New script rules for sending TGs

[[violet]]

Hi all,

The new Telegram system has provided a new window into how some players are sending TGs, and BOY! There are some tools out there that are sending a lot of TGs. In fact it has become clear that we are going to need to tweak our rules again.

For your reference:

• Current Script Rules
• Discussion that led to these rules

We are shortly moving to a situation where:

1. Manual recruiters will keep doing what they're doing
2. Scripts will be able to send TGs (both recruitment and non-recruitment) via the NationStates API, but at a much slower rate
3. Anyone will be able to use telegram stamps to send Mass TGs

This thread concerns the division between #1 and #2. The reason for the division is we think that a region that is prepared to put in the time and work to manually send recruitment TGs should be able to do so. And, furthermore, they should be able to compete on roughly equal footing with a region that has the skills to write a script.

If there's no division, and scripts can send TGs as fast (or faster) than manual recruiters, then we have a situation where regions with scripts dominate, and scripts become required for recruiting, and we don't want this. You shouldn't need third-party add-ons to compete.

So the division is important. However, what I'm seeing are tools that are NOT considered scripts according to our Script Rules, but are, for all practical purposes, highly automated.

An example: A recruiter runs a tool. The tool displays a page that is blank except for a button that says "Click!". The recruiter clicks the button. The tool fetches a list of new nations from the NationStates API, targets one of them, pastes pre-prepared text into a telegram box, and sends the telegram. The recruiter never visits the NS site and doesn't even know who he/she is telegramming. He/she just sits there hitting "Click!" over and over, while the tool keeps track of who it has TGed and figures out who to TG next.

Currently, this tool isn't limited by our Script Rules, because it is only transmitting one action per click.

This is a problem because a tool like this is highly removed from what we'd consider "manual recruiting." It's not really competing on fair footing with genuine manual recruiters.

Before changing the rules, though, I want input from recruiters & scripters, because I'd like to find a definition that doesn't unduly restrict people from doing clever things. There are lots of times that people come up with something we didn't anticipate, and extend the game in smart ways, and we don't want to stop that.

The key part of the current rule is:

It is illegal to use a tool to automatically cause something in the gameworld to change, other than your own nation.

Right now, I'm thinking of explicitly limiting tools that "cause something in the gameworld to change, other than your own nation" to those that modify the appearance of the page. So tools that add buttons to an NS page when you load it are fine, but tools that send commands remotely without ever loading an NS page are not.

And just to be clear:

• Information-gathering scripts of all kinds are fine. The current Script Rules ask them to send no more than 10 requests per minute if they scrape HTML and 100 requests per minute if they use the API. No problems here.
• Scripts that answer issues for your own nation are still fine. They aren't at issue here because the rule is about scripts that cause something "other than your own nation" to change.
• The new API for sending Telegrams (both recruitment and non-recruitment) will be operational very soon. So we aren't talking about banning scripts outright, only about making sure that they play by the Script Rules, not by the Manual Recruiter rules. In a practical sense, that means making scripts abide by tougher rate limits.

[Cerian Quilor]

Having used a manual tool like that time (several differant tools, actually) and having manually recruitered in the most basic way, I can tell you that the manual tool is only like 15% easier than the basic kind of manual recruitment, at most.

[Unibot III]

Well, non-recruitment communication among interregional organizations like the UDL is done through telegram -- the script we used was slow, I think it was three hours to contact people, but that was better than doing it manually. If the process was slower, I would be worried it wouldn't leave enough time for us to communicate with everyone in the organization for emergencies (which are actually the norm) -- we'd probably have to contact people manually on a regular basis or pay for stamps.

[Eldarion Telcontar]

The same rules as before, those who can script also shouldn't be overcast by those who put time in. Time, skill and money should all be weighed the same. To compensate the rules should be:

Manual - Those who have the time to recruit manually should be able to send 1 telegram every 10 seconds and use personal %NATION% codes.

Script - Those who have the skill to script should be able to send 1 telegram every 20-30 seconds.

Mass TGs - Those who has the cash money to use for [recruitment] should not be instantaneous. They should be split up by (x) number of seconds.

If we're allowing instant Mass TGs and solid Manual rules, those with the ability to script should have better options.

[[violet]]

Manual - Those who have the time to recruit manually should be able to send 1 telegram every 10 seconds and use personal %NATION% codes.

Script - Those who have the skill to script should be able to send 1 telegram every 20-30 seconds.

This is a different discussion, though.

The issue here is that highly script-ish tools are currently deemed "manual." It doesn't matter what the different rules are for manual recruiting vs scripts if the scripts are allowed to play by the manual rules.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Overall, I think it's a bad idea to try and write a universal rule, here. After all, you're really concerned about recruiting, which requires sending a telegram. So whatever rule comes out of this should only apply to that scenario.

