[DRAFT] Espousal of Gender Fluidity

[Excelsior Laude]

The Empire of Excelsior Laude will be voting against this resolution should it come to the floor of the General Assembly.

edit: spelling

[Separatist Peoples]

The Empire of Excelsior Laude will be voting against this resolution should it come to the floor of the General Assembly.

edit: spelling

"Any particular reasoning?"

[Cogoria]

The government of Cogoria shall be voting against this should it be brought to the voting stage. Personal choices in identity are not a governmental concern we feel, in our nation what you do in your private life behind closed doors is your business, but the government merely recognises it's people as workers only when out in public or at work. Any distinction used between sexes is only for medical purposes. If this bill were passed we would be forced to readdress our entire culture.

[Calladan]

The government of Cogoria shall be voting against this should it be brought to the voting stage. Personal choices in identity are not a governmental concern we feel, in our nation what you do in your private life behind closed doors is your business, but the government merely recognises it's people as workers only when out in public or at work. Any distinction used between sexes is only for medical purposes. If this bill were passed we would be forced to readdress our entire culture.

So you feel that making people address other people by certain terms, and forbidding them to address other people by certain terms is not the business of government? That people should be free to use whatever terms like they to address their fellow citizens, no matter how much offence or pain or emotional distress those terms might cause?

[Jarish Inyo]

So you feel that making people address other people by certain terms, and forbidding them to address other people by certain terms is not the business of government? That people should be free to use whatever terms like they to address their fellow citizens, no matter how much offence or pain or emotional distress those terms might cause?

In the opinion of the government of Jarish Inyo, it's not the business of the government to make people address other people by certain terms, and forbidding them to address other people by certain terms. Nor is it the business of the government to create 'safe zones' or coddle people because their feelings are hurt or don't like something.

[Tinfect]

The government of Cogoria shall be voting against this should it be brought to the voting stage. Personal choices in identity are not a governmental concern we feel, in our nation what you do in your private life behind closed doors is your business, but the government merely recognises it's people as workers only when out in public or at work. Any distinction used between sexes is only for medical purposes. If this bill were passed we would be forced to readdress our entire culture.

So you feel that making people address other people by certain terms, and forbidding them to address other people by certain terms is not the business of government? That people should be free to use whatever terms like they to address their fellow citizens, no matter how much offence or pain or emotional distress those terms might cause?

"The Imperium sees no reason to restrict the rights of our people to speak. The Imperium, also, maintains 'Justified Assault' laws, for such situations."

[Grays Harbor]

The government of Cogoria shall be voting against this should it be brought to the voting stage. Personal choices in identity are not a governmental concern we feel, in our nation what you do in your private life behind closed doors is your business, but the government merely recognises it's people as workers only when out in public or at work. Any distinction used between sexes is only for medical purposes. If this bill were passed we would be forced to readdress our entire culture.

So you feel that making people address other people by certain terms, and forbidding them to address other people by certain terms is not the business of government? That people should be free to use whatever terms like they to address their fellow citizens, no matter how much offence or pain or emotional distress those terms might cause?

Yes, actually. It is not the place of government to play nanny and forbid "words" because somebody may find them icky. It is not the place of government to build "safe spaces". It is definitely not the lace of the WA to encourage the first stages of implementing thought police.

[Araraukar]

It is definitely not the lace of the WA to encourage the first stages of implementing thought police.

OOC: The well-placed typo for some reason conjured up images of a police force in tutus.

"Are you the thought police? I want to report my neighbour for his dirty thoughts getting on my side of the fence."
"No, we're the Tutu Police. The Thought Police is one more door that way."

[The New Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth]

Science is not always correct. The simple nature-given truth is still there.

[Calladan]

So you feel that making people address other people by certain terms, and forbidding them to address other people by certain terms is not the business of government? That people should be free to use whatever terms like they to address their fellow citizens, no matter how much offence or pain or emotional distress those terms might cause?

Yes, actually. It is not the place of government to play nanny and forbid "words" because somebody may find them icky. It is not the place of government to build "safe spaces". It is definitely not the lace of the WA to encourage the first stages of implementing thought police.

