[Draft] Repeal Restrictions on Child Labor

[Balan Bar]

Description: WA Resolution #4: Restrictions on Child Labor (Category: Human Rights; Strength: Strong) shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: This resolution does not give protection to children that it is designed to do by letting the definition of a minor is left to the nation a child resides in.

Noting that while the protections for children are on sound footing, a nation can simple lower the age of when a child is no long a minor or do away with it completely to get around the restrictions set forth in this law.

Concerned that letting nations choose at what age a person stop being a minor, the World Assembly and its member-states could be in-directly giving a nation legal footing to physical and\or sexually exploit its children.

The age of consent is mentioned in the Section (d) of the law, but no definition is given saying what the age of consent is which makes this portion of the law unenforceable.
Hopeful that a new resolution will be passed that will better protect children from unfair labor practices.

The World Assembly hereby repeals “Restrictions on Child Labor".

[Calladan]

Description: WA Resolution #4: Restrictions on Child Labor (Category: Human Rights; Strength: Strong) shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: This resolution does not give protection to children that it is designed to do by letting the definition of a minor is left to the nation a child resides in.

Noting that while the protections for children are on sound footing, a nation can simple lower the age of when a child is no long a minor or do away with it completely to get around the restrictions set forth in this law.

Concerned that letting nations choose at what age a person stop being a minor, the World Assembly and its member-states could be in-directly giving a nation legal footing to physical and\or sexually exploit its children.

The age of consent is mentioned in the Section (d) of the law, but no definition is given saying what the age of consent is which makes this portion of the law unenforceable.
Hopeful that a new resolution will be passed that will better protect children from unfair labor practices.

The World Assembly hereby repeals “Restrictions on Child Labor".

How would you fix the problem?

[Tahkranul]

Este artfully brushes her blue hair back from her protruding grey eyes before speaking.
"Darling, I think you'll find that part of the reason the World Assembly has yet to mandate what ages should define a minor and consent is because the Assembly is comprised of members from multiple worlds, representing multiple sapient species -- not all of these species age and mature at similar rates. The resolution is fine as it stands, repealing it would only allow corrupt and cruel governments to send children back to work -- something Tahkranul will never again allow."

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

Teran Saber: "The Greater Siriusian Domain is made up of multiple species, many of which mature at different rates. The age of 18 may be mature for a human or an En'gari, but a Siriusian of that age is still a kitten for all intents and purposes. If the World Assembly forced us to follow a fixed age for all species within the Confederacy, that would leave us unable to protect some species from child labor, while other species would be denied the right to work at all due to having short lifespans."

OOC: And if you doubt that the Greater Siriusian Domain's intentions are noble, well, take one look at my integrity stat. Top 0.9%, baby!

[Wistomerobi Metland]

Instead of repealing the Restrictions on Child Labor, it may be best to put forth a resolution standardizing at what age do we stop considering a person a "minor".

[States of Glory WA Office]

Instead of repealing the Restrictions on Child Labor, it may be best to put forth a resolution standardizing at what age do we stop considering a person a "minor".

Neville: With the number of species represented in this Chamber, that would be impossible. What's mature for one species could be immature for another.

OOC: Welcome to the Festering Snakepit^TM! Useful links are here, here and here. If you're not sure of anything, don't be afraid to ask.

[Balan Bar]

"Darling, I think you'll find that part of the reason the World Assembly has yet to mandate what ages should define a minor and consent is because the Assembly is comprised of members from multiple worlds, representing multiple sapient species -- not all of these species age and mature at similar rates.

"I believe a committee can be set up to determine to proper age at which each specie matures, so the age of a minor can be made that this law can actually do what it was mean to do"

The resolution is fine as it stands, repealing it would only allow corrupt and cruel governments to send children back to work -- something Tahkranul will never again allow."

"Like I have stated already a nation can simple lower the age of when a child is no long a minor or do away with it completely, so a corrupt and cruel governments can already do this.

turns to look at Teran Saber

"The Greater Siriusian Domain is made up of multiple species, many of which mature at different rates. The age of 18 may be mature for a human or an En'gari, but a Siriusian of that age is still a kitten for all intents and purposes. If the World Assembly forced us to follow a fixed age for all species within the Confederacy, that would leave us unable to protect some species from child labor, while other species would be denied the right to work at all due to having short lifespans."