Changing the appearance of NationStates is a highly onerous activity, particularly because it was not designed by professional web developers. None of the themes are friendly to being edited by browser user-scripts. That's the reason I've long avoided using this method. I prefer to create the tool on my own website, where I have full control over the design and implementation.

TL;DR: I don't think it's fair or wise to ban all third-party tools from sending commands to NationStates, when you really just want to stop automatic-in-all-but-name recruiting tools.

[Unibot III]

[violet], I don't understand why you need a rule that applies universally to both non-recruitment and recruitment -- generally speaking people are only concerned about the advantages posed with scripting in recruitment, not general communication, because there isn't competition involved in general communication, only recruitment.

In other words, I think for the purposes of recruitment there should be stricter rate limits, but I don't see why we need to bump the limit for non-recruiters.

[Cerian Quilor]

The rate limits are already hell as it is.

[Sichuan Pepper]

[violet], I don't understand why you need a rule that applies universally to both non-recruitment and recruitment -- generally speaking people are only concerned about the advantages posed with scripting in recruitment, not general communication, because there isn't competition involved in general communication, only recruitment.

In other words, I think for the purposes of recruitment there should be stricter rate limits, but I don't see why we need to bump the limit for non-recruiters.

I would be concerned that regions will use this as a work around to avoid the new script rules. Claiming to be sending out newsletters or advertising an event.. question airs.....unfortunately I can think of a myriad of ways to use a script without strictly recruiting but still getting the benefit.

[Unibot III]

Claiming to be sending out newsletters or advertising an event.. question airs.....

First -- Is that really an awful situation? People being constructive and in the process, drawing people to join their institutions? Seems to me like the game would be better off if we did that more often. We could use some more newsletters, better advertised events and even questionnaires. Currently, our newsletters largely are only read by the people who KNOW the news in them before they read it... if anything the usual readers are the people MAKING the news -- by limiting newsletters to those who join our forums, we kind of ignore the purpose of distributing news. It's difficult, really difficult to advertise for interregional events or gather empirical opinion polls on anything in NationStates -- you can lose a nation trying to promote anything through telegram. I'm glad the NS World Fair went off without a hitch, but it wasn't easy promoting an event like that to get over a hundred people at a time in NationStates. I contacted about 300 different Zetaboards/Invisionfree/Proboards forums -- took loads of time to make forum accounts and I still only skimmed the surface of NSers by approaching regional forums.

Second -- We're not talking about whether they can do it or not, we're simply talking about how fast they can do it. If someone is sending out newsletters or advertisements for events.. it's a trade-off for competitive advantage. Although, they may be able to send their letters out the fastest, they're losing the greatest advantage of all: the ability to outright say "join my region" and a big grey button that says "CLICK TO JOIN _______".

[Sichuan Pepper]

@ Unibot
You are talking about using a script to do that though and want it not bound by the same rules. It also sidesteps the nations opt out of recruit telegrams.
The sort of thing you are talking about does not seem under a time constraint for distribution. I am also not sure of spam rules and I think that might need to be clarified.

@ Violet

Another advantage I can see if scripts are used is they are not bound in the same way as a human. They can run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A human cannot do that. Any thoughts on limiting how long a script can run for each day?

[Cerian Quilor]

This is not about autoscripts as a tool atm pepper, but about aids to recruitment that are still manual.

[Eldarion Telcontar]

My opinion would be keeping the rules of the last time, with mass tgs scripts will be evened out.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Another advantage I can see if scripts are used is they are not bound in the same way as a human. They can run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A human cannot do that. Any thoughts on limiting how long a script can run for each day?

This is not about autoscripts as a tool atm pepper, but about aids to recruitment that are still manual.

Yeah, we've heard this point made hundreds of times. We should stick to the topic at hand: figuring out what to do with "semi-automated" tools.

To expand on my last post, I think that if a tool offers the same result as an automated script, then it should fall under the same regulations. Automated scripts aren't restricted just by the virtue of being automated. The reason these scripts are restricted is because of their outcomes. So if a recruiting tool that isn't nominally automated has the same outcome, there's little reason why it should be treated differently from automated scripts.

All of that being limited to recruiting, that is.

[Mallorea and Riva]

All of that being limited to recruiting, that is.

Why?

[Cerberion]

I think perhaps the simplist solution for semi-automatic is to assess the TG speeds performed by manual recruitment efforts and then set that as a hard limit in the code.

if a nation recruiting manually can send one TG every 5 seconds, then the spam guard should be set so that nothing can send faster than that rate.

I could certainly recommend some nations to look at to get that average. :P

[Cerian Quilor]

Another advantage I can see if scripts are used is they are not bound in the same way as a human. They can run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A human cannot do that. Any thoughts on limiting how long a script can run for each day?

This is not about autoscripts as a tool atm pepper, but about aids to recruitment that are still manual.

Yeah, we've heard this point made hundreds of times. We should stick to the topic at hand: figuring out what to do with "semi-automated" tools.

