by AFT » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:34 am
by Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:07 am
by The Greater Siriusian Domain » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:46 am
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:48 am
by AFT » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:01 pm
The Greater Siriusian Domain wrote:May I ask what this proposal actually effectively does? All it seems to do is recommend that nations implement market protection for raw materials, and doesn't actually enforce or impose anything.
by AFT » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:08 pm
Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems wrote:"The Cheyenne and Arapaho systems require regular trade to sustain ourselves, since our own industrial base is limited to three industrial replicators. We do not desire invasive resource extraction on our planets, and instead mine only from the gas giants and asteroid belts of our third, uninhabited system. This creates some issues, as you can imagine, as we have only a few resources at our immediate disposal. Requiring we raise tariffs on inbound goods would make it difficult to procure medical supplies like Cordrazine or Inaprovaline, or building materials like transparent aluminum or archerite."
by Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:27 pm
AFT wrote:Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems wrote:"The Cheyenne and Arapaho systems require regular trade to sustain ourselves, since our own industrial base is limited to three industrial replicators. We do not desire invasive resource extraction on our planets, and instead mine only from the gas giants and asteroid belts of our third, uninhabited system. This creates some issues, as you can imagine, as we have only a few resources at our immediate disposal. Requiring we raise tariffs on inbound goods would make it difficult to procure medical supplies like Cordrazine or Inaprovaline, or building materials like transparent aluminum or archerite."
Hello! If I understand correctly, you are mining from uninhabited planets and asteroids? If that is the case, then I don't think that your operations would count as "imports" (since you are not trading with another nation) and is, thus, not subject to tariffs.
by AFT » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:52 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:This would do the opposite of industrialisation. In fact, it would make it harder for nations to pursue import-substitution industrialisation.
Take a nation. If the cost of raw materials increases and the cost of finished goods decreases, then it becomes comparatively more expensive to pursue manufacturing and less expensive to import things. This means that on a comparative level, the number of manufacturing industries inside a nation decreases.
by AFT » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:59 pm
Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems wrote:AFT wrote:
Hello! If I understand correctly, you are mining from uninhabited planets and asteroids? If that is the case, then I don't think that your operations would count as "imports" (since you are not trading with another nation) and is, thus, not subject to tariffs.
"We rely on trade for all other resources, which are many. We couldn't possibly support our population if we had to instate protectionist measures. We are a spiritual people, with no hunger for great wealth. Raising tariffs would drive away the trading partners we have."
by Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:09 pm
AFT wrote:Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems wrote:"We rely on trade for all other resources, which are many. We couldn't possibly support our population if we had to instate protectionist measures. We are a spiritual people, with no hunger for great wealth. Raising tariffs would drive away the trading partners we have."
May I ask what kind of resources are you talking about? Because if you are talking about food, medicine, medical equipment etc., then those are not covered by the proposal. The proposal is only for raw materials -- materials which are used for the sake of production, and never (or rarely) for private or domestic consumption
by Normlpeople » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:10 pm
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:33 pm
AFT wrote:For example, let's say that there is a certain raw material called X. The market price of X is $5.25 locally & $5.5 internationally. This being the case, it is logical to assume that the company who mines X, Company X would rather export its goods than to sell it locally. Now say this proposal gets approved and a tariff of $1 is imposed on the import of X (for the sake of simplicity, I will assume that the burden of the tariff is split evenly between the buyer and the seller). This tariff would then mean that if Company X exports its goods, it would get $5 (5.5 less 1/2), while if it sells it locally, it would get $5.25. Logically, Company X would rather sell its goods locally than to export it.
Now, in this scenario, we know that Company X is now selling its goods locally. But what happens now? Well, it is logical to assume that a local buyer bought X for the purpose of transforming it into an intermediate/final good (Since this transformation of raw to final is the only logical substitute to exporting the raw). Let's call this buyer Company A. By subjecting X through value-adding process/es, Company A is able to transform X into intermediate goods called A, is logically worth more than X (say $11 locally & internationally). From here, company A can choose to export the intermediate good (It doesn't matter which option it chooses. What matters was that it was able to add value to X by transforming it).
AFT wrote:Now, what are the effects of such a policy?
1. The major advantage of such a policy is that it will increase a nation's GDP:
Scenario 1 (w/o tariff):
GDP = Export = $5.5
Scenario 2 (w/tariff)
GDP = Raw Materials + Added Value from Transformation Process = $5.25 + $5.75 = $11
AFT wrote:While, of course, it is absurd to think that GDP will double simply from the implementation of this policy, it is safe to assume that GDP WILL increase because of the fact that the economy performed more value-adding processes
AFT wrote:2. Increase in Employment: This logically follows from the fact that more value-adding processes require more labor. (There is also the added bonus that an increase in employment would possibly create a multiplier effect in the economy)
by AFT » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:02 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:AFT wrote:For example, let's say that there is a certain raw material called X. The market price of X is $5.25 locally & $5.5 internationally. This being the case, it is logical to assume that the company who mines X, Company X would rather export its goods than to sell it locally. Now say this proposal gets approved and a tariff of $1 is imposed on the import of X (for the sake of simplicity, I will assume that the burden of the tariff is split evenly between the buyer and the seller). This tariff would then mean that if Company X exports its goods, it would get $5 (5.5 less 1/2), while if it sells it locally, it would get $5.25. Logically, Company X would rather sell its goods locally than to export it.
Now, in this scenario, we know that Company X is now selling its goods locally. But what happens now? Well, it is logical to assume that a local buyer bought X for the purpose of transforming it into an intermediate/final good (Since this transformation of raw to final is the only logical substitute to exporting the raw). Let's call this buyer Company A. By subjecting X through value-adding process/es, Company A is able to transform X into intermediate goods called A, is logically worth more than X (say $11 locally & internationally). From here, company A can choose to export the intermediate good (It doesn't matter which option it chooses. What matters was that it was able to add value to X by transforming it).