"I just gave a possible solution to help make a new proposal that could protect the children of all Member-states."

[Balan Bar]

Instead of repealing the Restrictions on Child Labor, it may be best to put forth a resolution standardizing at what age do we stop considering a person a "minor".

"That would mean original law would need to be amended and to my knowledge that cannot be done"

[Calladan]

Instead of repealing the Restrictions on Child Labor, it may be best to put forth a resolution standardizing at what age do we stop considering a person a "minor".

But doesn't that bring a whole bunch of problems in and of itself? In Calladan, we have a different age of consent for sexual activity from the age at which a person is considered an adult? (15 and 18 respectively) And if you want to get even further into it there are ages of sexual consent, the age at which you can get married, the age at which you can get a job (and the type of job might raise or lower the age), the age at which you can enlist in the armed services, the age at which you can sign a contract, the age at which you can drink, the age at which you can drive....... now most nations combine some of those into a single phrase (age of majority - or the age of adulthood) but some nations still set their barriers at different ages. Plus I believe there are some nations that allow marriage to take place earlier with the consent of one of both of the parents? (I would have to research that).

So - how do you define when a child becomes a "not child", exactly?

[Separatist Peoples]

"Any nation that uses this age of majority loophole to allow child labor open themselves up to bigger problems. Like letting their children vote, drive, drink, and get married. No sane nation will do that, and authors are not expected to accomodate insane nations. This isn't necessary."

[Balan Bar]

"Any nation that uses this age of majority loophole to allow child labor open themselves up to bigger problems. Like letting their children vote, drive, drink, and get married. No sane nation will do that, and authors are not expected to accomodate insane nations. This isn't necessary."

"The current law has nothing to do will what age you can vote, drink, marry, or drive. Member-states can already place the age for these things below what would be considered an adult if the law had a standard age."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Any nation that uses this age of majority loophole to allow child labor open themselves up to bigger problems. Like letting their children vote, drive, drink, and get married. No sane nation will do that, and authors are not expected to accomodate insane nations. This isn't necessary."

"The current law has nothing to do will what age you can vote, drink, marry, or drive. Member-states can already place the age for these things below what would be considered an adult if the law had a standard age."

"No, they can't. A number of laws dealing with discrimination, including age discrimination, use the term "age of majority". No nation is going to be able to abuse that loophole without also making sure that loophole applies equally to other age-specific instances. This is a nonissue. It has been a nonissue since Restrictions on Child Labor was written. We even have a term for it: the Reasonable Nation Theory."

[States of Glory WA Office]

Plus I believe there are some nations that allow marriage to take place earlier with the consent of one of both of the parents? (I would have to research that).

Neville: Parents? (looks confused)

Fairburn: You'd expect that ambassadors would know how to use words. Anyway, I think that such allowances are known as "Romeo and Juliet laws", though I can't for the life of me figure out why.

"Any nation that uses this age of majority loophole to allow child labor open themselves up to bigger problems. Like letting their children vote, drive, drink, and get married."

OOC: Not necessarily. Here in the UK, you can work as soon as you're 13 provided that certain restrictions are met, and once you turn 16, the only restrictions are that you can't work at places which primarily serve alcohol (you have to be 18 to do that). You have to be 18 to vote, 17 to drive, 18 to drink and 18 to marry (unless you have parental consent, permission from a court or you live in Scotland, in which case the age is 16). It's quite clear that lowering the age of majority will not force nations to lower the other minimum ages.

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

"I just gave a possible solution to help make a new proposal that could protect the children of all Member-states."

Teran Saber: "A possible solution that would cause a LOT of trouble for MANY nations. As such, the Confederacy absolutely CANNOT support this repeal based on the reasons given. I don't know if you know this or not, ambassador, but humans are NOT the only species in the World Assembly."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Any nation that uses this age of majority loophole to allow child labor open themselves up to bigger problems. Like letting their children vote, drive, drink, and get married."

OOC: Not necessarily. Here in the UK, you can work as soon as you're 13 provided that certain restrictions are met, and once you turn 16, the only restrictions are that you can't work at places which primarily serve alcohol (you have to be 18 to do that). You have to be 18 to vote, 17 to drive, 18 to drink and 18 to marry (unless you have parental consent, permission from a court or you live in Scotland, in which case the age is 16). It's quite clear that lowering the age of majority will not force nations to lower the other minimum ages.

