[DEFEATED] Nuclear Weapons Accord

[Imperium Anglorum]

"So, ban war?"

PARSONS: Then, people will say, 'we are not at war, we are just euphamism-for-war-here'.

[Excidium Planetis]

Blackbourne speaks up again. "I will repeat my question: How does Wartime Looting and Pillage not render this proposal totally unnecessary?"

"So, ban war?"

PARSONS: Then, people will say, 'we are not at war, we are just euphamism-for-war-here'.

"Mass dueling." Schultz says. "It will be a thing."

[Wallenburg]

Blackbourne speaks up again. "I will repeat my question: How does Wartime Looting and Pillage not render this proposal totally unnecessary?"

"It explains in further detail member nations' military liberties, and mandates not only more careful use of nuclear weapons, but also relief or compensation for unintended damages to civilian populations."

[States of Glory WA Office]

"So, ban war?"

PARSONS: Then, people will say, 'we are not at war, we are just euphamism-for-war-here'.

Solution: Ban all violence. We should be, like, encouraging pacifism.

[Calladan]

PARSONS: Then, people will say, 'we are not at war, we are just euphamism-for-war-here'.

Solution: Ban all violence. We should be, like, encouraging pacifism.

I am all for pacifism, but doesn't violence include things such as boxing and other related sports?

[States of Glory WA Office]

Solution: Ban all violence. We should be, like, encouraging pacifism.

I am all for pacifism, but doesn't violence include things such as boxing and other related sports?

Yes. What's your point? Boxing is a primitive gorefest which has no place in the modern world.

[Calladan]

I am all for pacifism, but doesn't violence include things such as boxing and other related sports?

Yes. What's your point? Boxing is a primitive gorefest which has no place in the modern world.

True, and something on which we agree. But some people say that about chess, or scrabble. (The "no place in the modern world" part, not the primitive gorefest part. Well, not very often at least). I was just commenting that some people enjoy it and we'd be taking away their fun as well as saving lives.

[Separatist Peoples]

I am all for pacifism, but doesn't violence include things such as boxing and other related sports?

Yes. What's your point? Boxing is a primitive gorefest which has no place in the modern world.

"You'll forgive me if I'm not willing to give up my gym time in the ring to satisfy your ideals, ambassador." Bell, the former Naval Aviation Boxing Champion, said.

[Excidium Planetis]

Blackbourne speaks up again. "I will repeat my question: How does Wartime Looting and Pillage not render this proposal totally unnecessary?"

"It explains in further detail member nations' military liberties, and mandates not only more careful use of nuclear weapons, but also relief or compensation for unintended damages to civilian populations."

"This proposal does not mandate more careful use. The only uses of nuclear weapons which this proposal bans are those uses already prohibited by Wartime Looting and Pillage, that is, the deliberate targeting of civilians. The only uses of nuclear weapons it allows are those already allowed, that of legal military targets and retaliatory strikes in the interest of Mutually Assured Destruction. This proposal mandates the same use of nuclear weapons that the WA already requires." Blackbourne responds. "As for the compensation, I fail to see why that is necessary or even beneficial. In a war, it is sometimes not possible to be nice and pay your opponent for damages to civilians. If a nation attacks you with the intention of wiping out your people, and you accidentally hit some civilians with your artillery strike, or maybe they accidentally wander into your perfectly legal defensive minefield, it does not make sense to have to pay the nation intent on destroying your people."

[Separatist Peoples]

"It explains in further detail member nations' military liberties, and mandates not only more careful use of nuclear weapons, but also relief or compensation for unintended damages to civilian populations."

"This proposal does not mandate more careful use. The only uses of nuclear weapons which this proposal bans are those uses already prohibited by Wartime Looting and Pillage, that is, the deliberate targeting of civilians. The only uses of nuclear weapons it allows are those already allowed, that of legal military targets and retaliatory strikes in the interest of Mutually Assured Destruction. This proposal mandates the same use of nuclear weapons that the WA already requires." Blackbourne responds. "As for the compensation, I fail to see why that is necessary or even beneficial. In a war, it is sometimes not possible to be nice and pay your opponent for damages to civilians. If a nation attacks you with the intention of wiping out your people, and you accidentally hit some civilians with your artillery strike, or maybe they accidentally wander into your perfectly legal defensive minefield, it does not make sense to have to pay the nation intent on destroying your people."

"That is the sort of compensatory action that occurs after the conclusion of hostilities, or at least at the soonest point by which a court martial can be formed. Implying that it must be done while destruction is ongoing. Compensation is a key part in addressing wrongdoings, and having to pay creates an additional deterrence factor their use by nations, which will ensure they utilize these weapons more carefully. It is a principal that functions well in tort law, and can be reasonably expected to apply in other areas of law that seek to address wrongdoings outside the purely criminal justice system.

"There is also great benefit in explicitly outlining the conduct for a nonconventional form of warfare, even if it is functionally similar to the conduct in conventional warfare."

[Wallenburg]

"This proposal does not mandate more careful use.

Requires member states to avoid whenever possible the collateral injury of civilian populations when using nuclear weapons,

"I highly encourage you to try reading my proposal."

