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Is There a God?

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Xathranaar
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Postby Xathranaar » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:43 pm

Multiflow wrote:I want to jump in the middle, but I am afraid of getting burned by BOTH sides. I have glanced through the thread, but as it is now over 400 pages ... sorry if I missed someone already talking about this.

The biggest problem I usually see in these (*cough*) discussions, is before you begin you should define what you talking about. Everyone assumes that we all agree on what a term means. We get some partial definitions as it goes along and people try to assert a point of view. I am not here at this point to disagree.

My point right now would be, 'What is a god?'

As the science based atheists have pointed out fairly well so far, there does not seem to be a personality to the universe. Because if you look at what Abrahamic religions try to describe as God, it is the universe. We are made of it, it surrounds us, it is everything. But it has no personality.

But to argue for the theists, is a cell in the body aware of our personality? And do you actively care about every cell in your body?

I guess I want to ask, besides personal satisfaction, why does it matter? Do you need a god for moral justification? Not really as most philosophers, atheists, and various other people can point out. Look at the world around you, ask yourself, why do I think this is right, or wrong. If as you age the only answer you have is because some one says so, see if you can find more to support it. If you cannot, you may find that there may be something else going on.

No. They really don't. I've read their books, god is only ever described as separate from, and sovereign over physical reality. Pantheism has no solid scriptural basis, and is a modern addition to monotheism. If you had argued Hinduism you might have had a point.

Cells in our body are not aware of anything in any meaningful sense.

It matters because truth is justified unto itself.

This last part is more or less the atheist proposition.
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Xathranaar
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Postby Xathranaar » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:44 pm

Akema wrote:by Evraim » TueDec 04,20127:25 pm

Akema wrote: Atheist turning buddhist

Theistic Buddhism or Atheistic Buddhism

Atheistic

Big boat, or little boat?
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The Multiversal Species Alliance
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Postby The Multiversal Species Alliance » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:55 pm

Are there deities?
Personally, I believe in the Dependent Deity Theory, which is the theory that any and all possible deities exist, however they are all indifferent until one worships them. So I believe in all possible deities, however I worship Celestia and Luna, I stopped worshiping the Abrahamic God Yaweh because I see him as a patriarchal, violent, discriminatory prick.
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Tlaceceyaya
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:02 pm

The Multiversal Species Alliance wrote:Are there deities?
Personally, I believe in the Dependent Deity Theory, which is the theory that any and all possible deities exist, however they are all indifferent until one worships them. So I believe in all possible deities, however I worship Celestia and Luna, I stopped worshiping the Abrahamic God Yaweh because I see him as a patriarchal, violent, discriminatory prick.

1: It's not a theory.
2: Then not all possible deities exist, because ones like Yahweh hate to be indifferent, and instead crave blood. And stuff.
3: You... worship fictional pony/unicorn/pegasi.
4: Prove everything in that post.
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Alageria
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Postby Alageria » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:05 pm

I want to believe in a god, I trully do. But there is no factual evidence you can look at and say "Yep, that proves there's a god". There is little evidence that says there's a god. I know that I am going to get the Bible thrown at me for say this, but it's pretty much true. I was raised in an EXTREMELY christian family, my family goes so as to say that if your not a christian, your stupid. I personally believe it is all about perspective, no one can force you to believe in God, it is about what you feel in your heart. If you believe there is a god, then good for you, if you don't, still good for you.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:56 am

Salamanstrom wrote:There are many problems with this theory. And the theory itself still does not answer many important questions - Such as where did all the matter in the universe come from?


Both myself and Sociobiology have explained this. It formed from the positive half of the positive-negative energy produced at the start.

If all the matter in the universe was compressed into a small dot, what caused this to happen? Where did gravity come from that held it together?


Nowhere. It quite clearly didn't hold together.

If this "dot" spun rapidly until it exploded., then where did the energy come from to start the spinning?


Hmm, if we've got an infinitely hot, infinitely dense amount of energy, I wonder where we could find some energy?

Also, in an environment without friction you would have this spinning dot going so fast it would then explode. If this happened, then all of the particles and matter being expelled from this "spinning dot" would all have to spin in the same direction as the dot they exploded from.