OOC: That is not reducing the Age of Majority, though. That is one of the flaws of RoCL, it fails to distinguish between different kinds of labor sufficiently to allow that. However, in the NS world, it does handily get around the idea of dropping the Age of Majority as a way to allow child labor.

I'm not saying that this a good law, I'm saying that is a bad argument against it.

[States of Glory WA Office]

OOC: Not necessarily. Here in the UK, you can work as soon as you're 13 provided that certain restrictions are met, and once you turn 16, the only restrictions are that you can't work at places which primarily serve alcohol (you have to be 18 to do that). You have to be 18 to vote, 17 to drive, 18 to drink and 18 to marry (unless you have parental consent, permission from a court or you live in Scotland, in which case the age is 16). It's quite clear that lowering the age of majority will not force nations to lower the other minimum ages.

OOC: That is not reducing the Age of Majority, though. That is one of the flaws of RoCL, it fails to distinguish between different kinds of labor sufficiently to allow that. However, in the NS world, it does handily get around the idea of dropping the Age of Majority as a way to allow child labor.

I'm not saying that this a good law, I'm saying that is a bad argument against it.

OOC: For what it's worth, GA #299 a.k.a Legal Competence allows nations to set different legal minimum ages. I don't know if that affects anything since I can't understand what your argument is, but I don't know if that's because your argument is too confusing or if that's because I'm too sleepy right now.

Basically, the gist of my argument is that you can reduce the age of majority to something ridiculously low and you can do it while preventing minors from drinking, driving, voting etc. Am I clear or am I just waffling on?

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: That is not reducing the Age of Majority, though. That is one of the flaws of RoCL, it fails to distinguish between different kinds of labor sufficiently to allow that. However, in the NS world, it does handily get around the idea of dropping the Age of Majority as a way to allow child labor.

I'm not saying that this a good law, I'm saying that is a bad argument against it.

OOC: For what it's worth, GA #299 a.k.a Legal Competence allows nations to set different legal minimum ages. I don't know if that affects anything since I can't understand what your argument is, but I don't know if that's because your argument is too confusing or if that's because I'm too sleepy right now.

Basically, the gist of my argument is that you can reduce the age of majority to something ridiculously low and you can do it while preventing minors from drinking, driving, voting etc. Am I clear or am I just waffling on?

OOC: If you lack the mental competence to make decisions regarding your health, business, and political choice, how can you be expected to make a decision regarding your labor? Dropping the age of majority for labor in this way is not a good-faith interpretation, and has been debunked for years.

[Bananaistan]

OOC: GAR#299 explicitly tells member states that it can set different "thresholds of maturity" for all sorts of things. At the moment the WA only requires a single age of majority in respect of these child labour restrictions, being grant a passport by their home nation, and being allowed to assist a disabled voter. There are a few other mentions of "age of majority" but decision making is left in the hands of member states, such as the Patient's Rights Act reference to patients also being the guardians of an individual under the age of majority. GAR#299 makes no mention of an age of majority and it is not a given that the "age of legal competence" established in GAR#299 is the same thing as the "age of majority" referred to a handful of times in other extant legislation.

The effect of this is that a member nation wishing to circumvent the provisions of GAR#4 by setting an unreasonably low age of majority need only be concerned that such "children" would also be entitled to their own passport when travelling abroad, would be able to make their own decisions about their healthcare and must be allowed to assist disabled voters. All the mentioned objections about driving, voting, drinking etc are invalid as the WA has explicitly recognised that nations can set differing "thresholds" of maturity for different actions/rights.

[Imperium Anglorum]

The effect of this is that a member nation wishing to circumvent the provisions of GAR#4 by setting an unreasonably low age of majority need only be concerned that such "children" would also be entitled to their own passport when travelling abroad, would be able to make their own decisions about their healthcare and must be allowed to assist disabled voters. All the mentioned objections about driving, voting, drinking etc are invalid as the WA has explicitly recognised that nations can set differing "thresholds" of maturity for different actions/rights.

OOC: I've always believed that things like this are also the countervailing force against 4 GA-wankery. Though, it would be nice to see more things use 'age of majority' to increase the magnitude of that force.

