Moderation vs. Extremism in Politics

[Baiynistan]

Without extremists nothing would get done, without moderates to curb their enthusiasm nothing would be left after they were finished.

[Mavorpen]

People are STILL using this "human nature" bullshit?

Try changing human nature for all 7 billion people if you think it works out so well. Really...you're part of the problem if you can't understand where others are coming from.

Do you actually know what "human nature" is? Have you actually observed humanity objectively from a viewpoint of not being affected by modern culture, where selfishness is ALREADY seen as good? Because if you actually look at research, you'd see that you're just plain wrong concerning your silly view of human nature. Human children have been shown consistently to be significantly more altruistic than we would have thought. And this is BEFORE they are taught the basics of compassion. Anthropologists have recounted the societies of communities such as pygmy tribesman, who live in very similar ways to our ancestors. One of these tribesman lived by the belief that selfishness is of the highest morality. The man, Cephu, was actually stealing the meat hunted collectively by his fellow tribesman.

At an impromptu trial, Cephu defended himself with arguments for individual initiative and personal responsibility. “He felt he deserved a better place in the line of nets,” [the anthropologist Colin] Turnbull wrote. “After all, was he not an important man, a chief, in fact, of his own band?” But if that were the case, replied a respected member of the camp, Cephu should leave and never return. The Mbuti have no chiefs, they are a society of equals in which redistribution governs everyone’s livelihood. The rest of the camp sat in silent agreement.

Faced with banishment, a punishment nearly equivalent to a death sentence, Cephu relented.

"Human nature" based on selfishness and greed is extremely unsupported by research. Human in nature does not consist of societies of millions of people engaging in capitalist free markets. It consists of small communities engaging in collectivist manners.

[Acrainia]

Extremism is the antithesis to stable, effective government.

States should be governed through cooperation and compromise, not one faction forcing everyone down the path they've predetermined to be "progressive".

But most of all extremists are self absorbed bigots, so sure of their beliefs that they are utterly unwilling to consider compromise or discussion. It boils down to. "I am right and anyone who says otherwise is either an idiot or corrupt".

[The Reasonable]

Try changing human nature for all 7 billion people if you think it works out so well. Really...you're part of the problem if you can't understand where others are coming from.

Do you actually know what "human nature" is? Have you actually observed humanity objectively from a viewpoint of not being affected by modern culture, where selfishness is ALREADY seen as good? Because if you actually look at research, you'd see that you're just plain wrong concerning your silly view of human nature. Human children have been shown consistently to be significantly more altruistic than we would have thought. And this is BEFORE they are taught the basics of compassion. Anthropologists have recounted the societies of communities such as pygmy tribesman, who live in very similar ways to our ancestors. One of these tribesman lived by the belief that selfishness is of the highest morality. The man, Cephu, was actually stealing the meat hunted collectively by his fellow tribesman.

At an impromptu trial, Cephu defended himself with arguments for individual initiative and personal responsibility. “He felt he deserved a better place in the line of nets,” [the anthropologist Colin] Turnbull wrote. “After all, was he not an important man, a chief, in fact, of his own band?” But if that were the case, replied a respected member of the camp, Cephu should leave and never return. The Mbuti have no chiefs, they are a society of equals in which redistribution governs everyone’s livelihood. The rest of the camp sat in silent agreement.

Faced with banishment, a punishment nearly equivalent to a death sentence, Cephu relented.

Have you ever imagined human nature from the perspective of someone who was a victim of it? Human children are altruistic, that's very true. Unfortunately, my altruism as a child cost my mother and myself more than I could ever imagine financially, emotionally, and psychologically- forgiveness given to the wrong person, such as some of my stepfathers, can do that to you.

And don't EVER fall into the stupid fallacy that everybody is at heart compassionate. Cephu is example enough, and others around the world (Republicans, libertarians, etc) are further proof.

And guess what? We live in the selfishness-based modern culture. That's what it is. It would be all nice if people like you made up the entire world, but it doesn't work that way.

[Mavorpen]

Have you ever imagined human nature from the perspective of someone who was a victim of it? Human children are altruistic, that's very true. Unfortunately, my altruism as a child cost my mother and myself more than I could ever imagine financially, emotionally, and psychologically- forgiveness given to the wrong person, such as some of my stepfathers, can do that to you.

