Relax gun laws

[Vissegaard]

i agree with this.

it will be much easier for the police to do their job if they can be more certain the criminals won't have the tools to shoot back too.

No one is made safer from increased weaponization of all citizens...

with more funding, better equipment, more numbers and broader powers to lay down the law, the police can have more success against the gangs...

Everybody knows that automatic guns are sold legally in gun stores and there is no such thing as the black market.

The black market should have the first priority of elimination, if our police was effective enough.

[Dyakovo]

Everybody knows that automatic guns are sold legally in gun stores and there is no such thing as the black market.

I'm confused about the second part.

It's sarcasm. As is the first part.

[Infected Mushroom]

I'm confused about the second part.

It's sarcasm. As is the first part.

ah ok, well then clearly we need more police to deal with the black market if it's such a big problem (i hope it's not).

[Infected Mushroom]

Everybody knows that automatic guns are sold legally in gun stores and there is no such thing as the black market.

The black market should have the first priority of elimination, if our police was effective enough.

yes. this.

[New Emmerian Coalition]

It's sarcasm. As is the first part.

ah ok, well then clearly we need more police to deal with the black market if it's such a big problem (i hope it's not).

Unfortunately it is. And Police lack the resources to fully combat it. That's why Gun Control is really tough, as there is no way to completely stop the Black Market.

[Infected Mushroom]

ah ok, well then clearly we need more police to deal with the black market if it's such a big problem (i hope it's not).

Unfortunately it is. And Police lack the resources to fully combat it. That's why Gun Control is really tough, as there is no way to completely stop the Black Market.

so they need more resources? more funding?

[Keyboard Warriors]

ah ok, well then clearly we need more police to deal with the black market if it's such a big problem (i hope it's not).

Unfortunately it is. And Police lack the resources to fully combat it. That's why Gun Control is really tough, as there is no way to completely stop the Black Market.

Do you know where the majority of black market firearms come from?

[New Colorado Republic]

Everybody knows that automatic guns are sold legally in gun stores and there is no such thing as the black market.

The black market should have the first priority of elimination, if our police was effective enough.

As we all know, this will be taken care of by the police for in an instant. The time it takes from law enforcement to take down the black market will be so quick, no law abiding citizens will be getting raped to death in the mean time.

And of course, there is no such thing as a corrupt police force. The helpless citizens will always be able to trust cops to keep them safe.

[New Emmerian Coalition]

Unfortunately it is. And Police lack the resources to fully combat it. That's why Gun Control is really tough, as there is no way to completely stop the Black Market.

so they need more resources? more funding?

Well, it depends on the area. Police here are well-equipped and well funded. Another problem is actually finding the Black Market hotspots, which is very tedious and hard, especially with professional gun-runners. That's how the Illegal Automatics make it to the criminals mostly. Police can usually target the smaller, local Black Market runners, but that is as easy as it gets. The Mafia, Drug Cartels, are still very active, and make billions off of their illegal gun trade. Most of their guns come from outside the United States as well, so it's a large problem and a big deal to the Police.

[Infected Mushroom]

The black market should have the first priority of elimination, if our police was effective enough.

As we all know, this will be taken care of by the police for in an instant. The time it takes from law enforcement to take down the black market will be so quick, no law abiding citizens will be getting raped to death in the mean time.

And of course, there is no such thing as a corrupt police force. The helpless citizens will always be able to trust cops to keep them safe.

it seems to be that way in the rest of the developed world though. Pretty much all of their people don't have guns and they aren't ravaged by massive gangs with illegal guns...

i don't get why America doesn't try it. They just need lots of cops first to fight the early battles... but eventually the waters should calm down. And then they can be like Japan, Norway etc...

[Vissegaard]

The black market should have the first priority of elimination, if our police was effective enough.

As we all know, this will be taken care of by the police for in an instant. The time it takes from law enforcement to take down the black market will be so quick, no law abiding citizens will be getting raped to death in the mean time.

