Condemn Aegara

[WWII History Geeks]

See? just ignore him, this will all be forgotten in a week.

Wheres the fun in forgetting it?

Where's the fun in not forgetting it? Why, Aegara would be having it, of course!

He's gonna have fun being the delegate of Central, a nice lil' backwater retirement home for bad delegates, who aren't so grand anymore.

I wonder...could we exile nations to a certain place where they can't leave? Someplace without a delegate, but something permanent too. Like jail on NS.

I suggested it a while ago, the problem is, can you imagine something like 'Exile Alsted' ?... It would just be a total abuse of the system.

Says who? The extremist liberals? Pfht. It's Law and Order. But, I suppose it's only an idea.

[Krioval]

I like it, Nai. I'd add dates, and some more specifics.. include the number of innocent GCs who he unknowingly ejected to do his bidding, and the names of the two delegates who have done this ploy in the past. Also, Is the capitalization of 'condemnation' and 'condemned', intentional?

And I'd include his past attempt to undermine the WA with his 'Condemn Aegara' scheme, and dates for that.

And, maybe include something about 10000 islands .. maybe, that could help to get the 10k crowd on your side. Which is always a nice vote to have.

While you're back there, why not include something about Sedge, Mousebumples, AO (individually or collectively), AMOM, and Unibot? I'd hate for anybody's citizenry to feel left out.

Aleksei-kan Volkov
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[WWII History Geeks]

I like it, Nai. I'd add dates, and some more specifics.. include the number of innocent GCs who he unknowingly ejected to do his bidding, and the names of the two delegates who have done this ploy in the past. Also, Is the capitalization of 'condemnation' and 'condemned', intentional?

And I'd include his past attempt to undermine the WA with his 'Condemn Aegara' scheme, and dates for that.

And, maybe include something about 10000 islands .. maybe, that could help to get the 10k crowd on your side. Which is always a nice vote to have.

While you're back there, why not include something about Sedge, Mousebumples, AO (individually or collectively), AMOM, and Unibot? I'd hate for anybody's citizenry to feel left out.

Aleksei-kan Volkov
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

*nods* Good ideas.

[Naivetry]

Thanks for the suggestions. Added the date, the number of ejectees, and the previous delegates to employ this technique, and fixed a typo or two.

Uni - yeah, the capitalization is intentional. It's a habit of mine to distinguish between ordinary diplomatic condemnations and the actual Condemn function of the WASC (as with liberate vs. Liberate).

The World Assembly,

Noting the ejection of 156 WA member nations from Grand Central by its former Delegate, Aegara, on April 6, 2010,

Having determined that Aegara orchestrated this betrayal of his home region in order to seize the World Assembly Delegacy of The Rejected Realms from its long-serving Delegate, Kandarin,

Disturbed by the consequent drop in the quality of The Rejected Realms' barbecue,

Dismayed by Aegara's abuse of the trust placed in him as the former Delegate of Grand Central,

Recognizing this tactic as one employed on two other occasions, by Red Kagran of Taijitu and Emperor Matthuis of The North Pacific, within the past three years,

Suspecting that Aegara desires to be Condemned by the World Assembly, as demonstrated by a previously unsuccessful attempt to pass his own Condemnation in December 2009,

Disappointed, however, that Aegara has chosen to employ an unoriginal gimmick in his pursuit of short-term power and infamy,

Confident that a Condemnation criticizing Aegara's untrustworthiness, unoriginality, and uninspired barbecue will not be mistaken for a badge of honor,

Hoping that such a Condemnation will discourage other World Assembly Delegates from behaving in a similarly overdone and underhanded way with their endorsers,

Hereby Condemns Aegara.

I don't want to bring in the TITO repeal. I think we kind of beat that whole issue to death, no? If it matters to TITO, I'm sure they can make their own decision about how it should influence their vote, rather than having the entire World Assembly fight that battle all over again.

For ease of reference (and many more links can be provided for the Red Kagran/Emperor Matthuis versions of this ploy, if anyone would like them):

Red Kagran in TRR (July 2007): http://z8.invisionfree.invalid.com/The_RR_and_R ... topic=1657
Emperor Matthuis in TRR (October 2007): http://z8.invisionfree.invalid.com/The_RR_and_R ... topic=1778
Aegara's self-authored Condemnation: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=26223
AMOM's prepped repeal in case it passed: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27899

As others have said, Aegara is not the first delegate to make this sort of move to temporarily take over TRR delegacy. What makes Aegara's actions, in this specific case, more worthy than others who have done this before him?