So ignore all research, and instead come back with, "BUT I HAD A BAD EXPERIENCE!" That's not how the world works. YOU made a scientific claim when the science actually proves you wrong. Your anecdotes mean jack shit.

And don't EVER fall into the stupid fallacy that everybody is at heart compassionate.

It's a good thing I NEVER claimed that. I'm not ignorant enough to make a conclusion about all of humanity based on what we define as human nature (which ironically is what you are doing).

[L Ron Cupboard]

Without extremists nothing would get done, without moderates to curb their enthusiasm nothing would be left after they were finished.

I like that, is it a quote?

[The Reasonable]

Have you ever imagined human nature from the perspective of someone who was a victim of it? Human children are altruistic, that's very true. Unfortunately, my altruism as a child cost my mother and myself more than I could ever imagine financially, emotionally, and psychologically- forgiveness given to the wrong person, such as some of my stepfathers, can do that to you.

So ignore all research, and instead come back with, "BUT I HAD A BAD EXPERIENCE!" That's not how the world works. YOU made a scientific claim when the science actually proves you wrong. Your anecdotes mean jack shit.

And don't EVER fall into the stupid fallacy that everybody is at heart compassionate.

It's a good thing I NEVER claimed that. I'm not ignorant enough to make a conclusion about all of humanity based on what we define as human nature (which ironically is what you are doing).

Are you kidding me? So you seem to think the world is based on compassion when it's clearly not?

One example is enough to show that society can't be based on the ASSUMPTION that all humans are innately good. Most people are innately good, but NOT ALL. Your scientific evidence only applies to the vast majority of people.

Nor did I ever claim that either. But if someone can abuse the system without repercussions, then that system is flawed.

[Mavorpen]

And guess what? We live in the selfishness-based modern culture. That's what it is. It would be all nice if people like you made up the entire world, but it doesn't work that way.

So we should have never tried to make slavery illegal because that's what the culture was like, amirite?

[Baiynistan]

Without extremists nothing would get done, without moderates to curb their enthusiasm nothing would be left after they were finished.

I like that, is it a quote?

Not that I know of, though I'm sure something similar would have been said by somebody at some point. If not, trademarking Baiynistan - 2012 ™.

[Mavorpen]

Are you kidding me? So you seem to think the world is based on compassion when it's clearly not?

Read my posts instead of foaming at the mouth at the sight of research. I never said the world is based on compassion.

One example is enough to show that society can't be based on the ASSUMPTION that all humans are innately good. Most people are innately good, but NOT ALL. Your scientific evidence only applies to the vast majority of people.

First, I never claimed that all are. Second, I NEVER said we should base society on this. Even communities that ARE collective have laws and rules, because they know that not all people are compassionate/altruistic. My ENTIRE point is that your claim that human nature is selfish and greedy, thus communism goes against it, is false.

Nor did I ever claim that either. But if someone can abuse the system without repercussions, then that system is flawed.

What?

[The Reasonable]

And guess what? We live in the selfishness-based modern culture. That's what it is. It would be all nice if people like you made up the entire world, but it doesn't work that way.

So we should have never tried to make slavery illegal because that's what the culture was like, amirite?

Making a better and more fair society should be encouraged. But that's not the same thing as assuming all humans are at heart altruistic. If anything, banning slavery was an example of NOT believing humans were altruistic- it recognizes that people will enslave and make other suffer for their own economic gain. Your scientific research, applying to MOST, not all people, ignores the few who aren't like that.

[Genocidonia]

I like that, is it a quote?

I don't think so but it totally should be.

Without the socialists telling the "rabble" that employers shouldn't be allowed to let them drop like flies, we wouldn't have labor safety laws. If communists weren't talking about abolishing the wage system, we wouldn't have the eight hour day. Eugene V. Debb, Emma Goldman, and Jack London did more for reformism than the reformists ever did.

[Mavorpen]

So we should have never tried to make slavery illegal because that's what the culture was like, amirite?

Making a better and more fair society should be encouraged. But that's not the same thing as assuming all humans are at heart altruistic. If anything, banning slavery was an example of NOT believing humans were altruistic- it recognizes that people will enslave and make other suffer for their own economic gain.

You do realize a society based on collectivism and equality doesn't mean that they assume all humans are altruistic, right? Are you even keeping up with this discussion? You're throwing up straw men lift and right. Show me where I said all humans are altruistic.