This is bullshit. It was an expansion, not an explosion. Additionally, momentum-exchange happens.

This is a known law of science, which those who believe in Evolution cannot do away with. It is known as the Conservation of angular momentum.


And it doesn't say what the blogger you plagiarised this from thinks it says.

This matter which is said to have created the planets would all need to spin in the same direction as the object it came from.


Nope. It requires the net momentum to be conserved over the entire system.

So therefore, all of the planets should be spinning in the same direction.


Nope. So the net angular momentum of the universe should be constant.

However two of them are not. Venus and Uranus spin backwards.


Having undergone momentum exchanges with other bodies, causing those other bodies to spin faster.

Some planets even have moons that not only spin backwards, but travel backward around their planets.


Having undergone momentum exchanges with other bodies, causing those other bodies to spin faster.

The Big Bang theory also ignores the First law of Thermodynamics, which says:
"matter cannot be created or destroyed"


No it fucking doesn't. The first law of thermodynamics states that the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work done by the system on its surroundings. The creation and destruction of matter (from/into energy) has been observed countless times.

Those who believe in the Big Bang theory are also either unaware of, or ignore the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" which says:
"Everything tends towards disorder"


No it doesn't. It states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases. A single point containing everything is the single lowest entropy state possible, and the current system is of far higher entropy than that.

So rather than the chaos (big bang)


Perfectly ordered.

becoming ordered (our universe)


Disordered.

just the opposite would be true.. And it is.


Bullshit.

Our complex universe is wearing down, and becoming more chaotic...


True. It has been ever since the big bang.

Paul was aware of this when he wrote his letter to the Hebrews:
Everything ".. waxes old like a garment" (quoted in both Psalm 102:25-27, and also Hebrews 1:10-12).


No he fucking wasn't. He was stating the bloody obvious.

"This verse "anticipates the famous second law of thermodynamics, or law of entropy, indicating that everything in the physical universe is growing old and wearing out. God created everything in the beginning, winding it up like a great clock, so to speak. Because of sin and the curse, however, it has been running down and "perishing" ever since. Jesus also said: "Heaven and earth shall pass away" (literally, "are passing away") (Matthew 24:35)" - Waxing Old, like a Garment by Henry Morris, Ph.D.


No it fucking doesn't. It demonstrates that Paul had a pair of fucking eyes and could see that shit changes over time.

Things wear down. Nothing gets better by itself.


Some things do, for a given definition of "better".

If I told you that thousands of pieces of timber were set in motion by a tornado in a lumberyard and this ultimately resulted in the amazing design and complexity of the house you live in, you would think this was absurd to say the very least.


Yes. If you said, however, that well understood, universally applicable, non-random physical processes created a chaotic structure, I would say "well, yes, we've known this for ages".

Yet in essence this is what the Big Bang theory teaches.


No it isn't.

Now I know that anyone with kids might say that a tornado ripped through their room - but the tornado did not create their room. It only created the mess that is throughout the room. Will the mess ever get cleaned up? Yes, but it will not cleaned up by itself.


The big bang was not a tornado.

Even if millions of years of tornados did somehow randomly land in a complex pattern thus assembling your room, this would still not explain where the trees came from that were made into the lumber.


True. Tornadoes do not reach adequate temperatures to do that.

It would not explain who planted, or cut the trees, or even how the trees grew.


Energy is not a tree.

You see, such theories do not give an absolute answer of truth.


Nothing outside of mathematics does. This is as close as we can get within the bounds of the real world, however.

They only serve to cause people to become distracted and lose sight of the larger picture of the Creator and who God is. Satan is a master of deception and distraction. He wants you to lose sight of Christ, and focus on impossible things.


No, they serve to educate people and humanity at large, increase our knowledge of the universe and lead to vast technological developments. Get back to me when you can pray the internet into existence.

Yeah, so no one can complain I didn't cite my sources or something.


Yes we can. Because you didn't. This is a scientific discussion, and if it isn't peer reviewed, it isn't worth jack.

Oh, and from a science website.

The top scientific theory regarding the beginning of the universe is the Big Bang, a term first used by Fred Hoyle in 1950. In this theory, the universe began 13.7 billion years ago. It started as a single point, smaller than an atomic nucleus, with an infinitely high temperature and an infinite density.