And of course, there is no such thing as a corrupt police force. The helpless citizens will always be able to trust cops to keep them safe.

Digital monitoring systems cannot be corrupted.

[Infected Mushroom]

so they need more resources? more funding?

Well, it depends on the area. Police here are well-equipped and well funded. Another problem is actually finding the Black Market hotspots, which is very tedious and hard, especially with professional gun-runners. That's how the Illegal Automatics make it to the criminals mostly. Police can usually target the smaller, local Black Market runners, but that is as easy as it gets. The Mafia, Drug Cartels, are still very active, and make billions off of their illegal gun trade. Most of their guns come from outside the United States as well, so it's a large problem and a big deal to the Police.

i see.

well i wish them good luck. i really hope the good guys win in the end.

[New Colorado Republic]

As we all know, this will be taken care of by the police for in an instant. The time it takes from law enforcement to take down the black market will be so quick, no law abiding citizens will be getting raped to death in the mean time.

And of course, there is no such thing as a corrupt police force. The helpless citizens will always be able to trust cops to keep them safe.

it seems to be that way in the rest of the developed world though. Pretty much all of their people don't have guns and they aren't ravaged by massive gangs with illegal guns...

i don't get why America doesn't try it. They just need lots of cops first to fight the early battles... but eventually the waters should calm down. And then they can be like Japan, Norway etc...

Exactly! Statistics are always right and never skewed.

[AiliailiA]

Everybody knows that automatic guns are sold legally in gun stores and there is no such thing as the black market.

I'm confused about the second part.

It's that old chestnut "criminals will always be able to get a gun".

Yet in the UK we see that less than 10% of murders are committed with a gun. We can all agree that murderers are criminals, right?

In the US it's at least 69.4% (according to the FBI, and bearing in mind that if the "weapon not known to FBI" breaks down the same as known methods of murder, it would be 73.8%).

Regardless of whether the gun was owned legally before being used for murder, we can agree that murderers are criminals right?

Yeah, so really obviously it's easier for a criminal to get a gun in the US than it is in the UK.

[AiliailiA]

it seems to be that way in the rest of the developed world though. Pretty much all of their people don't have guns and they aren't ravaged by massive gangs with illegal guns...

i don't get why America doesn't try it. They just need lots of cops first to fight the early battles... but eventually the waters should calm down. And then they can be like Japan, Norway etc...

Exactly! Statistics are always right and never skewed.

Statistics whup the ass of "logic" when it comes to human behavior. Humans don't behave the way logic says they should. They don't even behave in their own best interests ... if they did, there would be almost none of them in prison.

[Infected Mushroom]

I'm confused about the second part.

It's that old chestnut "criminals will always be able to get a gun".

Yet in the UK we see that less than 10% of murders are committed with a gun. We can all agree that murderers are criminals, right?

In the US it's at least 69.4% (according to the FBI, and bearing in mind that if the "weapon not known to FBI" breaks down the same as known methods of murder, it would be 73.8%).

Regardless of whether the gun was owned legally before being used for murder, we can agree that murderers are criminals right?

Yeah, so really obviously it's easier for a criminal to get a gun in the US than it is in the UK.

i see...

yeah that's what I thought too. If you ban the guns and you do it right, it should become very hard for the criminals to get the guns, very hard indeed... at least eventually.

[Kaylea]

All I'm saying is, that because we have a problem with legal guns, which you acknowledged, shouldn't we do something about it.a, instead of assuming "well, then we'll have an illegal gun problem?"

US gun homicide stats are measured in a rather strange manner. They don't go on whether a person is found guilty of murder, but on whether a person was killed. This means that even if a person is found not guilty - like in the case of self defence - they will still be a little number on a homicide rate graph. US gun homicide rate is an unreliable statistic, as it is bloated by lawful killings - those in defence of self or others. Therefore, the " problem" is almost certainly nowhere near as bad as it seems from looking at the numbers.

