Camelot: From Virtue, Victory!

[Cormac Pendragon]

Being ignored is fine, too. Ill just sit over here in the corner then...

Sorry, I was actually just skimming the posts yesterday and missed yours.

We're a defender region, but non-defenders are welcome as long as they respect that we are a defender region. The only part of the region in which you wouldn't be permitted is the Knights of Camelot. Otherwise, we'd love to have you!

[North East Somerset]

Yes, you are quite welcome to be a peasant.

Maybe you could even be permitted to clean armour for the Defender Knight's - so long as you don't put any scratches on it!

[Solorni]

What if he wants to be a serf?

[Yao]

Someone should dust off Unlimited and create a bravehart region.

[Solorni]

Idk, I think be in hung drawn and quartered would be a pretty crappy way to end ones time in a region.

[Kazmr]

Yes, you are quite welcome to be a peasant.

Maybe you could even be permitted to clean armour for the Defender Knight's - so long as you don't put any scratches on it!

Was there really a need for this?

[North East Somerset]

Yes, you are quite welcome to be a peasant.

Maybe you could even be permitted to clean armour for the Defender Knight's - so long as you don't put any scratches on it!

Was there really a need for this?

I was just making a point regarding creating 2nd class citizens based on R/D alignment. In the circumstances I can perfectly understand why that is the case, and to be honest I respect that decision.

[Kazmr]

Was there really a need for this?

I was just making a point regarding creating 2nd class citizens based on R/D alignment. In the circumstances I can perfectly understand why that is the case, and to be honest I respect that decision. But equally I'm quite sure I'd be criticized if I did that in a region I was involved in.

No, no you wouldn't. Just about every defender region I can think of would prohibit you from serving in both a defender military and a raider military at once, or cast serious suspicion on you for trying. Its not 'second class citizenship', its military practicality. Same goes for probably a raider region. I'm sure you knew that full well, but probably preferred to take an easy cheap shot.

[North East Somerset]

I was just making a point regarding creating 2nd class citizens based on R/D alignment. In the circumstances I can perfectly understand why that is the case, and to be honest I respect that decision. But equally I'm quite sure I'd be criticized if I did that in a region I was involved in.

No, no you wouldn't. Just about every defender region I can think of would prohibit you from serving in both a defender military and a raider military at once, or cast serious suspicion on you for trying. Its not 'second class citizenship', its military practicality. Same goes for probably a raider region. I'm sure you knew that full well, but probably preferred to take an easy cheap shot.

I was just being facetious about it. Does that make me a bad person?

[Kazmr]

I was just being facetious about it. Does that make me a bad person?

The worst

[Cormac Pendragon]

In The New Inquisition, if you join the United Defenders League or the Founderless Regions Alliance, or are a citizen of any of the latter's member regions, you are tried and invariably convicted of Membership in a Proscribed Organization. Before you say "yes, well, war!", this also extends to defender regions with which TNI is not at war, such as 10000 Islands. In The Land of Kings and Emperors, you are banned without trial.

I would know.

Allowing raiders to be fully participating citizens of our region, including our legislature which is open to all citizens, is leaps and bounds more progressive and welcoming than the practices of these imperialist regions. Obviously, if we are maintaining a military that only or at least primarily defends regions, it does not make sense to admit raiders to that military.

[North East Somerset]

In The New Inquisition, if you join the United Defenders League or the Founderless Regions Alliance, or are a citizen of any of the latter's member regions, you are tried and invariably convicted of Membership in a Proscribed Organization. Before you say "yes, well, war!", this also extends to defender regions with which TNI is not at war, such as 10000 Islands. In The Land of Kings and Emperors, you are banned without trial.

I would know.

You clearly wouldn't, that isn't how the Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012 works at all. Only members of specific regions and organisations are banned, and that list of hostile regions is not specific to defender regions. Being a member of a defender region is not an issue. Being a member of a region on Schedule I of the Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012, is this issue - not being a defender per se.

See, this reaction only proves me right earlier when I said earlier, "equally I'm quite sure I'd be criticized if I did that in a region I was involved in".

[Kazmr]

And if you don't want to be criticized, try not criticizing for what is essentially the same thing A defender military is, by definition, hostile to a raider military. You're not exactly doing anything to counter the argument...

[Onderkelkia]

In The New Inquisition, if you join the United Defenders League or the Founderless Regions Alliance, or are a citizen of any of the latter's member regions, you are tried and invariably convicted of Membership in a Proscribed Organization. Before you say "yes, well, war!", this also extends to defender regions with which TNI is not at war, such as 10000 Islands.

The Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012 has three categories of proscribed organisation: foreign states with which we are at war; foreign states listed in Schedule I to that statute; foreign states proscribed by an absolute majority of the Landtag with the approval of the König (this method has never been used). As North East Somerset points out above, none of these provisions intrinsically relates to membership of a defender region; there are defender regions which are neither at war with TNI nor listed Schedule I; conversely there are non-defender groups which fall under both of these categories.

For instance, TNI is at war with the GGR, while the Aeazen Combine and the Ascendancy are proscribed under Schedule I. These are not defender groups.

Where defender regions we are not at war with are proscribed under Schedule I, this is not because they are defender but because they have opposed or acted contrary to TNI interests in some respects - for which we would potentially proscribe any organisation, whether it is defender or not. For instance, Yggdrasil is proscribed under Schedule I as a result of the status of Valhalla. So these decisions are not at all made on a random anti-defender basis.

Moreover, to be convicted under the Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012, the person has to be aware that the organisation is proscribed for a period of at least three days, which protects those ignorant of the statute. If a person agrees to leave a proscribed organisation after being convicted, their citizenship will not usually be revoked; in routine cases this is only if they choose to defy the Court and persist in membership that this will occur. Moreover, waivers allowing a person to be a member of such a proscribed organisation can be granted and revoked by concurrence of any two of the following categories: either the König or their representative; either the Executive Director or the Director General of the intelligence service; a majority of the Privy Council.

So this does not extend to 'defender regions with which TNI is not at war'; it applies only to regions specifically proscribed (defender and non-defender).

In The Land of Kings and Emperors, you are banned without trial.

In the LKE, membership of the FRA, the UDL or (the other group we are at war with) the GGR is grounds for revoking citizenship, if after receiving a week's notice to rectify the situation, a citizen fails to do so. The Court makes the decision to revoke citizenship in such cases, so they must make a finding of fact that a person is a member of such a group. Such a person, if they respond to the week's notice, would be in a position to challenge such an application.

So the matter does go before the Court and due process is followed, with notice to the accused and the opportunity to refute the allegation they are a member of such a region, even if a full trial is not conducted (largely because typically this provision is onlyused where there is no doubt the accused is a member of such a group - in cases of alleged espionage or other such activities, prosecution for an offence contrary to the Treason Act is pursued instead).

It should be noted that the LKE's system only applies to the regions with which the LKE is war, not any other proscribed groups.

This is nothing to do with being in a defender region (GGR is hardly defender) and is everything to do with the declarations of war. The process is fair.

[Cormac Pendragon]

You clearly wouldn't, that isn't how the Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012 works at all. Only members of specific regions and organisations are banned, and that list of hostile regions is not specific to defender regions. Being a member of a defender region is not an issue. Being a member of a region on Schedule I of the Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012, is this issue - not being a defender per se.

See, this reaction only proves me right earlier when I said earlier, "equally I'm quite sure I'd be criticized if I did that in a region I was involved in".

And which regions and organizations are included?

[Onderkelkia]

You clearly wouldn't, that isn't how the Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012 works at all. Only members of specific regions and organisations are banned, and that list of hostile regions is not specific to defender regions. Being a member of a defender region is not an issue. Being a member of a region on Schedule I of the Hostile Foreign Affiliations Act 2012, is this issue - not being a defender per se.

See, this reaction only proves me right earlier when I said earlier, "equally I'm quite sure I'd be criticized if I did that in a region I was involved in".

And which regions and organizations are included?

Your interest in the law of The New Inquisition is most gratifying.

The Schedule I organisations are:

The Founderless Regions Alliance
The United Defenders League
10000 Islands
Texas
Yggdrasil
The Aeazen Combine
The Ascendancy

All of these, other than Texas, were mentioned in this thread prior to you asking this question.

As I pointed out above, the Aeazen Combine and The Ascendancy are non-defender regions. Additionally, GGR (which is proscribed by virtue of being at war with TNI rather than under Schedule I) is also a non-defender region. No region was proscribed for being specifically for being defender but for hostile acts against TNI interests (for instance the accusations made against Europeia and TNI in the case of the Ascendancy and the status of Valhalla for Yggdrasil).

The FRA and the UDL are included under Schedule I as, when the legislation originally went through, the legislature judged it expedient to include them under Schedule I so there would be a safeguard in place if peace was declared (though naturally the statute could be amended to remove them). At the time when the legislation was originally drafted, the war with GGR had not begun, hence why they are not also included within the provisions of Schedule I.