That's a reasonably close explanation for laymen, yes.

a single point...


And that point inflated, rather than exploding.

fine, but what does that have to do with anything. The big bang theory is still going with a known fact of the universe


You have managed to warp grammar to the point that this sentence is accidentally correct.

thats not the point, the point is it still breaks several universal laws


Prove it. Mathematically. Come on, you have two set of formal statements: one (call it A) defining the big bang theory, and one (call it B) defining these "universal laws". Show, rigorously, that a contradiction exists between a statement in A and a statement in B. Do it without copying or pasting anything.

no, like angular momentum. If the big bang (what? point, blob, cloud) thing was spinning when it exploded, than everything should be spinning in the same direction, which they are not.


Nope. For example, consider the following angular momentum exchange between two items A and B, both initially spinning with angular momentum M:

A + B -> A + B
M + M -> -M + 3M.

Angular momentum is conserved throughout, and A has reversed its direction of spin.

Plus, matter should be evenly distributed throughout the universe, which it is not.


On what basis do you claim this? And on a large scale, it pretty much is.

As far as my knowledge, it kinda wasn't spinning.


Actually, there is a hypothesis that has gathered a reasonable amount of evidence that it was spinning, but carry on.

if this was true than all the planets would still be turning the same direction


No.

oh, and to the other guy

according to the laws of psychics that matter should have been evenly distributed throughout space as their is not yet any resistance to slow it down.


On the contrary, there IS resistance now. There has been for several billion years.

yeah, if everything was spinning the same speed, why would gravity reverse some of them but not all


It wasn't all spinning at the same speed. That would be absurd.

because everything is spinning.


And? Why can't you have a total net spin of zero?

Plus, if it wasnt spinning, it would prove the big bang wrong.


No it wouldn't.

Angular momentum states that is something is spinning, and something comes from it, it has to be spinning the same direction. THIS IS A FACT.[/quote]

No, it isn't. It's something that you just pulled out of your arse. The total net angular momentum of a closed system in its entirety must be conserved.

Venus, uranus, and neptune are all rotating backwards. And several moons in our solar system is orbiting their planets backwards. And this is in our solar system only.


And? They underwent momentum exchanges with other objects.

Plus, what about this. The "Second Law of Thermodynamics" states that everything tend to chaos.


The universe is currently far more chaotic than the early universe.

Saying that something exploded or even rapidly expanded and got better doesn't work.


The latter does.

Plus than the earth was a flaming ball for a while, than it started getting better.


The earth is not a closed system. Whilst this was occurring, the sun (with which the earth interacts), ejected a vast amount of matter/energy, thus providing a vast increase in entropy to offset the very minor decreases on earth. Also, that isn't what entropy is.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE DUE TO THE SECOND LAW.


No it isn't.

It is a fact and you can't get around it. At very least this proves that evolution is wrong.


No, it demonstrates that you don't know what the second law of thermodynamics is.

perhaps not at the same speed, but uranus, pluto, neptune, and several moons are going backwards.


And? Momentum exchanges happen.

i use proven scientific facts.


Look up the definitions of the words "proven", "scientific" and "facts", and demonstrate where you've used even one of the three.

and you answer that.
im sorry, but you atheists are very content at taking the big bang THEORY and beating scientific FACTS with it until we think were wrong.


You should also look up the definition of the words "theory" and "scientific fact".

than where did the quantum fluctuations come from


Spontaneous generation. This is where it gets somewhat more difficult to explain.

I do not see how the Universe could expand from nothingness into everything we see here.


Might I suggest doing a physics degree? It would clear this up nicely.

Something had to have set off the Big Bang,


Not so.

something had to of created that ball of mass.


No mass. Just energy.

Anti-matter is matter that is oppositely charged. Energy and waves are properties of matter. Anyways, I would agree that it should be revised as 'everything that exists is a form of matter'.


I'd argue that matter is a property of energy, but it's largely academic to the discussion, so go on.

many atheist heretics have bombarded me with blasphemes about the existence of a god. let us religious people believe in our faith and when we all die yo will rot and we will prosper in heaven, only time will tell but really no prejudice just live on with diversity and if all else fails BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!


