[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I'd love to know their opinions. I value their opinions. However, until they make their opinions known, I can't argue for them, and therefore can't balance them with the nations who HAVE spoken their opinion. Trust me, if it turns out the majority of natives want this refound, I'll vote against the lib. Until then, most natives say FOR, and so I vote FOR.

That, however, brings this debate full circle. If only 20% of your region wanted to be raided (for some reason) and the other 80% were silent, would you be in favor of being raided? Simply basing your vote on the voiced opinions is a poor line of logic for SC Liberations. You need to look at the deeper motives here. This region will be safer with a founder. The current natives have nothing to lose (inb4natsovargument) from being inactive as they are now in a new region.

[Shemiki]

I'd love to know their opinions. I value their opinions. However, until they make their opinions known, I can't argue for them, and therefore can't balance them with the nations who HAVE spoken their opinion. Trust me, if it turns out the majority of natives want this refound, I'll vote against the lib. Until then, most natives say FOR, and so I vote FOR.

That, however, brings this debate full circle. If only 20% of your region wanted to be raided (for some reason) and the other 80% were silent, would you be in favor of being raided? Simply basing your vote on the voiced opinions is a poor line of logic for SC Liberations. You need to look at the deeper motives here. This region will be safer with a founder. The current natives have nothing to lose (inb4natsovargument) from being inactive as they are now in a new region.

For your question about the 10000 Islands (my region), no, because I am a native as well and could express my own opinion. However, if natives of other regions don't want to be raided, I generally don't want that region to be raided. Because the way I see it, those natives know what's best for their region a lot better than Asgard ever could. Perhaps they do prefer having no founder? They can't make their own decisions, not Asgard.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I would just like to clarify that all 4 of these nations appear to be puppets of the same person:

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ingerasul
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=christmas_-_craciun
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=inger_rebel
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=luz_maria

[Shemiki]

I would just like to clarify that all 4 of these nations appear to be puppets of the same person:

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ingerasul
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=christmas_-_craciun
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=inger_rebel
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=luz_maria

So?

[Bundabunda]

I would just like to clarify that all 4 of these nations appear to be puppets of the same person:

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ingerasul
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=christmas_-_craciun
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=inger_rebel
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=luz_maria

So?

So your percentage theory may or may not work here.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I figured you guys who were discussing percentages like it was your job may have wanted to know.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

For your question about the 10000 Islands (my region), no, because I am a native as well and could express my own opinion. However, if natives of other regions don't want to be raided, I generally don't want that region to be raided. Because the way I see it, those natives know what's best for their region a lot better than Asgard ever could. Perhaps they do prefer having no founder? They can't make their own decisions, not Asgard.

Now your argument is they prefer to have no founder?! What happened to Asgard being unsafe, and this Liberation allowing the defenders, those who truly know what is best for the region (lol), to come in and "save" the defenseless natives? Now you are just turning this entire argument upside down and side-stepping my points. You argue Asgard is bad for the region, but think they are more safe without a founder?

[Shemiki]

Alright then...thanks...I think...

[Shemiki]

For your question about the 10000 Islands (my region), no, because I am a native as well and could express my own opinion. However, if natives of other regions don't want to be raided, I generally don't want that region to be raided. Because the way I see it, those natives know what's best for their region a lot better than Asgard ever could. Perhaps they do prefer having no founder? They can't make their own decisions, not Asgard.

Now your argument is they prefer to have no founder?! What happened to Asgard being unsafe, and this Liberation allowing the defenders, those who truly know what is best for the region (lol), to come in and "save" the defenseless natives? Now you are just turning this entire argument upside down and side-stepping my points. You argue Asgard is bad for the region, but think they are more safe without a founder?

I'm saying the natives don't want Asgard in the region, and its not their place, your place, or anyone else's place to tell them they do. Respect the natives and get out (to Asgard, not you).

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I'm saying the natives don't want Asgard in the region, and its not their place, your place, or anyone else's place to tell them they do. Respect the natives and get out (to Asgard, not you).

All two of them. Out of ten or so. This argument keeps coming back, so maybe I will sit back for a while until the whole "Some of the natives dislike the idea of a refound" stops coming up...

[Drop Your Pants]

I'm saying the natives don't want Asgard in the region, and its not their place, your place, or anyone else's place to tell them they do. Respect the natives and get out (to Asgard, not you).

All two of them. Out of ten or so. This argument keeps coming back, so maybe I will sit back for a while until the whole "Some of the natives dislike the idea of a refound" stops coming up...

If it was your region and you were the sole person who spoke out against a refound by a foreign power would you like people to care about your opinion? Or would you like them to ignore you because there's not enough of you?

It doesn't mater if its 2 or 10, they don't want to be kicked out of their region by people trying to "help" them.

[Ambroscus Koth]

If it was your region and you were the sole person who spoke out against a refound by a foreign power would you like people to care about your opinion? Or would you like them to ignore you because there's not enough of you?

It doesn't mater if its 2 or 10, they don't want to be kicked out of their region by people trying to "help" them.

I'd probably realize I don't speak for the whole region.

[United States of Natan]

why cant you just accept the fact that they should not be taken over?

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

why cant you just accept the fact that they should not be taken over?

Since when is that a fact, not an opinion?

[Mahaj]

If it was your region and you were the sole person who spoke out against a refound by a foreign power would you like people to care about your opinion? Or would you like them to ignore you because there's not enough of you?