[Genocidonia]

Also, the Reasonable, you should start reading an introduction to the radical Italian communist thinker Antonio Gramsci and how modern culture has been manufactured by the rich (I'm reading Steve Jones' introduction to Gramsci, it's excellent). At least google "cultural hegemony" and watch "The Century Of the Self" by Adam Curtis.

"Human nature" is very muchso created by the rich.

[Arthurista]

A person is radical if his/her ideal state of affairs, let's call it 'utopia' for short, is far removed from the status quo.

Mine is eminently achievable: a Scandinavian welfare state with high standards of living for a large proportion of the population.

[The Reasonable]

Making a better and more fair society should be encouraged. But that's not the same thing as assuming all humans are at heart altruistic. If anything, banning slavery was an example of NOT believing humans were altruistic- it recognizes that people will enslave and make other suffer for their own economic gain.

You do realize a society based on collectivism and equality doesn't mean that they assume all humans are altruistic, right? Are you even keeping up with this discussion? You're throwing up straw men lift and right. Show me where I said all humans are altruistic.

A stateless society such as a communist one has no way of regulating greed and selfishness in case they occur in a few- that's my main problem with it. A few people, at least, will always be greedy and selfish. And if you have laws and regulations, that's against communism, which is anarchist in nature.

[Mavorpen]

You do realize a society based on collectivism and equality doesn't mean that they assume all humans are altruistic, right? Are you even keeping up with this discussion? You're throwing up straw men lift and right. Show me where I said all humans are altruistic.

A stateless society such as a communist one has no way of regulating greed and selfishness in case they occur in a few- that's my main problem with it. A few people, at least, will always be greedy and selfish.

At an impromptu trial, Cephu defended himself with arguments for individual initiative and personal responsibility. “He felt he deserved a better place in the line of nets,” [the anthropologist Colin] Turnbull wrote. “After all, was he not an important man, a chief, in fact, of his own band?” But if that were the case, replied a respected member of the camp, Cephu should leave and never return. The Mbuti have no chiefs, they are a society of equals in which redistribution governs everyone’s livelihood. The rest of the camp sat in silent agreement.

Faced with banishment, a punishment nearly equivalent to a death sentence, Cephu relented.

You were saying?

[Genocidonia]

Also, look up "primitive communism". The stateless, democratic communism we want has been the status quo for thousands of years. Selfishness is a capitalist phenomena the same way consumerism and hedonism is.

[Chinese Regions]

I am centre-left. I wouldn't say being right extremist is better but they openly acknowledge their (incorrect and disgusting) beliefs that they want to kill millions of people. A Stalinist or Juche follower would claim it's all for "equality" and "freedom".

[Mavorpen]

Also, look up "primitive communism". The stateless, democratic communism we want has been the status quo for thousands of years. Selfishness is a capitalist phenomena the same way consumerism and hedonism is.

Democritus was a capitalist?

[The Reasonable]

A stateless society such as a communist one has no way of regulating greed and selfishness in case they occur in a few- that's my main problem with it. A few people, at least, will always be greedy and selfish.

At an impromptu trial, Cephu defended himself with arguments for individual initiative and personal responsibility. “He felt he deserved a better place in the line of nets,” [the anthropologist Colin] Turnbull wrote. “After all, was he not an important man, a chief, in fact, of his own band?” But if that were the case, replied a respected member of the camp, Cephu should leave and never return. The Mbuti have no chiefs, they are a society of equals in which redistribution governs everyone’s livelihood. The rest of the camp sat in silent agreement.

Faced with banishment, a punishment nearly equivalent to a death sentence, Cephu relented.

You were saying?

That's not the society we live in today. To achieve a communist society now, after all the conditioning, would be near impossible. And it's not all conditioning- there still needs to be laws and regulations.

[Mavorpen]

And if you have laws and regulations, that's against communism, which is anarchist in nature.

What the fuck? No it isn't.

[Nidaria]

Moderation is ideal. Extremism blinds one and prevents him from making the wisest and most just judgment.

[Mavorpen]

That's not the society we live in today. To achieve a communist society now, after all the conditioning, would be near impossible.

BRILLIANT dodge of the fact you were wrong.

Achieving a communist society is a different argument from "communist societies have no way to regulate or punish greed."

[Divair]

And if you have laws and regulations, that's against communism, which is anarchist in nature.

What the fuck? No it isn't.

But anarchism is complete chaos, right?