Post Scrubbing in the Appropriate Threads for NSG Thread

[Caninope]

Why has there been post scrubbing of several posts that were critical of Moderation and/or Max Barry in the "Appropriate Threads for NSG" thread?

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 2f]

Indeed I am wondering why my post...

So, to be clear, Max Barry is on the record with the position that rape survivors and the mentally ill should not speak about their experiences in public, because he knows better than they do what's best for them? He does not have any objection to this position being attributed to him? Because, as a consumer of books, that's the sort of thing I like to know about authors before I purchase their products, and I think if that's a position he stands behind, it's only reasonable that we help let his potential readers know about it.

...was removed from that thread.

Thank for your assistance in this matter.

[Rich and Corporations]

As OP, I must say that I agree in particular with this moderational action for these posts do not align with the intent of the thread.

[Edlichbury]

I'd also like to ask why those posts were removed while a post actively noted by moderation as a troll post that has great potential to offend many was not and further why, after having this exact discussion in the Suggestion Box - even with the same involved players - we yet again must discuss if moderation should delete harsh posts.

[Trotskylvania]

As OP, I must say that I agree in particular with this moderational action for these posts do not align with the intent of the thread.

Asskissing is not constructive.

I too, would like an explanation as to why critical comments towards moderation were buried.

[Reploid Productions]

It is not uncommon for off-topic material to be split from a forum thread, depending on factors such as the length of the thread, the quantity of off-topic material, and the overall quality of the thread itself. Sometimes threads just get so far off the rails that it is too difficult to do, and thus the thread gets locked; sometimes there's little enough that a "Stay on target!" is sufficient to nudge it back on track, and sometimes it falls in the middle where cleaning out the derail is the most effective approach.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, as there were apparently other off-topic posts we missed that should have been split off as well. One of my colleagues is currently giving the thread a more thorough check to correct this oversight.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[NERVUN]

viewtopic.php?p=18998020#p18998020

I THINK I got everything. If I missed something, please link and I'll either get to it this afternoon after tests are done or another Mod will wander by and do the honors.

[Wamitoria]

It is not uncommon for off-topic material to be split from a forum thread, depending on factors such as the length of the thread, the quantity of off-topic material, and the overall quality of the thread itself. Sometimes threads just get so far off the rails that it is too difficult to do, and thus the thread gets locked; sometimes there's little enough that a "Stay on target!" is sufficient to nudge it back on track, and sometimes it falls in the middle where cleaning out the derail is the most effective approach.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, as there were apparently other off-topic posts we missed that should have been split off as well. One of my colleagues is currently giving the thread a more thorough check to correct this oversight.

(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

Quick question. Is it going to be policy in the future to delete off-topic posts in their entirety in the general forum?

[Edlichbury]

I'd like an explanation for why it was ruled the vonner's post was "off-topic."

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 2f]

It is not uncommon for off-topic material to be split from a forum thread, depending on factors such as the length of the thread, the quantity of off-topic material, and the overall quality of the thread itself. Sometimes threads just get so far off the rails that it is too difficult to do, and thus the thread gets locked; sometimes there's little enough that a "Stay on target!" is sufficient to nudge it back on track, and sometimes it falls in the middle where cleaning out the derail is the most effective approach.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, as there were apparently other off-topic posts we missed that should have been split off as well. One of my colleagues is currently giving the thread a more thorough check to correct this oversight.

(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

Quick question. Is it going to be policy in the future to delete off-topic posts in their entirety in the general forum?

And if this is the case please codify it in the OSRS.

Thanking you kindly.

Please find cookies, beverages and assorted sundries in praise of your actions that are protecting us all from evil thoughts and actions. And words. Mostly words.

[Mly]

It is not uncommon for off-topic material to be split from a forum thread, depending on factors such as the length of the thread, the quantity of off-topic material, and the overall quality of the thread itself. Sometimes threads just get so far off the rails that it is too difficult to do, and thus the thread gets locked; sometimes there's little enough that a "Stay on target!" is sufficient to nudge it back on track, and sometimes it falls in the middle where cleaning out the derail is the most effective approach.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, as there were apparently other off-topic posts we missed that should have been split off as well. One of my colleagues is currently giving the thread a more thorough check to correct this oversight.

(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

I would like to point out that this clearly and utterly fails to answer anything as to what the OP was actually asking.