We couldn't Condemn them, capital C... it was 2007 and the function didn't exist. And while I'd love to start Condemning nations and regions for some of the more infamous escapades of Gameplay interregional politics throughout history (and both of those count, though the Red Kagran version more so than Emperor Matthuis's), there's a practical statute of limitations on these things, defined by how many people on our side of the game are still around who care. This latest attempt by Aegara is relevant, because of its immediacy, and it's our first chance to try a Condemnation on something that's actually a Gameplay political event... which is why I'd like to see it go forward.

Still looking for some kind of humorous tag on the end ("and wags its finger with stern disapproval in his direction" doesn't quite cut it).

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

I don't want to bring in the TITO repeal. I think we kind of beat that whole issue to death, no?

OH NO!! Nai, you just have to mention the TITO repeal. This condemnation wouldn't be complete without it. That's like, the icing on the cake, the gin in the vermouth.

[Krioval]

I don't want to bring in the TITO repeal. I think we kind of beat that whole issue to death, no?

OH NO!! Nai, you just have to mention the TITO repeal. This condemnation wouldn't be complete without it. That's like, the icing on the cake, the gin in the vermouth.

Exactly! Ratings will never be higher! Make sure to mention how condemning Aegara will lead to a new TITO commendation too.

Aleksei-kan Volkov
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Savaer]

Condemn the region.

That would be bad, as Grand Central aren't responsible for the invasion - they were betrayed by Aegara - he caused them to lose 150+ nations.

Well then condemn the bastard anyways. I used to frequent the Rejected Realms, this just gets to me. Why's he want to be condemned anyways?

Because, quite simply, ever since the Nazi Europe condemnation, raiders everywhere have mocked the WASC's C&C system, often claiming the 'Mark of Shame' to mean they were doing something right. We mocked it when Macedon was condemned, at least at first, because we foresaw the Condemn being the WA's way of epically failing to alienate raiders for doing what we do best - raid. Attitudes have largely changed in several regions.

It's because of the 'Mark of Shame'='Badge of honour' concept some, such as myself, wanted to de-validate the WASC as a 'Here's a cookie for being a defender' system. Unibot brought up the TITO Commend, which I do not mistype, but that's the sort of thing we specifically did not want to see - the C&C system being a 'Here's a cookie' for the defenders and a 'Here's a bag of dogshit' for the raiders game. Thus far, only an ex-raider has seen a commend. Yet I recall many attempts to commend defenders, with one succeeding. (Been off and on WA-wise for a few months.) You guys could always prove me wrong on that and actually commend an active raider, but I doubt I'll live to see that happen.

Anyways, the point I wanted to make in regards to this: You guys already gave Aegara what he wanted when you lot started a big ol' argument on whether to condemn him or not, and you feed the fire by even considering giving one. IF he's seen this thread, he probably swelled with pride knowing he ruffled so many feathers and burned so many tails. Congratz. You let'im win.

I personally support neither condemn nor ignore, as at this point it's irrelevant. You already gave him the cookies he wanted (the argument) so you might as well give'im the badge for being that dastardly fellow. Just please leave the TITO commend repeal out of it, ok?

-Savaer

PS: AMOM, the 'time honoured tradition' referred to was neutrality.

[Falconias]

The Security Council is a ing joke. Honestly.

[Naivetry]

I don't want to bring in the TITO repeal. I think we kind of beat that whole issue to death, no?

OH NO!! Nai, you just have to mention the TITO repeal. This condemnation wouldn't be complete without it. That's like, the icing on the cake, the gin in the vermouth.

Oh, MSR... I really don't feel like it. But I could do it, just for you.

Believing that raider-defender politicking is an issue of intrinsic and abiding interest to all right-thinking nations,

Certain that a raider who attempts to repeal a defender Commendation must be a Very Bad Evil Bad Raider Bad Person,

Asserting that spelling mistakes in resolutions are not nearly as offensive as orange and blue in a region's WFE,

Claiming therefore that the repeal of TITO's Commendation was entirely unfair and Aegara ought to be ashamed of himself for proposing something that 55% of the active WA vote approved,

Hereby Condemns Aegara and hopes TITO is watching, because we still owe them $20 from the defender keg party last week.