Actually, I would have thought that "building safe spaces" (yes - I know I adjusted the quote slightly) is exactly what the government exists for. We believe we are here to protect the weakest amongst us, and to help everyone be the best they can be. If we can't do that because half the nation is openly discriminating against the other half just because they find their beliefs/race/creed/colour/sex/gender/etc inferior or something they don't want to deal with, or something they don't think is "real" because they lack imagination, then what in the name of Zorp ARE we doing here??? Just making the sure the trains run on time and the rubbish bins get emptied every week?? Government should be better than that.

(Amb. McGill returns a moment later)

Just to be clear, and avoid accusations of police officers in tutus, I am not suggesting that in Calladan we (the government and our respective agents, such as the police) monitor every conversation and have people arrested for every insulting or racist them they use. That would just be insane, and impossible and pretty much against what we stand for.

However the government leads by example and - when we (or rather, the police) get complaints about "icky" language, they are investigated and acted on. Because - as I said - if we fail to do that, then we are failing in our duty to protect everyone equally.

[Kryozerkia]

OOC: I think the gender fluid provisions of this proposal are probably already covered by the "intergender" provisions of A Convention On Gender. So you may be best off concentrating on the education aspect, because Reproductive Education Act doesn't seem to go into this in great detail and there may be room for expansion on the topic without "duplication".

I concur. The majority of the proposal covers subject matter touched upon previously. An educational version may work if it doesn't overlap/duplicate.

[Wallenburg]

Science is not always correct. The simple nature-given truth is still there.

"Um...what?"

[Alozia]

Science is not always correct. The simple nature-given truth is still there.

"Um...what?"

exactly *insert thank you .gif here*

[Araraukar]

Science is not always correct. The simple nature-given truth is still there.

"Um...what?"

OOC: The words "the truth is out there" came to mind first...

[The New Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth]

Science is not always correct. The simple nature-given truth is still there.

"Um...what?"

"Science can tomorrow prove whatever they like. Its not always true."

[Wallenburg]

"Um...what?"

"Science can tomorrow prove whatever they like. Its not always true."

"Science is not a person, Ambassador."

[Herby]

"Um...what?"

"Science can tomorrow prove whatever they like. Its not always true."

Ehhhhh I don't think "science" means what you think it means bud.

[Calladan]

"Science can tomorrow prove whatever they like. Its not always true."

Ehhhhh I don't think "science" means what you think it means bud.

While what I am about to say should [i]in no way[/i/ be taken as an endorsement of whatever view TNPLC is trying to promote, it could be said that "science" (or at least the scientific community) does have a bad habit of telling us one thing one day, then another thing a few years later.

Today trans-fats are bad for you. Twenty years ago, they were good. Today, drinking a lot of milk is bad for you, while ten years ago it was a good thing (tm) for bones and the smiley faces on children.

Forty, fifty years ago, smoking was advertised on TV as an excellent thing to do. TV shows were sponsored by cigarette makers, doctors promoted smoking as an aide to healthy living. Today - not so much.

So while I would say that TNPLC is badly abusing the word "science" in saying that "Science is not always correct" there is - possibly - a case to be made that what doctors, scientists and other scientific folk tells us today is "the truth" is only the truth as far as they know it, and that tomorrow they might learn something that changes what their view of "the truth" is.

However quite how this relates to the debate at hand is beyond me.

[Bananaistan]

... Today, drinking a lot of milk is bad for you ...

OOC: Is this something like how too much water can be bad for you? As in some ridiculous amount that no normal person would ever drink.

[Calladan]

... Today, drinking a lot of milk is bad for you ...

OOC: Is this something like how too much water can be bad for you? As in some ridiculous amount that no normal person would ever drink.

To be entirely honest, it was just a random example. I am not entirely sure anyone has ever said drinking too much milk is bad for anyone, unless they are allergic to milk in the first place, of course

[Sierra Lyricalia]

"I believe this proposal would have a better shot at passing if the word 'espousal' were changed to 'recognition,' both in the title and in the text, where 'espouse the custom' should become 'recognize the fact.' This makes the resolution's aim to accept reality, rather than to push an agenda."

[Araraukar]

I just realized the author hasn't posted here in almost two weeks. Maybe we should let it die until/unless they come back.

[Bananaistan]

People might also note the contents of the fourth post in the thread.