[Reploid Productions]

Quick question. Is it going to be policy in the future to delete off-topic posts in their entirety in the general forum?

I think my first paragraph answered that: it depends on the thread length, thread quality, and how big the derail is. This is not a new policy, it's one of many such tools available for use on a case-by-case basis.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Nazi Flower Power]

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=18998020#p18998020

I THINK I got everything. If I missed something, please link and I'll either get to it this afternoon after tests are done or another Mod will wander by and do the honors.

If you were trying to remove the anti-depressed people trolling, you missed a post.

viewtopic.php?p=18966520#p18966520

I'd also like to know why my last post in the thread was deleted. The post I was replying to is still there, and both posts are on the same subject.

[Ostroeuropa]

Why has there been post scrubbing of several posts that were critical of Moderation and/or Max Barry in the "Appropriate Threads for NSG" thread?

Several posts where some horrible person suggested that maybe if the posts were removed for being off topic we should just put them in our signatures instead was also deemed off-topic, I assume, and deleted.
So, quick question, were the posts where this monster advocated putting:

So, to be clear, Max Barry is on the record with the position that rape survivors and the mentally ill should not speak about their experiences in public, because he knows better than they do what's best for them? He does not have any objection to this position being attributed to him? Because, as a consumer of books, that's the sort of thing I like to know about authors before I purchase their products, and I think if that's a position he stands behind, it's only reasonable that we help let his potential readers know about it.

Into signatures deleted for being off topic?
Or was it deleted for being inflammatory or something. If that's the case, we could just make the text in the signature big, red, and bolded to protect people from it's effects, in line with moderation practice.

[Caninope]

It is not uncommon for off-topic material to be split from a forum thread, depending on factors such as the length of the thread, the quantity of off-topic material, and the overall quality of the thread itself. Sometimes threads just get so far off the rails that it is too difficult to do, and thus the thread gets locked; sometimes there's little enough that a "Stay on target!" is sufficient to nudge it back on track, and sometimes it falls in the middle where cleaning out the derail is the most effective approach.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, as there were apparently other off-topic posts we missed that should have been split off as well. One of my colleagues is currently giving the thread a more thorough check to correct this oversight.

(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

And how were the posts in question off topic? As I literally pointed out, discussing the liability of the site is appropriate. Discussing what Max does or does not want on the site is entirely appropriate.

Reppy, this is too far. Moderation and Max got called, and it got shut down, just like every time before, except that some Moderator decided that instead of just locking the thread (like what happened with all of our complaint threads before), there were going to hide them altogether.

[Edlichbury]

It is not uncommon for off-topic material to be split from a forum thread, depending on factors such as the length of the thread, the quantity of off-topic material, and the overall quality of the thread itself. Sometimes threads just get so far off the rails that it is too difficult to do, and thus the thread gets locked; sometimes there's little enough that a "Stay on target!" is sufficient to nudge it back on track, and sometimes it falls in the middle where cleaning out the derail is the most effective approach.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, as there were apparently other off-topic posts we missed that should have been split off as well. One of my colleagues is currently giving the thread a more thorough check to correct this oversight.

(Image)
~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

And how were the posts in question off topic? As I literally pointed out, discussing the liability of the site is appropriate. Discussing what Max does or does not want on the site is entirely appropriate.

Reppy, this is too far. Moderation and Max got called, and it got shut down, just like every time before, except that some Moderator decided that instead of just locking the thread (like what happened with all of our complaint threads before), there were going to hide them altogether.

I think we all should reflect on the Suggestion Box.

Mods deleted a post of Vonners. It was propagated wildly, Caninope, myself, and Vonners were critical of the decision to take it down, eventually it was reinstated and the controversy quickly went away.
Now, mods have deleted a post of Vonners. It is propagated wildly, Caninope, myself, Vonners, and others are criticizing the decision to take it down, moderation has removed even more posts and the issue has not gone away.

I'd like if not consistency at least some regard for effective policies that serve to actually remedy tensions.

[Reploid Productions]

If you believe that moderation has made an error, or that a moderator is actively abusing their position, please file a Getting Help report and admin will review it. Be sure to include any relevant links. Getting Help reports cannot be altered or deleted by any moderator, so it ensures a permanent record of the complaint for admin review.