The only uses of nuclear weapons which this proposal bans are those uses already prohibited by Wartime Looting and Pillage, that is, the deliberate targeting of civilians. The only uses of nuclear weapons it allows are those already allowed, that of legal military targets and retaliatory strikes in the interest of Mutually Assured Destruction. This proposal mandates the same use of nuclear weapons that the WA already requires."

"I agree. Your point? Is it not appropriate to, in addressing this sliver of military policy, reiterate a bit?"

Blackbourne responds. "As for the compensation, I fail to see why that is necessary or even beneficial. In a war, it is sometimes not possible to be nice and pay your opponent for damages to civilians.

"It might not be 'necessary or beneficial' in the practical military sense, but it is absolutely necessary and beneficial to the victims of war. This Assembly has a history of protecting civilian noncombatants and relieving them when they suffer from the horrors of war. I see no reason not to continue this commendable trend."

If a nation attacks you with the intention of wiping out your people, and you accidentally hit some civilians with your artillery strike, or maybe they accidentally wander into your perfectly legal defensive minefield, it does not make sense to have to pay the nation intent on destroying your people."

"I'm confused here, Ambassador. Are you saying that there are nations that regularly use nuclear weapons as standard artillery and landmines?"

[Dooom35796821595]

Yes. What's your point? Boxing is a primitive gorefest which has no place in the modern world.

"You'll forgive me if I'm not willing to give up my gym time in the ring to satisfy your ideals, ambassador." Bell, the former Naval Aviation Boxing Champion, said.

As much as I hate to agree with a peacemonger, the idea of a sport that encourages repeated blows to the head seems counterintuitive to maintaining an intelligent populace.

[Separatist Peoples]

"You'll forgive me if I'm not willing to give up my gym time in the ring to satisfy your ideals, ambassador." Bell, the former Naval Aviation Boxing Champion, said.

As much as I hate to agree with a peacemonger, the idea of a sport that encourages repeated blows to the head seems counterintuitive to maintaining an intelligent populace.

"Ambassador, that is what safety equipment is for. While I hardly competed professionally, I found boxing to be a satisfying, engaging sport that in no way affected my intelligence, or even the angle of my beautifully proportioned nose."

Bell holds his face in profile for everybody to admire.

[Dooom35796821595]

As much as I hate to agree with a peacemonger, the idea of a sport that encourages repeated blows to the head seems counterintuitive to maintaining an intelligent populace.

"Ambassador, that is what safety equipment is for. While I hardly competed professionally, I found boxing to be a satisfying, engaging sport that in no way affected my intelligence, or even the angle of my beautifully proportioned nose."

Bell holds his face in profile for everybody to admire.

Safety equiptment? And you still found it engaging? I guess it's different for every species.

[States of Glory WA Office]

Yes. What's your point? Boxing is a primitive gorefest which has no place in the modern world.

I was just commenting that some people enjoy it and we'd be taking away their fun as well as saving lives.

I don't consider getting hurt and possibly dying to be fun, Ambassador. It takes a totally sick weirdo to enjoy such stuff.

Yes. What's your point? Boxing is a primitive gorefest which has no place in the modern world.

"You'll forgive me if I'm not willing to give up my gym time in the ring to satisfy your ideals, ambassador." Bell, the former Naval Aviation Boxing Champion, said.

No, I won't. I will have, like, no sympathy if you are no longer able to partake in violent conduct.

As much as I hate to agree with a peacemonger

Why? Is the idea of peace sickening to you? Do you take pleasure in other people's suffering and misery?

"Ambassador, that is what safety equipment is for.

OOC: You mean head protection? You do realise that head protection increases the chances of concussion in men, right?

[Separatist Peoples]

I don't consider getting hurt and possibly dying to be fun, Ambassador. It takes a totally sick weirdo to enjoy such stuff.

Bell clears his throat a bit.

"You'll forgive me if I'm not willing to give up my gym time in the ring to satisfy your ideals, ambassador." Bell, the former Naval Aviation Boxing Champion, said.

No, I won't. I will have, like, no sympathy if you are no longer able to partake in violent conduct.

"I'm not asking you to have sympathy. Just not get in the way."

"Ambassador, that is what safety equipment is for.

OOC: You mean head protection? You do realise that head protection increases the chances of concussion in men, right?

OOC: I meant a mouth guard and gloves...as opposed to bareknuckle boxing.

[Wallenburg]

"Ambassadors, this discussion is quite interesting, but it is highly irrelevant, and I'd rather not see people get physical. The last defenestration cost my offices a fortune on window repair and dry cleaning."

[States of Glory WA Office]

"Ambassadors, this discussion is quite interesting, but it is highly irrelevant, and I'd rather not see people get physical. The last defenestration cost my offices a fortune on window repair and dry cleaning."

(Rowan's phone starts ringing)

Rowan: (picks up phone) Yes, hello? Ah, Neville! You have something to say to Ambassador Ogenbond? I'll place the phone on his ear and hope that he doesn't attack.

