very likely that the official Democratic candidate will win the next presidential election in any case. The real task is not to worry about the next round of elections, but to strengthen the labor movement in the US and to capitalize on the shift to the left in the American (and the world) working class in the recent period to build up left parties and organizations to carry on the fight in the long term. The task is not to win the elections in 2016, but to fundamentally transform society.

The building of a Labor Party as a workers' party to the left of the Democrats ultimately pull the rug out from under the Democrats and would smash the Democrat-Republican dichotomy. The American proletariat is shapely to the left of either of the two major parties and would be drawn to a Labor Party which sought to mobilize it for the struggle in enormous numbers. This would be the political awakening of large segments of the proletariat and would enable the current capitalist system to be challenged on many points. It would also contribute immensely to the development of revolutionary Marxist and other such organizations working within and in a united front with this broader Labor Party.

I imagine only a handful of people have heard of the IMT. In contrast, the CWI-linked Socialist Alternative won a famous victory with the election of Kshama Sawant in Seattle, and is spearheading the campaign for $15 an hour minimum wage nationally. As I understand it, she won her victory as a socialist, not as a Labor candidate. I think SA is prepared to back Sanders as a left candidate but not as a Democrat. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with you. Maybe unions will change political allegiance local by local. Whatever the level of consciousness, the high hopes people had in Obama, and his complete failure to satisfy those hopes, must have an effect. However, I'm not, from here in England, going to make a prediction about the pace of events in the US.
Last edited by Esperantujo 2 on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sebastianbourg
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Founded: Apr 06, 2013
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Postby Sebastianbourg » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:06 pm

American 'left'!
:rofl:
Joke, I know leftist (including communist) parties exist in America but are insignificant. Furthermore, I'm aware of what you think liberalism is.
Last edited by Sebastianbourg on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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New Stinkonia
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Founded: Sep 29, 2014
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Postby New Stinkonia » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:13 pm

Bypass the corrupt US Congress to get back our democracy. http://www.wolf-pac.com

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Othelos
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Founded: Feb 05, 2013
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Postby Othelos » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:48 pm

Neither, and Elizabeth Warren has stated repeatedly that she isn't going to run.

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Toronina
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Founded: Oct 06, 2011
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Postby Toronina » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:36 pm

I think the Democrat's will end up with someone like Hillary, not someone who is best for the people.
Now I'm back in the ring to take another swing

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Benuty
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Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:37 pm

Murkwood wrote:Sanders? Winning? In the U.S.? Sure, right after the Pope becomes a Presbyterian, Hell becomes Nuuk on a good day, pigs make usage of the innovations of the Wright Brothers, and Bears take a cue from the Charmin TV ads.

Clearly haven't seen the this wondrous invention called indoor plumbing.

Welcome to the 1950s.
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Toronina
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Postby Toronina » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:37 pm

Sebastianbourg wrote:American 'left'!
:rofl:
Joke, I know leftist (including communist) parties exist in America but are insignificant. Furthermore, I'm aware of what you think liberalism is.

Honestltly, it's sad that the Democrat's are going further right, and the Republican's going further as well. Neither party is left wing IMO.
Now I'm back in the ring to take another swing

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Atlanticatia
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Postby Atlanticatia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:39 am

Even though it's likely that Sanders/Warren-style policies are exactly what Americans want, the right wing media will continue to get people (the white working class in particular) to vote for things like the tea party that are in their own worst interests. This is because, as Obama said, they "cling to their guns and religion". Many poor whites would benefit from social democracy and unions, but they give their allegiances to the social conservative religious right. I think that many of them vote on a single-issue basis with things like abortion.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:19 pm

Toronina wrote:
Sebastianbourg wrote:American 'left'!
:rofl:
Joke, I know leftist (including communist) parties exist in America but are insignificant. Furthermore, I'm aware of what you think liberalism is.

Honestltly, it's sad that the Democrat's are going further right, and the Republican's going further as well. Neither party is left wing IMO.
Having a left doesn't necessarily mean having a party, and a party won't save a left.
For instance, the russian left is about as noteworthy as the american left in present times, despite having the largest communist party around and having been, you know, a socialist state.
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Fortschritte
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Postby Fortschritte » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:36 pm

Toronina wrote:I think the Democrat's will end up with someone like Hillary, not someone who is best for the people.


I wouldn't be so sure. Hilary isn't even sure if she wants to run. Furthermore, what's wrong with Hilary? She's not ideal, but she's pretty damn good compared to the alternatives.
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4years
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Founded: Aug 17, 2012
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Postby 4years » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:01 pm

Esperantujo 2 wrote:1. I imagine only a handful of people have heard of the IMT. In contrast, the CWI-linked Socialist Alternative won a famous victory with the election of 2. Kshama Sawant in Seattle, and is spearheading the campaign for $15 an hour minimum wage nationally. 3. As I understand it, she won her victory as a socialist, not as a Labor candidate. I think 4. SA is prepared to back Sanders as a left candidate but not as a Democrat. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with you. Maybe unions will change political allegiance local by local. Whatever the level of consciousness, the high hopes people had in Obama, and his complete failure to satisfy those hopes, must have an effect. However, I'm not, from here in England, going to make a prediction about the pace of events in the US.