It doesn't mater if its 2 or 10, they don't want to be kicked out of their region by people trying to "help" them.

I'd probably realize I don't speak for the whole region.

So your opinion doesn't matter?

Since you're not the only person in NationStates, can I conclude that your opinion on *anything* is absolutely irrelevant and worthless?

Argument 1. No natives have supported. I never asked for native support
Argument 2. Only one native supported. I still never asked for native support, and I still hold that the one native was goaded into replying.
Argument 3. Only two natives supported. Have I asked for native support yet? *crickets* Nope. 1/5 of the natives is not a useable argument.
Please stop making this argument.

When you get a substantial amount of natives (let's say 50+%), I'll stop. And yet...oh, there's my point about the natives not being hurt by a refound, addressed waaaaaay down there....

I'm not going to follow your various demands because they never cease and they don't matter. And while you may not have asked, other supporters have, so this was addressed moreso at them.

Your point about the natives not being hurt is insanely silly.

Because the UDL plan isn't "lets hostilely refound this and build a culture in it... we admit we've never done this before and we don't have details finalized because we really don't know what we're doing but oh god please god oh god please trust us that our intentions are noble just ignore all our raids and griefs and the fact that only griefers supported us oh god please god no no no please you must trust us"

That's why. But I expect that comment from you, so w/e.

That still didn't answer my point, drat. All this post does is personify Asgard and their supporters in a light that you dislike. Allow me shrink that post down: "Let's take over a region, even though we are inexperienced and only have raider support."

That sounds more accurate. The UDL is the exact same way, just switch out griefers with "pretentious mightier-than-thous." How is it hostile to refound a region a with no community, activity, or protection? Oh wait, it isn't.

How is it hostile? Those things you mentioned have nothing to do with whether its hostile or not.

And we've seen activity in natives opposing it.

If the american government was coming in to kick out native americans and the native americans did not like it and protested, would you still consider it hostile because you were stronger than them?

[SunRawr]

They are puppets who apparently didn't care much about the region before the UDL told them they should be outraged. They made no effort to protect the region and they made no effort to even be active within the region. All they did was sit back and shut up, so their ability to play the game how they see fit is not affected. Since they were just about as active in Christmas as I was, they have no more claim over it than anyone else. It'd be like DYP trying to claim cit in every one of those regions where he has a puppet stored.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

Oh, who can say what a native is!

[East Berliner Peasants]

Glad to see a Black Hawk agrees with me.
Regardless of the matter, only 2 natives are real people. If they want, they can move to the refounded (or soon to be) region.

[Goon Sack]

... and if they want to piss around with it, good.

Imperialists walking in with their jack boots and rationalisations for oppression need to be stopped.

Especially if they plan to rebuild Christmas. I was happy when I could just ignore it, or at best make an appearance, get shattered on beer and punch, and then stumble away from that scene of destruction.

Voting: FOR

[Bundabunda]

... and if they want to piss around with it, good.

Imperialists walking in with their jack boots and rationalisations for oppression need to be stopped.

Especially if they plan to rebuild Christmas. I was happy when I could just ignore it, or at best make an appearance, get shattered on beer and punch, and then stumble away from that scene of destruction.

Voting: FOR

"Pissing around with it" means that they'll fall prey to a raid. Maybe the next raiders won't be as nice as Asgard.

[Baubles]

"Pissing around with it" means that they'll fall prey to a raid. Maybe the next raiders won't be as nice as Asgard.

Well, the previous raiders have all been nicer than Asgard...none of them have tried to refound us. As for others not being as nice; if this passes they will have to repeal the liberation before they can stand a chance of successfully refounding our region. There will come at least one time when the defenders are able to liberate our region before it comes even close to being refounded.

[Bundabunda]

"Pissing around with it" means that they'll fall prey to a raid. Maybe the next raiders won't be as nice as Asgard.

Well, the previous raiders have all been nicer than Asgard...none of them have tried to refound us. As for others not being as nice; if this passes they will have to repeal the liberation before they can stand a chance of successfully refounding our region. There will come at least one time when the defenders are able to liberate our region before it comes even close to being refounded.

So you've been raided numerous times before?
Let me ask: What's the logic behind not electing a Delegate so you could've at least temporarily passworded it?

This should be a lesson to you: Either you recruit or you password if you don't want invaders. You obviously were not quick to learn and instead choose to make a plea bargain on a region nice enough not to hold it up like a trophy (Or at the very least, keep it open).

[Baubles]

So you've been raided numerous times before?
Let me ask: What's the logic behind not electing a Delegate so you could've at least temporarily passworded it?

This should be a lesson to you: Either you recruit or you password if you don't want invaders. You obviously were not quick to learn and instead choose to make a plea bargain on a region nice enough not to hold it up like a trophy (Or at the very least, keep it open).

Locking the region up is hardly in the Christmas spirit now is it?

Either I'm reading your post wrong, or you are really wrong in your assumptions. We didn't ask Asgard to come and raid us. We didn't ask them to password our region. We didn't ask them to try to refound our region. We didn't "choose to make a plea bargain", Asgard has made a decision and thrust it upon us.

[Christmas Bunny]

I'm not against having the region refounded. I am against having the region refounded by a foreign power who decided they want it to be part of their 'empire'.
I would much rather prefer that someone native to Christmas was allowed to refound it.

I support the liberation proposal.

[Mahaj]

And with the newest support, I anticipate the next argument from the supporters as:

"only three natives support this resolution"

:/