[States of Glory WA Office]

The effect of this is that a member nation wishing to circumvent the provisions of GAR#4 by setting an unreasonably low age of majority need only be concerned that such "children" would also be entitled to their own passport when travelling abroad, would be able to make their own decisions about their healthcare and must be allowed to assist disabled voters. All the mentioned objections about driving, voting, drinking etc are invalid as the WA has explicitly recognised that nations can set differing "thresholds" of maturity for different actions/rights.

OOC: I've always believed that things like this are also the countervailing force against 4 GA-wankery. Though, it would be nice to see more things use 'age of majority' to increase the magnitude of that force.

OOC: For some nations, that may be enough to discourage them from setting the age of majority ridiculously low. For others, however, those are merely small sacrifices that have to be made in order to legalise child manual labour and child conscription.

[Umeria]

"I have a possible solution to this 'age of majority' issue: a committee could be made to review all sentient species existing in member nations, and decide individually what age each species reaches maturity. It may be expensive due to travel costs, but considering how much controversy has resulted from this issue, I believe it would be worth it."

[Calladan]

"I have a possible solution to this 'age of majority' issue: a committee could be made to review all sentient species existing in member nations, and decide individually what age each species reaches maturity. It may be expensive due to travel costs, but considering how much controversy has resulted from this issue, I believe it would be worth it."

That does sound like a reasonable solution but the first question will be "who is going to pay for this - the member nations themselves or The WA?" -- because that might prove to be the sticking point for some nations

[States of Glory WA Office]

"I have a possible solution to this 'age of majority' issue: a committee could be made to review all sentient species existing in member nations, and decide individually what age each species reaches maturity. It may be expensive due to travel costs, but considering how much controversy has resulted from this issue, I believe it would be worth it."

That does sound like a reasonable solution but the first question will be "who is going to pay for this - the member nations themselves or The WA?" -- because that might prove to be the sticking point for some nations

Neville: Assuming that it'd come from the General Fund, it would technically be both.

[Calladan]

That does sound like a reasonable solution but the first question will be "who is going to pay for this - the member nations themselves or The WA?" -- because that might prove to be the sticking point for some nations

Neville: Assuming that it'd come from the General Fund, it would technically be both.

At which point the response will be "So we have to pay for the privilege of being told by outsiders that we are treating full grown members of our species like children? Or that we are deliberately acting like degenerates by classifying immature members of our species as adults just so we can use them for labour or sexual purposes? I find those accusations offensive and withdraw from The WA at once!"

I am not suggesting that Calladan would respond like that, of course. I am just suggesting that - given the age of sexual consent in Calladan is 15, and the age of majority is 18, then an outside committee is going to have to review both ages and take into account the cultural history that lead to this decision, as well as any biological and psychological evidence about the "average" Calladanian before coming to a decision about whether these two ages are correct and - should this committee decide that any changes to either age is necessary - be prepared to decide whether it will allow Calladan to accept the recommendation for the change, or force the change upon us through WA mandate.

And I realise that this committee is currently hypothetical, but who gets to decide on the makeup of membership of it? Because surely the cultural and ethnic and species bias of the members will affect how they review each nation. For example if there is a devoutly religious nation that has a member on the committee, that member might be more inclined to think the age of adulthood (consent/majority or both) should be set a lot higher on average than (for example) a Calladanian might, and might endeavour to influence other members of the committee to agree. Whereas if there is a species whose entire lifespan passes within twenty five years, their definition of adulthood is bound to be a great deal lower than most.

I know I am putting a lot of thought into something that doesn't exist and might never exist, but you are talking about something that has the potential to effect every citizen of The WA and every future citizen of The WA as well, and while The WA usually has some level of (shall we say) intrusion into national sovereignty, this committee would go well beyond ANYTHING that has gone before and so naturally it is of more than a little concern

But for now I would simply point out that some nations will probably not respond well to being told they are going to be asked to pay to confirm the fact they are not abusing/exploiting children and leave the rest of my concerns until this committee actually exists (or at least has more of a potential for existence than it does now).

[Asarabanda Lavanda]

Maybe we should set a number of conditions to consider an individual an adult, like the capability to move, reproduce, think and speak in a coherent way, etc.
This, however, creates even more loopholes, now that I think about it. For example, sterile people might not be considered adults. Still, making a list of the basic functions adults of all the species in the WA share might be a way to get to a standard.