Ooh, and I've put a couple more sources and articles in a previous post.

We don't want bloody guns. End of. Leave them to the gun nuts across the pond who love imagining themselves as Rambo while their children blast each other's brains out.

[AiliailiA]

As we all know, this will be taken care of by the police for in an instant. The time it takes from law enforcement to take down the black market will be so quick, no law abiding citizens will be getting raped to death in the mean time.

And of course, there is no such thing as a corrupt police force. The helpless citizens will always be able to trust cops to keep them safe.

it seems to be that way in the rest of the developed world though. Pretty much all of their people don't have guns and they aren't ravaged by massive gangs with illegal guns...

i don't get why America doesn't try it. They just need lots of cops first to fight the early battles... but eventually the waters should calm down. And then they can be like Japan, Norway etc...

What, suicidal rather than homicidal?

The rub is in "eventually". There are just so many privately owned guns in the US (perhaps more than there are people, perhaps only half as many, the government record of gun sales and ownership is THAT bad!) That constitutes an enormous supply flexibility which will delay any demonstration of positive effects (keeping guns out of the hands of criminals) by years or decades after the implementation of (hypothetical) nation-wide gun sale restrictions. The gun rights folks will make hay: "look, it didn't make any difference" they will say, and they'll be right on the time-scale that politics operates on.

Anyway, I think there's some scope for increased gun control. Requiring private sales to perform a background check and for buyer and seller to both keep records including ID of each other. How they do it in Switzerland btw. The record is required to be kept for ten years. That should cover the vast majority of people trying to obtain a gun because they plan to commit a crime with it. I also like the limit of 3 guns per licensed gun owner which they have in Switzerland.

[Dyakovo]

I wish people would take some time and research this a bit.

- Chicago has strict gun-control. This cannot be an example for why we need more. The people here were indeed disarmed, and the criminals obtained their firearms illegally via the black market. Contrary to popular belief, fully-automatic AKs are not for sale everywhere, the ATF has its eye on those.

- This is a tragic, TRAGIC event. But this isn't the time to run around screeching "GUNS ARE BAD" or "JUST BAN GUNS" because, A: We have a corrupt Gov't in many eyes. B: We do want the chance to defend ourselves; the police won't and do not arrive in time in many circumstances, and C: Americans already have too many guns for gun control to be effective.

Before you fly off the handle and say "YOU JUST WANT MORE MURDER" or anything:

I'm very afraid of guns. I live in the state of Arizona, where there are many guns. In fact, it's not unusual for me to see a guy with a glock strapped to his leg when going to Wal-Mart. But guns ARE scary. They damn well should be. The power to take a human life? It's very damn scary. But that's the world we live in. Ask yourself this: if you were in that situation, and there were no police nearby and you are seconds from death, would you want a chance to protect yourself?

I know I would. Guns are scary and they are meant to be. But banning them won't help. Chicago is a prime example of this. I hate coming on NSG because my views are ridiculed and I'm thought to be a murderer just because I believe in the 2nd Amendment fully. Yes, I don't think guns should be banned. Do we need more police? Yes, we most likely do. Do we need education and help for the mentally ill? YES. We do. Do we need mandatory gun-education courses for gun-buyers at their local range/gunstore? Yes we do.

Will banning guns or limiting them work? Not. At. All.

Please, instead of ridiculing me, or anything like that, please take my view into consideration. I'm damn afraid of guns and I hate the people who use them for evil, but if someone threatens me or my family and they're in my home, I'll be sure if I have the capabilities to defend myself. I want to live my life without EVER hurting another human being, but that's not the way this world works, and that makes me sad. But I can't worry about that, and take every day for what it is.

Consider my view point. Please. I don't identify as Liberal or Conservative. I came on this thread because I felt I needed to point this out.

Oh, I decided to address something else.
You claim that the crime rate in Arizona is lower because of everyone having guns.