Hey Savaer - in all seriousness, I'd be interested in your opinion on this thread/line of thought: viewtopic.php?p=1767729#p1767729

[Improving Wordiness]

I don't want to bring in the TITO repeal. I think we kind of beat that whole issue to death, no?

OH NO!! Nai, you just have to mention the TITO repeal. This condemnation wouldn't be complete without it. That's like, the icing on the cake, the gin in the vermouth.

Oh, MSR... I really don't feel like it. But I could do it, just for you.

Hereby Condemns Aegara and hopes TITO is watching, because we still owe them $20 from the defender keg party last week.

Wait.....there was a keg party?!

[Naivetry]

There was totally a keg party. Numero caught a couple of people trying to sneak in with stolen invitations... that might explain where yours went. Sedge organized, Ananke sent out the invites, Big Tex provided catering, and Falc showed up in the middle and crashed the party. But up until then it was pretty awesome.

I pretended to be significant for a good 5 hours.

<3 Falc. Don't kill me.

Anyway, in case anyone was confused, here's the actual proposal, with a new tag for the last line:

The World Assembly,

Noting the ejection of 156 WA member nations from Grand Central by its former Delegate, Aegara, on April 6, 2010,

Having determined that Aegara orchestrated this betrayal of his home region in order to seize the World Assembly Delegacy of The Rejected Realms from its long-serving Delegate, Kandarin,

Disturbed by the consequent drop in the quality of The Rejected Realms' barbecue,

Dismayed by Aegara's abuse of the trust placed in him as the former Delegate of Grand Central,

Recognizing this tactic as one employed on two other occasions, by Red Kagran of Taijitu and Emperor Matthuis of The North Pacific, within the past three years,

Suspecting that Aegara desires to be Condemned by the World Assembly, as demonstrated by a previously unsuccessful attempt to pass his own Condemnation in December 2009,

Disappointed, however, that Aegara has chosen to employ an unoriginal gimmick in his pursuit of short-term power and infamy,

Confident that a Condemnation criticizing Aegara's untrustworthiness, unoriginality, and uninspired barbecue will not be mistaken for a badge of honor,

Hoping that such a Condemnation will discourage other World Assembly Delegates from behaving in a similarly overdone and underhanded way with their endorsers,

Hereby Condemns Aegara, whether he likes it or not.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Honoured ambassador to Naivetry,

I must admit that whether to condemn the government of Aegara is a tough one. Last time we did it on Macedon they actually welcomed it and made the problem worse. The challenge to this draft is how can we use a condemnation to discourage the government from doing it again? And it seems the honoured ambassador has had a good attempt at it. Yeah, good start, but in my opinion I am still tentatively with the IGNORE cannon.

Maybe the draft should clearly say that this draft should hope to discourage the government of Aegara from doing it again?

[Kalibarr]

I'm pretty sure he won't be doing it again anyway, there is no way anyone would let him be delegate now they know what he might do, and there aren't even that many regions capable of raiding TRR in this way anyway.

[Naivetry]

Charlotte, this is something I can't do very well in nation RP style, so I'm just going to respond as a regional politician (Gameplay IC...), because it makes a difference whether we're talking about Aegara as an individual or pretending he's a government collective. I think the latter in this case would obscure the point I want to make.

First, the jury's still out on Macedon. I've heard that they dislike it in private, but either way I'm not inclined to trust what they say on their RMB where they don't have to deal with a critical crowd of players. Second, regardless of whether or not they welcomed it, I doubt that their Condemnation "made the problem worse". They themselves certainly haven't been more active than before, and I have yet to see anyone copying their tactics, beyond the use of orange and blue in the WFE (which I suspect is not what you were referring to). The proof is in the way it plays out in-game, and we haven't seen a revitalized Macedonian Empire in the wake of their Condemnation.

I also appreciate your point about discouraging Aegara from doing this again, but I think your suggestion of writing it in explicitly would be counterproductive. Saying "and don't do it again!" would only be an invitation for him to do it, just to up the ante and see if he could make people mad.

The point is that we're not as upset as we are... disappointed. We're disappointed to see him implode as a politician and do his best to take his old region with him. We're disappointed by his abuse of the trust placed in him by the 156 nations who thought they were endorsing their region's delegate, not signing up to be packed off to TRR where he could take advantage of their ignorance to seize power. We're disappointed that he couldn't think of anything better to do to get the world's attention.