To expand on my last post, I think that if a tool offers the same result as an automated script, then it should fall under the same regulations. Automated scripts aren't restricted just by the virtue of being automated. The reason these scripts are restricted is because of their outcomes. So if a recruiting tool that isn't nominally automated has the same outcome, there's little reason why it should be treated differently from automated scripts.

All of that being limited to recruiting, that is.

Manual tools do NOT accomplish the same result as an automatic script. An autoscript requires no human input once it is started, and a manual tool requires human input to do anything.

[Ananke II]

It's also worth considering that a fully automated tool can send telegrams 24/7. With a manual tool no matter how dedicated your recruiters are you'll have times of day when recruiting slows down. E.i. sometimes I'll telegram nations which were founded 6-7 hours ago, because noone from my region had time to recruit during those hours.

[Evil Lord Sauron]

It's also worth considering that a fully automated tool can send telegrams 24/7. With a manual tool no matter how dedicated your recruiters are you'll have times of day when recruiting slows down. E.i. sometimes I'll telegram nations which were founded 6-7 hours ago, because noone from my region had time to recruit during those hours.

And that's not to mention the nations that you already missed out on in that time. Whereas a scripter will just by-pass that.

As for manually recruiting, and the original topic, you should be making manual recruiting as easy as possible so maybe implementing that tool but build it into Nationstates (though with stamps and the new TG system that's highly unlikely) and probably unlikely to be a popular one, since most people will use Auto-recruiters.

[Laevendell]

The key part of the current rule is:

It is illegal to use a tool to automatically cause something in the gameworld to change, other than your own nation.

Right now, I'm thinking of explicitly limiting tools that "cause something in the gameworld to change, other than your own nation" to those that modify the appearance of the page. So tools that add buttons to an NS page when you load it are fine, but tools that send commands remotely without ever loading an NS page are not.

Does this only concern telegrams or will e.g. my Android app not be allowed to post RMB messages to your own region's RMB by sending a POST to the site (in response to writing a message and clicking a button in the app)? Or are RMB posts included in things that affect your own nation?

[Glen-Rhodes]

All of that being limited to recruiting, that is.

Why?

Because there's no real problem with scripts not involved in recruiting sending commands to NationStates.

Manual tools do NOT accomplish the same result as an automatic script. An autoscript requires no human input once it is started, and a manual tool requires human input to do anything.

An answer to a question I never asked.

I'm saying that if a "semi-automatic" or nominally "manual" tool has the same result as an automated script, then they should be regulated just like automated scripts. The reason automatic recruiting is not allowed is because there's presumably too much spam created, because things move really fast. If a semi-automatic tool can achieve that same result, why shouldn't it be regulated like the fully automatic one? Why does it matter how much human input is required? Automatic scripts aren't banned because they don't require human input. If that's what people think, then they should probably go back and look at the debates last year. They're banned because of the amount of output.

e: how did that facepalm get there? :|

[General Halcones]

I completely agree violet. Those who put the effort and time into manual recruitment should be rewarded for it, and not out-competed by those who put very little time in.

The other thing is, a region that recruits manually is much more likely to have the time and activity to integrate new nations, as oppose to a region that is really very inactive with leaders that have very little time. It's best not to be misguiding new nations into such regions - it's beneficial to the game that they join those regions that are putting the work in.

The only problem is, manual recruitment is horrifically boring, and repetitious activities are not fun at all, so may drive people away from the game. Plus, there's little point in humans doing repetitious activities - that's what machines are made for.

[Sedgistan]

I completely agree violet. Those who put the effort and time into manual recruitment should be rewarded for it, and not out-competed by those who put very little time in.

The other thing is, a region that recruits manually is much more likely to have the time and activity to integrate new nations, as oppose to a region that is really very inactive with leaders that have very little time. It's best not to be misguiding new nations into such regions - it's beneficial to the game that they join those regions that are putting the work in.

Good thing we caught the member of your region who'd used an illegal script to send out some 30,000 recruiting telegrams since the new TG system was launched.

[Eldarion Telcontar]

Good thing we caught the member of your region who'd used an illegal script to send out some 30,000 recruiting telegrams since the new TG system was launched.

I love when Mods pitch in to help the discussion at hand * *

Anyways, if someone has the skill to script out an Auto-TGer they shouldn't be penalized for it. Yes, Manual recruiters should still have somewhat of an advantage, but not an enormous one. Not many people have addressed the fact that Mass TGs are instant and there are 120,000 nations in the world and I can easily see the everyone in NS (together) able to scrap together $120, so I think we'll see a lot of Mass TGs hitting a lot of Nations quite quickly. If we're allowing Mass TGs then Scripts really shouldn't be that penalized. I would have a different view if it was just Manual and Scripts, but throwing mass tgs in there mixes everything up.

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

Scripts should be held to the same rate limits as stamps.