1. In the US you are correct. However, Internationally the IMT is considerably more influential than the CWI. More importantly the CWI is very theoretically lightweight and has a bad habit of trying to substitute the party for the class, mistakes which go right back to Peter Taaffe and his foolishness in breaking with Ted Grant and effectively negating 40 years of work with the Militant. Quite simply Taaffe was dead wrong with his "open turn" and the damage done by that in Britain has carried over into the whole CWI, which- incidentally- received a practical lesson in that not long ago in South Africa.

2. The trouble with that being that Comrade Sawant did not use her electoral victory effectively. SA has become overly obsessed with the electoral aspect of the struggle is is largely building Socialist Alternative rather than a workers' alternative. It lacks both a serious united front and the perspective of a mass party of labor. Furthermore while the work of Comrade Sawant has been generally positive she has made several mistakes that could be seen to encourage illusions in bourgeois democracy and left reformism.

3. That is correct, but that is an isolated incident and we should be clear that the next likely state in the US is the building of a mass labor party with Marxist and socialist tendencies within it rather than directly having a mass Marxist or revolutionary socialist party. The movement in the US is moving towards a break with the Democrats but the forces of Marxism are not yet strong enough to take direct leadership. Instead we should look to see the development of a labor party out of the unions and the mass protest movements that have taken place in the recent period.

4. Baking Sanders as a left, but not as a Democrat is absolutely a correct policy. Likewise you are correct in that the failure of Obama to might even a tiny fraction of the expeditions of the American proletariat is an important lesson. The American people have been through the school of the Democrats and are now coming to understand that neither major parry is on their side.
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Kravanica
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Founded: Aug 07, 2014
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Postby Kravanica » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:55 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:Rand Paul is a spineless nutjob and Ted Cruz is a batshit little weasel. Neither of them are much of a threat to Hillary.

This isn't to say the Repubs can't win, they can. But some teabagger loser isn't going to be the one to do it.

Keepin' it classy.
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Kravanica
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Postby Kravanica » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:57 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Fortschritte wrote:
Are you referring to the general public or elected officials? Because a fair chunk of the populace if left wing. They're not the majority, but they're not a minuscule group. When it comes to elected officials, there are plenty of left wingers on the local level, but few "true leftists" on a federal level.

There are no true leftists on a federal level. Sanders is centre, centre-left at best. And what chunk of the population is on the left then? If they aren't minuscule, why don't we have more socialist politicians, or even social democrats?

You don't need to be full-on socialist to be leftist.
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Senkaku
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Senkaku » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:57 pm

Why is Hillary not in the poll, out of curiosity?
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Kravanica
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Founded: Aug 07, 2014
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Postby Kravanica » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:58 pm

Senkaku wrote:Why is Hillary not in the poll, out of curiosity?

Cause her popularity's dropped big time.

And the only real accomplishment she has to her name is riding the waves of her husband.
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The Nuclear Fist
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Founded: May 02, 2010
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:22 pm

Kravanica wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:Rand Paul is a spineless nutjob and Ted Cruz is a batshit little weasel. Neither of them are much of a threat to Hillary.

This isn't to say the Repubs can't win, they can. But some teabagger loser isn't going to be the one to do it.

Keepin' it classy.

That's what they called themselves when they first oozed onto the scene.
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Camelza
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Founded: Mar 04, 2012
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Postby Camelza » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:26 pm

The American left has contributed enormously to the formation of the New left, civil rights, worker rights and generally to worldwide progressive movements all around the world, however it belongs to the realm of history.

Note that I don't consider even the most radical of Democrats to be left-wing.

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4years
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Postby 4years » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:47 pm

Senkaku wrote:Why is Hillary not in the poll, out of curiosity?


Because the the OP isn't a Hillary fan and this thread is meant to be about the American left, which Mrs. Clinton is decidedly not a part of.
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"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains. "
-Rosa Luxemburg
"In place of bourgeois society with all of it's classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, one in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all" -Karl Marx
There is no such thing as rational self interest; pure reason leads to the greatest good for the greatest number.

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The New Sea Territory
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Founded: Dec 13, 2012
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:51 pm

Kravanica wrote:
Merizoc wrote:There are no true leftists on a federal level. Sanders is centre, centre-left at best. And what chunk of the population is on the left then? If they aren't minuscule, why don't we have more socialist politicians, or even social democrats?

You don't need to be full-on socialist to be leftist.


You kinda actually do. Now, in this country a center-rightist is considered a damn socialist but that's the Republicans' fault.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:52 pm

Senkaku wrote:Why is Hillary not in the poll, out of curiosity?


She's not a leftist...
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Reploid Productions
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:03 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:But some teabagger loser

Hey now, if we smack folks for stuff like "Democrap," "Republicunt," and "Libertard," then we also need to smack for "Teabagger," despite its common usage elsewhere on the internet. Stop that.
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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:11 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:But some teabagger loser

Hey now, if we smack folks for stuff like "Democrap," "Republicunt," and "Libertard," then we also need to smack for "Teabagger," despite its common usage elsewhere on the internet. Stop that.

Alright, but I don't see the issue with "Teabagger". That is literally what they called themselves when the Tea Party was new.
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Reploid Productions
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:13 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Hey now, if we smack folks for stuff like "Democrap," "Republicunt," and "Libertard," then we also need to smack for "Teabagger," despite its common usage elsewhere on the internet. Stop that.

Alright, but I don't see the issue with "Teabagger". That is literally what they called themselves when the Tea Party was new.

Right up until somebody clued them in on the mainstream definition of that term, anyway. :P
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