In addition to Kali's point, which would hold true for any region with a memory for Gameplay history, the passage of a Condemnation would warn new-minted nations in the future not to trust his intentions, and not to endorse him unless they're looking for a trip to TRR, thus making it less likely that he would be able to pull this off again, even if he wanted to. And if he did somehow manage to do it again - well, who would really care? The response here has been almost overwhelmingly blasé already - can you imagine the scorn he would receive for trying it again? We've already shown that he can't hold it for more than an update, though he's doing his best to get the seat back (cause after all, getting knocked out that quickly must be embarrassing).

As for the player, who can of course switch puppets to get around this... well, what good is your little blotch of infamy if you can't even claim it? He'll never be able to work in NS under the same name or admit who he is without immediately being associated with a copycat performance of a self-destructive trick. If that's the name he wants to make for himself, then he's got it already. The role of a Condemnation is just to make sure it sticks.

[Krioval]

Fine. I have become convinced that this merits attention from "The Security Council". Ratings will not improve themselves, after all. What follows is a modest attempt to take into account the varied viewpoints that have been expressed thus far.

The Security Council,

BEING an organization of the purest justice and grace,

INSPIRED by the debate involving A Mean Old Man, Sedgistan, WWII History Geeks, Unibotian WA Mission, Unibot, Todd McCloud, Charlotte Ryberg, Bird the Word, Krioval, Sicopaths, Mehayn, Doitzel, Station Man, Lowell Leber, Afforess, Asceaus, Poree, Whamabama, Mong Kai, Mousebumples, Chorridonia, Kandarin, Naivetry, The Black Plains, Kalibarr, Mad Sheep Railgun, Savaer, Falconias, Improving Wordiness, and Free and Open States

NOTING that Aegara overtook Kandarin as delegate for The Rejected Realms on April 6th, 2010,

FURTHER NOTING that said nation held this position for approximately twelve (12) hours,

DEPLORING the unmitigated calamity that resulted when The Rejected Realms was under Aegara's control for such a prolonged period of time,

DISCOVERING the ejection of one hundred fifty-six (156) natives (!) from Grand Central by Aegara to put this nefarious scheme in motion,

INFURIATED that some of these nations may be unable to return to their home region, despite having been given the regional password,

RAMPANTLY SPECULATING that Aegara had to be acting completely alone and on impulse, or otherwise completely alone and with premeditation,

ALSO VAGUELY UPSET about Aegara's “Repeal 'Commend 10000 Islands'”, as the repealed resolution represented the best of the Security Council,

WANTING to pin blame solidly on Aegara for these travesties, but being unable to do so because this is a preambulatory clause,

CONDEMNS Aegara because we all know he doesn't want any additional attention.

The actual proposal comes with very nice miniature flags next to the nation names for a little splash of color. I think it adds something. Please let your regional delegate know that we will be taking approvals in a first-come, first-served manner. No pushing, please.

Aleksei-kan Volkov
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

Fine. I have become convinced that this merits attention from "The Security Council". Ratings will not improve themselves, after all. What follows is a modest attempt to take into account the varied viewpoints that have been expressed thus far.

The Security Council,

BEING an organization of the purest justice and grace,

INSPIRED by the debate involving A Mean Old Man, Sedgistan, WWII History Geeks, Unibotian WA Mission, Unibot, Todd McCloud, Charlotte Ryberg, Bird the Word, Krioval, Sicopaths, Mehayn, Doitzel, Station Man, Lowell Leber, Afforess, Asceaus, Poree, Whamabama, Mong Kai, Mousebumples, Chorridonia, Kandarin, Naivetry, The Black Plains, Kalibarr, Mad Sheep Railgun, Savaer, Falconias, Improving Wordiness, and Free and Open States

NOTING that Aegara overtook Kandarin as delegate for The Rejected Realms on April 6th, 2010,

FURTHER NOTING that said nation held this position for approximately twelve (12) hours,

DEPLORING the unmitigated calamity that resulted when The Rejected Realms was under Aegara's control for such a prolonged period of time,

DISCOVERING the ejection of one hundred fifty-six (156) natives (!) from Grand Central by Aegara to put this nefarious scheme in motion,

INFURIATED that some of these nations may be unable to return to their home region, despite having been given the regional password,

RAMPANTLY SPECULATING that Aegara had to be acting completely alone and on impulse, or otherwise completely alone and with premeditation,

ALSO VAGUELY UPSET about Aegara's “Repeal 'Commend 10000 Islands'”, as the repealed resolution represented the best of the Security Council,

WANTING to pin blame solidly on Aegara for these travesties, but being unable to do so because this is a preambulatory clause,

CONDEMNS Aegara because we all know he doesn't want any additional attention.