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Salamanstrom
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Postby Salamanstrom » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:15 pm

you cannot use math to prove reality. If you did, alot of stuff would be really messed up.
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Tsuntion
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Postby Tsuntion » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:16 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:you cannot use math to prove reality. If you did, alot of stuff would be really messed up.


What would be?
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:28 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:you cannot use math to prove reality. If you did, alot of stuff would be really messed up.

Such as?

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Salamanstrom
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Postby Salamanstrom » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:36 pm

the old theory. You can't go through an infinite amount of places in a finite amount of time.
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:36 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:the old theory. You can't go through an infinite amount of places in a finite amount of time.

You mean these?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_quantum_theory

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The Kingdom Of Griffins with Swords
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Postby The Kingdom Of Griffins with Swords » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:37 pm

yes......God and his son Jesus.
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Tsuntion
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Postby Tsuntion » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:42 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:the old theory. You can't go through an infinite amount of places in a finite amount of time.


Please explain why being able to prove reality using math would mess this up. I see it as the opposite since many theories depend on math; some physics is prettymuch just an application of it.
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Salamanstrom
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Postby Salamanstrom » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:48 pm

because math is unreliable. I can easily say that theory proves that movement is impossible
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Caecuser
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Postby Caecuser » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:49 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:because math is unreliable. I can easily say that theory proves that movement is impossible


Are you kidding? Maths is the only absolute that we know of.

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Postby Great Nepal » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:50 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:because math is unreliable.

How is it unreliable?

Salamanstrom wrote:I can easily say that theory proves that movement is impossible

Go ahead do that.
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:50 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:because math is unreliable. I can easily say that theory proves that movement is impossible

How does what theory prove movement is impossible?
Last edited by Divair on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tsuntion
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Postby Tsuntion » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:50 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:because math is unreliable.


Math is the most reliable thing there is.

I can easily say that theory proves that movement is impossible


(a) What theory? Lose context? Me? Never.
(b) Okay, do so.
Last edited by Tsuntion on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Salamanstrom
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Postby Salamanstrom » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:52 pm

math is reliable since its connection with reality changes over time. you can't use math to prove something now and just say that is how it has been forever.
If you turn your weapons into plows, you will plow for those who did not.

There's a grief that can't be spoken, There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables, Now my friends are dead and gone.
Here they talked of revolution, Here it was they lit the flame.
Here they sang about `tomorrow', And tomorrow never came.

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Divair
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Postby Divair » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:52 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:math is reliable since its connection with reality changes over time. you can't use math to prove something now and just say that is how it has been forever.

You keep making one sentence claims, yet you provide no proof.

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Multiflow
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Postby Multiflow » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:53 pm

Caecuser wrote:
Salamanstrom wrote:because math is unreliable. I can easily say that theory proves that movement is impossible


Are you kidding? Maths is the only absolute that we know of.

*ahem* umm ... actually though the process of math is *ahem* absolute, it is relative to what the numbers stand for >,>
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Tsuntion
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Postby Tsuntion » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:57 pm

Salamanstrom wrote:math is reliable
Salamanstrom wrote:math is unreliable


I'll assume the former is a typo on your part, though it makes more sense when taken as three words.

Salamanstrom wrote:math is reliable since its connection with reality changes over time. you can't use math to prove something now and just say that is how it has been forever


1+1=2. This has always been and will always be (I know you guys are gonna nitpick the way I put that!). Unlike the apples in your hands that you added when your primary school teacher told you too, it won't decay; the abstract concepts of 1 and 2 and adding two positive integers are unchanging.
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Xathranaar
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Postby Xathranaar » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:57 pm

The Kingdom Of Griffins with Swords wrote:yes......God and his son Jesus.

Because fuck you holy spirit.
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Salamanstrom
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Postby Salamanstrom » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:58 pm

Ok, the math in a book is absolute. But the numbers that scientist say the universe run on change. Like the speed of light is going down at a very unconstant speed.
If you turn your weapons into plows, you will plow for those who did not.

There's a grief that can't be spoken, There's a pain goes on and on.
Empty chairs at empty tables, Now my friends are dead and gone.
Here they talked of revolution, Here it was they lit the flame.
Here they sang about `tomorrow', And tomorrow never came.

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