[Cormac Pendragon]

This is oh so many words to confirm what I already said. At the time this Act passed in 2012, the regions and organizations in Schedule I were the only defender regions and organizations that were in existence and active. The New Inquisition effectively intended to prohibit defenders from holding TNI citizenship when this Act passed in 2012. Why it hasn't been updated to include new defender regions such as Spiritus, Wintreath, etc., is anyone's guess, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with trying to foster a more welcoming community.

That you also include a Nazi region and some forum destroying regions in Schedule I does not mean that TNI wasn't trying to prevent defenders from holding citizenship with this Act in 2012. If anything, it's demeaning in the extreme that you include defenders among those that most regions prohibit from gaining citizenship, as if they're equivalent.

Regardless of your reasons, regardless of your semantics, you prohibit more defenders in TNI than Camelot does raiders, as we don't prohibit anyone from gaining citizenship based on extraregional affiliations alone. People in glass empires shouldn't throw stones.

[Onderkelkia]

This is oh so many words to confirm what I already said.

Actually, someone expressly disagreeing with you does not constitute confirming what you 'already said'.

At the time this Act passed in 2012, the regions and organizations in Schedule I were the only defender regions and organizations that were in existence and active.

On the contrary, quite apart from the question of whether other organisations 'were in existence and active', it is more than a small stretch to describe Yggdrasil and Texas as 'active' defender regions during this period as you do.

Other inactive defender regions existed which could have been included if we had desired to ban defenders in general. Such regions were not included.

The fact is that all regions were selected due to hostility to TNI interests, not due to being intrinsically defender.

Why it hasn't been updated to include new defender regions such as Spiritus, Wintreath, etc., is anyone's guess, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with trying to foster a more welcoming community.

It has not been updated to include these regions because merely being a defender region is insufficient to warrant inclusion on the list.

That you also include a Nazi region and some forum destroying regions in Schedule I

As has already been explained, GGR is not included in Schedule I; it is proscribed by virtue of a declaration of war alone (as has also been explained, it would have been in Schedule I if the declaration of war had been made prior to the statute being passed).

That you also include a Nazi region and some forum destroying regions in Schedule I does not mean that TNI wasn't trying to prevent defenders from holding citizenship with this Act in 2012. If anything, it's demeaning in the extreme that you include defenders among those that most regions prohibit from gaining citizenship, as if they're equivalent.

The statute does not pass moral judgements or equivalency. Regions are banned under this particular law for hostility to TNI, not moral reasons.

This law simply serves a functional purpose in providing a framework for criminal prosecutions for joining such regions.

It would have been pure decoration to create different schedules for different types of groups when precisely the same rules apply to them.

[North East Somerset]

Regardless of your reasons, regardless of your semantics, you prohibit more defenders in TNI than Camelot does raiders, as we don't prohibit anyone from gaining citizenship based on extraregional affiliations alone.

"Extraregional affiliations - so this is clearly an act of one sovereign state to another. However it is paraphrased, and whatever the practical considerations, it's different to saying all raiders/defenders can or cannot participate in an activity because of ideology. That difference is at the very heart of what I've been saying recently in Gameplay regarding Independence.

People in glass empires shouldn't throw stones.

Or sex parties, by any kind of conventional wisdom. But I didn't get where I am today...

[Cormac Pendragon]

Well, we aren't saying that anyone who has ever raided can't participate in the Knights of Camelot. Really, it's on a case by case basis. Someone who, for example, used to raid as well as participate in defensive operations for an independent region's military might well be accepted, while a Black Rider who is actively tag raiding on a nightly basis certainly wouldn't be. It's a situational matter, not really an ideological one.

The expectation is that Knights of Camelot won't be raiding while a knight. This has nothing to do with ideology, and everything to do with practical considerations such as operational security and conflicts of interest.

[Vojislav]

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=adventurius

This nation just posted a recruitment advert on The Pacific's RMB. I presume it is not actually affiliated with Camelot, but would appreciate confirmation.

Thank you.

[Cormac Stark]

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=adventurius

This nation just posted a recruitment advert on The Pacific's RMB. I presume it is not actually affiliated with Camelot, but would appreciate confirmation.

Thank you.

Definitely not. I've always been opposed to adspam; probably just someone trying to cause trouble. Camelot isn't currently even telegram recruiting at the moment.

[Vojislav]

Duly noted. Thank you for clarifying.