Neville (over the phone): Is that you, Ambassador Ogenbond? I can see the live stream of the debate from the Bar. Pretty cool, huh? Anyway, if you're suggesting that you're willing to pay for my dry cleaning then I'd be more than happy to send over the bill.

Also, since wartime legislation is not my specialty, I can't comment on whether or not this draft is booby-trapped. If it doesn't duplicate then I'm fine supporting it. However, if it does duplicate then I'll have to vote against on those grounds. Have a good day. (hangs up)

Rowan: I still don't dig this, by the way, but I don't make the decisions.

[Wallenburg]

"If there are no further suggestions, I shall submit this soon."

[Excidium Planetis]

"If there are no further suggestions, I shall submit this soon."

"I will not stand by, Ambassador Ogenbond, as I did when you repealed Foreign Patent Recognition (against Madam Schultz' advice, I may add). This directly affects our nation too greatly."

[Wallenburg]

"If there are no further suggestions, I shall submit this soon."

"I will not stand by, Ambassador Ogenbond, as I did when you repealed Foreign Patent Recognition (against Madam Schultz' advice, I may add). This directly affects our nation too greatly."

"I shall keep note of your nation's apparent obsession with obliterating innocent civilians with nuclear weapons. Now, any suggestions?"

[Excidium Planetis]

"I will not stand by, Ambassador Ogenbond, as I did when you repealed Foreign Patent Recognition (against Madam Schultz' advice, I may add). This directly affects our nation too greatly."

"I shall keep note of your nation's apparent obsession with obliterating innocent civilians with nuclear weapons. Now, any suggestions?"

"We don't obliterate innocent civilians, we just don't believe it is right to be forced to pay nations for damages inflicted in a war which they themselves started." Blackbourne responds.

"It's like war profiteering, except without the profit." Schultz chimes in. "Nobody should get money because they started a war. Prizes for finishing one, though..."

Blackbourne resumes before Schultz carries this conversation too far into space raider land. "I suggest that you reread your draft and make sure it does what you think it does, Ambassador Ogenbond."

[Wallenburg]

"I shall keep note of your nation's apparent obsession with obliterating innocent civilians with nuclear weapons. Now, any suggestions?"

"We don't obliterate innocent civilians, we just don't believe it is right to be forced to pay nations for damages inflicted in a war which they themselves started." Blackbourne responds.

"I fail to see how one nation and its people must be held responsible for another nation dropping nuclear weapons on them."

"It's like war profiteering, except without the profit." Schultz chimes in. "Nobody should get money because they started a war. Prizes for finishing one, though..."

Blackbourne resumes before Schultz carries this conversation too far into space raider land. "I suggest that you reread your draft and make sure it does what you think it does, Ambassador Ogenbond."

"If you think this proposal would give nations money for waging war, perhaps you ought to reread my draft, and make sure it does what you think it does."

[Calladan]

"We don't obliterate innocent civilians, we just don't believe it is right to be forced to pay nations for damages inflicted in a war which they themselves started." Blackbourne responds.

"I fail to see how one nation and its people must be held responsible for another nation dropping nuclear weapons on them."

"It's like war profiteering, except without the profit." Schultz chimes in. "Nobody should get money because they started a war. Prizes for finishing one, though..."

Blackbourne resumes before Schultz carries this conversation too far into space raider land. "I suggest that you reread your draft and make sure it does what you think it does, Ambassador Ogenbond."

"If you think this proposal would give nations money for waging war, perhaps you ought to reread my draft, and make sure it does what you think it does."

I originally objected to the reparations clauses for the reasons that Excidium Planetis is suggesting, and I can find no reason to object to them now. From what I can tell - if you are attacked, and you respond to that attack - then if you do not go out of your way to hit the civilian population of the country that attacked you, then you don't owe them anything.

(My original objection was pretty much what Excidium Planetis' was - I did not see why I should pay for the privilege of defending myself from an attack by another country. The draft, as it stands, no longer seems to require that of me or my nation).

[Excidium Planetis]

"We don't obliterate innocent civilians, we just don't believe it is right to be forced to pay nations for damages inflicted in a war which they themselves started." Blackbourne responds.

"I fail to see how one nation and its people must be held responsible for another nation dropping nuclear weapons on them."

"Then we suffer from an irreconcilable difference of opinion. In the opinion of the Excidian government, nations are directly responsible for the outcome of wars they start. To blame the defending nation for acting in self defense, and force the victims to pay the perpetrators of conflict, is morally wrong."

"If you think this proposal would give nations money for waging war, perhaps you ought to reread my draft, and make sure it does what you think it does."

"Very well." Blackbourne says, as he rereads the draft.

I originally objected to the reparations clauses for the reasons that Excidium Planetis is suggesting, and I can find no reason to object to them now. From what I can tell - if you are attacked, and you respond to that attack - then if you do not go out of your way to hit the civilian population of the country that attacked you, then you don't owe them anything.

(My original objection was pretty much what Excidium Planetis' was - I did not see why I should pay for the privilege of defending myself from an attack by another country. The draft, as it stands, no longer seems to require that of me or my nation).

"Reparations are only exempted if they fall under the permissions of Clause 2. This flaw is in the consideration of our government absolutely fatal to this proposal."