The actual proposal comes with very nice miniature flags next to the nation names for a little splash of color. I think it adds something. Please let your regional delegate know that we will be taking approvals in a first-come, first-served manner. No pushing, please.

Aleksei-kan Volkov
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

A work of sheer brilliance. I especially like all the little flags in the submitted version. This is the only "Condemn Aegara™ proposal that I will be supporting.

[Krioval]

A work of sheer brilliance. I especially like all the little flags in the submitted version. This is the only "Condemn Aegara™ proposal that I will be supporting.

Thank you. I spent ten whole minutes making sure that everything was perfect. Not quite the twelve hours that Aegara controlled TRR with an iron fist, but I make do. I also added a section about the TITO repeal because I knew how important that was for you.

Aleksei-kan Volkov
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Naivetry]

I like how you put Free and Open States there at the end, so as not to interrupt the solid block of green and graphics consuming the upper third of the text... but I fear for the aesthetic future of your proposal when some of these nations start to CTE. Clearly you should withdraw this version and submit a new one reordering the names of the nations based on their relative likelihood of ceasing to exist.

[Kanaia]

I agree with AMOM, ignore him, maybe he'll go away.

[Naivetry]

I agree with AMOM, ignore him, maybe he'll go away.

But that's boring.

[Twigica]

Condemn the region.

That would be bad, as Grand Central aren't responsible for the invasion - they were betrayed by Aegara - he caused them to lose 150+ nations.

Unless they planned it beforehand. Though I tend to doubt that. Word would have leaked.

So yes, that's another reason not to condemn Grand Central.

Actually, a lot of the ones he sent there will probably go home, which means his coup will most likely fail in the end anyway.

Nope. Having been in the region at the time, I can assure you Grand Central had nothing to do with this.

[Philimbesi]

Desmond blinked a few times, "I have to admit I have no idea what any of you are talking about, and I'm not sure how to proceed here..." All of a sudden the doors to the SC chamber swung open and Nigel came in, "Sorry old chap, forgot to leave this. " He produced a sliding contraption, and then left.

Desmond took a second to orient himself with the operation of the equipment and then announced in a confident voice. "The WeCouldCareLessAboutC&C's Invader/Defender/Character/Player/Nation Edition 2.0 Now-with-live-scoring _{patent pending} has revealed a score of... reveal score... oh sorry . "

Mentions regions that remind me of salad dressing (-50) -50
No mention of nazi’s (+50) 0
No mention of nazi zombies (-25) -25
No mention of penguins (-25) -50
No mention of penguin zombies (-25) -75
Use of the words Rampantly Speculating (+10) -65
Cunning use of flags (+20) -45
Slight(or not so slight) Diss of the Commending the AO (-50) -95

"Therefore the overall score of this resolution is -95 and being below zero we must announce we are opposed to it."

[Oh my Days]

Is this really so bad? Raiding is what makes the game interesting, because it's dramatic, and no-one objected when Durk ejected a lot more people from the North Pacific. The Rejected Realms will be fine, if anything it will only be helped by this, with extra votes in the WA whilst it is defended, and some WAs may stay there. Grand Central will be fine, every player with any level of interest will return (recruiting them is seriously low rent, guys), and the few who leave would likely not have stayed long anyway.

This is better than when Durk ejected all those people, because it's shocking. Durk had nothing to lose, and it was his way of going out with a bang. Aegara had everything to lose, and also negatively affected a lot fewer people, 156 nations, many of them experienced, instead of 1000+ (2000+?) nations, many of whom would have been new, and left dazed and confused. It's amazing how much less raiders can push the boundaries of what is acceptable than others in this game can.

[A mean old man]

Oh my God...

Well, I'm at the top of the list, which looks purty!

This reminds me of my draft of "Liberate TSC Forums" with the massive and completely unnecessary list of people...

And only a few here will know what I'm talking about with that, as I never put it up around here.

Krioval, it's incredibly hilarious, but you do understand I'm going to have to try my best to euthanize it if it reaches quorum, right?

[Krioval]

Does this mean that you won't be approving it?