NFP- Will poke one of the others about the post you asked about. Sorry 'bout that. Sadly, I fear that the attempt to clean the thread up and put it back on track may have been in vain, but I guess we'll have to see.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Admin
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[[violet]]

I'm posting here in response to a Getting Help Request that alleged moderator misbehavior in deleting some posts as described above. This GHR requested direct admin intervention, which is a process we provide for serious cases of alleged moderator corruption.

So I took a look at the deleted posts. They were not what I would characterize as reasonable attempts to make an argument. Posters are free to criticize site policy, or moderators, or anyone else they please--certainly nobody here is infallible, and we make mistakes, and we like those mistakes to happen out in public, where everyone can see them. But we do require that posters refrain from posting insults, flamebait, and so on. These should be removed by moderators and that was done in this case. Posts were left that were critical of site policy, moderators, etc, but made their points without excessive flaming.

[[violet]]

I decided to post again to address the broader issue of threads about changing Moderation policies and practices. Because those have popped up lately, but ended in a way that's frustrating for all sides.

For a forum, we're extremely open about how moderators operate. Our rules and policies are all documented (in excruciating detail) and debated (likewise). Unlike pretty much everywhere else, we have a dedicated "Moderation" forum in which people can ask questions and query moderators, and everyone can see their exchanges. This isn't how forums usually work, because it makes life much harder for mods, with everything they do scrutinized, debated, and requiring documentation. But that's what we've decided to do.

We are all interested in being the best forum we can be. When good suggestions for improvements come along, we listen to them. When mistakes are made, we analyze. And we share this out in public where it's possible and practical to do so.

However, I sometimes feel that people take this openness for granted--that of course moderators should have to justify everything they do, and be prepared for any misstep to be used against them. To a degree, this is understandable; public scrutiny is the whole idea. But there's also a point at which it becomes counter-productive, engendering a kind of seige mentality where moderators fear saying anything because of motivated parties waiting to use their words against them.

What concerns me about some of the "How to improve Moderation" threads is where they become cover for raising past perceived wrongs, especially when done in an insulting and indirect way. Because those aren't real attempts to suggest site improvements.

It's fine to disagree with moderator decisions, but we have a separate process for that. For a suggestion thread to work, it needs to contain genuine, well-intentioned ideas, with genuine, well-intentioned debate. This is what everybody really wants, I think. But once a poster begins to use the thread to drop dark allegations about alleged moderator misbehavior--especially when it's emotive, exaggerated, and/or vague--it falls apart. It's no longer a genuine suggestion thread; it's a thread that attacks moderators.

We've wound up with a few threads recently that start well but are derailed like this. Then moderators feel they need to respond to the allegations, but they're unable to because the allegation is vague and it would be off-topic. In some cases, they remove posts for being flamebait and/or off-topic, and may eventually lock, leaving genuine posters frustrated because their suggestions weren't heard or engaged with.

Suggestion threads can and do work when they're well-intentioned. We deal with them in Technical all the time. They work best when the suggestion is a single, simple idea, not a long laundry list, and clearly articulate the pros and cons of the proposed change.

But most of all, they need to be genuine, coming from a real belief that this idea would improve the site--not a cover for raising complaints about things moderators did in the past.

Going forward, I'd like everyone to keep this in mind. I know some posters feel aggrieved by particular moderator decisions in the past, some very deeply, but regardless of who was right and who was wrong, raising those issues in a suggestion thread will derail well-intentioned discussion about how to improve the site for the future. They need to be left at the door. And if they're not, moderators need to remove them--not to suppress criticism, but because those kinds of posts kill the thread.

I'd be grateful if we could all cool it for a couple of weeks, with any suggestions in the meantime that can't wait to be posted as a Help Request rather than a new thread, to give everyone a chance to consider and recalibrate.

Then I hope we can come back to the topic with a positive, productive spirit. Good suggestion threads benefit us all.

[Ardchoille]

During the events discussed above, a number of posters were banned for 10 days. Divair, Edlichbury, The Steel Magnolia, Caninope, Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 2f and WIkkiwallana were banned for continued baiting/misinformation and accusations of other players.

After a review by uninvolved moderators of the threads concerned, the bans on Caninope and Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 2f have been rescinded, as it was found that though they made general references they did not specifically name individuals. Two of Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 2's nations deleted for posting past ban have been restored.

The posts in which the banned players broke the rules have been removed from the thread for legal reasons. Spamming by Wikkiwallana has also been removed.