Pheonix Arizona Crime Statistics
Murders (per 100,000)	123	(8.3)
Rapes (per 100,000)	556	(37.4)
Robberies (per 100,000)	3,516	(236.7)
Assaults (per 100,000)	5,263	(354.3)
Burglaries (per 100,000)	17,912	(1,205.8 )
Thefts (per 100,000)	35,678	(2,401.7)

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ph ... izona.html

New York City Crime Statistics
Murders (per 100,000)	419	(5.1)
Rapes (per 100,000)	1162	(14.0)
Robberies (per 100,000)	20,201	(243.7)
Assaults (per 100,000)	31,211	(376.5)
Burglaries (per 100,000)	18,635	(224.8 )
Thefts (per 100,000)	115,935	(1,398.6)

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ne ... -York.html

[United Prefectures of Appia]

Chicago's underfunded police department and importing guns from Indiana are the main culprits right there.

[Quintium]

i don't get why America doesn't try it. They just need lots of cops first to fight the early battles... but eventually the waters should calm down. And then they can be like Japan, Norway etc...

You're mentioning countries that are racially and culturally homogenous, though, and adhere to 'high values'. In Norway, culture dictates that murder is always wrong. In Japan, culture dictates that to kill is a crime against honour, which is why Japan forces murderers into a psychologically destructive prison regime and executes them at random times. If you want another example of a country where not the lack of firearms but racial and cultural homogeneity lead to low homicide rates, that's Iceland. There are around 90,000 privately-owned firearms for 325,000 people in Iceland, and yet their homicide rates are among the world's lowest (save for some microstates and Japan).

In the United States, you'll find that it's not that easy. It's not rednecks with legal guns doing most of the killing, so taking their guns away would be fairly useless. Even if you take all civilian firearms, you'll find that homicide rates won't change much, as they haven't changed that much in places where firearms have been banned already. The United States is culturally and racially diverse, and you'll see that different cultures have different approaches to murder. African-Americans, for example, tend to be a lot more casual about violence in general and about murder, something which is exacerbated by the gangster culture that is omnipresent in their communities. As a result, African-Americans are the perpetrators in a majority of all homicides in the United States despite accounting for much less than one-fifth of the total population.

Basically, the only way to drastically lower homicide rates would be to export the current American population and import Iceland's, or Japan's, or Norway's. It's the attitude that kills, not the gun.

EDIT: Oh, and if you want the exact opposite of Iceland, try Kenya. That country has some very tough gun laws, and also one of the world's highest homicide rates.

[AiliailiA]

All I'm saying is, that because we have a problem with legal guns, which you acknowledged, shouldn't we do something about it.a, instead of assuming "well, then we'll have an illegal gun problem?"

US gun homicide stats are measured in a rather strange manner. They don't go on whether a person is found guilty of murder, but on whether a person was killed. This means that even if a person is found not guilty - like in the case of self defence - they will still be a little number on a homicide rate graph.

Bullshit. Justifiable homicide is counted separately, and btw the vast majority of such killings are done by police. Not "law abiding gun owners".

US gun homicide rate is an unreliable statistic, as it is bloated by lawful killings - those in defence of self or others.

Bullshit! You just don't like any statistic that doesn't support your opinion.

Therefore, the " problem" is almost certainly nowhere near as bad as it seems from looking at the numbers.

If even half of those homicides are justifiable homicides (and of course they're not, it's far less than that) you'd still have a murder rate twice that of the UK.

Dodge THAT statistic!

[Gauthier]

Gun control doesn't work when neighboring regions practically give away guns.

[AiliailiA]

Gun control doesn't work when neighboring regions practically give away guns.

The FBI had a program to trace guns used in crime to their state of sale. I can't seem to find it now. Perhaps budget cuts killed it off.

[Dyakovo]

Gun control doesn't work when neighboring regions practically give away guns.

The FBI had a program to trace guns used in crime to their state of sale. I can't seem to find it now. Perhaps budget cuts killed it off.

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