This isn't how tariffs work. Tariffs are a tax which is imposed on something after it has been made. If you have a price of 5.5 dollars, the tariff in a Foreign Country of 1 dollar would be applied on top of that 5.5 dollars, raising the internal price of that good to 6.5 dollars, which, given the relative elasticities of demand and supply of that good in the foreign nation, would lead to the exporting firm receiving 5.5 as MR anyway.AFT wrote:Now, what are the effects of such a policy?
1. The major advantage of such a policy is that it will increase a nation's GDP:
Scenario 1 (w/o tariff):
GDP = Export = $5.5
Scenario 2 (w/tariff)
GDP = Raw Materials + Added Value from Transformation Process = $5.25 + $5.75 = $11
You're calculating GDP wrong. A product method for calculating GDP would utilise the intermediate good (5.25, here) with the final value added, (5.75- 5.25), leading to a GDP calculation of 5.75. The raw materials do not count in GDP calculations because they are not final goods.AFT wrote:While, of course, it is absurd to think that GDP will double simply from the implementation of this policy, it is safe to assume that GDP WILL increase because of the fact that the economy performed more value-adding processes
Which it won't, because there will be less economic activity occurring when one increases tariffs on raw materials only. That simply makes it more expensive to import raw materials from abroad, whilst not doing anything to manufactured materials. Increased prices for importing raw materials would simply raise the costs for manufacturing firms.
There is an argument to be made about whether this would increase the relative price of imported manufactured goods, since it would lead to an increase in price level due to the higher costs of imported raw materials that leads to a relative cheapening of the price of imported manufactured goods.AFT wrote:2. Increase in Employment: This logically follows from the fact that more value-adding processes require more labor. (There is also the added bonus that an increase in employment would possibly create a multiplier effect in the economy)
1. The multiplier effect in an open economy is empirically measured to be somewhere around 0.7-0.9. It is only in old closed-econonomy models which have high multipliers.
2. That extra economic activity doesn't happen.
3. If we look at the Cobb-Douglas function, then Y = K^α ( A * L^(1-α) ). Increases in Y are not dependant on increases in L. Further capital accumulation can lead to growth of production.
Imperium Anglorum wrote: You're calculating GDP wrong. A product method for calculating GDP would utilise the intermediate good (5.25, here) with the final value added, (5.75- 5.25), leading to a GDP calculation of 5.75. The raw materials do not count in GDP calculations because they are not final goods.
Imperium Anglorum wrote:1. The multiplier effect in an open economy is empirically measured to be somewhere around 0.7-0.9. It is only in old closed-econonomy models which have high multipliers.
2. That extra economic activity doesn't happen.
3. If we look at the Cobb-Douglas function, then Y = K^α ( A * L^(1-α) ). Increases in Y are not dependant on increases in L. Further capital accumulation can lead to growth of production.
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:49 pm
AFT wrote:Huh? I disagree. Don't tariffs work like taxes? The only way that the price would rise to $6.5 and that the suppliers would carry the burden of the entire tax is if the demand is perfectly inelastic. I highly doubt that the demand curve is a vertical line. This being the case, the price of the good would increase by less than $1 & the price received would be less than $5.5
AFT wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote: You're calculating GDP wrong. A product method for calculating GDP would utilise the intermediate good (5.25, here) with the final value added, (5.75- 5.25), leading to a GDP calculation of 5.75. The raw materials do not count in GDP calculations because they are not final goods.
I disagree here as well. GDP must be 11 since the price of the intermediate good produced is 11. Also, there is a method of calculating GDP called the value-added approach which says that GDP = Raw Materials + Value added by process 1 + value added by process 2 and so on. Also, even if I use a different approach of calculating GDP, say the output approach (which computes GDP by summing the value of the sales of goods and subtracting the purchases of raw materials used to produce the goods sold), I would still get 11:
GDP = $5.25 (Raw Materials Sold by Company X) + 11 (Intermediate Goods Sold by Company A) - 5.25 (Raw Materials Bought by Company A from Company X) = $11
AFT wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:1. The multiplier effect in an open economy is empirically measured to be somewhere around 0.7-0.9. It is only in old closed-econonomy models which have high multipliers.
2. That extra economic activity doesn't happen.
3. If we look at the Cobb-Douglas function, then Y = K^α ( A * L^(1-α) ). Increases in Y are not dependant on increases in L. Further capital accumulation can lead to growth of production.
I concede that there is no multiplier effect that would take place. I forgot that the investment multiplier only worked in closed economies. On another note though, won't the increased production encourage the businesses to invest more on capital goods?
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:57 pm
by AFT » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:11 pm
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:19 pm
AFT wrote:My initial plan was to actually place a limit on the amount of exports of raw materials a countrycan make. This way, suppliers would be forced to selleithin the country, and thus, they would have to process it themselves.
AFT wrote:Or do you guys have any suggestions as to how I can accomplish my goal (which is to make sure that a nation would be the one to benefit the most from his/her natural resources and not other nations?)
by Normlpeople » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:21 pm
by Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:24 pm
Normlpeople wrote:"How would that be the case?" Clover asked "If we actively mine coal, and do not use it, why should we not sell it to those that do?"
AFT wrote:Hmmmm, okay. Thanks for your suggestions! Welp, back to the drawing board!
by Normlpeople » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:36 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Normlpeople wrote:"How would that be the case?" Clover asked "If we actively mine coal, and do not use it, why should we not sell it to those that do?"
What happens is that because you've got limited exports, the price of coal decreases. Decreasing the price of that good, in both perfect and imperfect competition, leads to coal miners going out of business. This harms your economy.
by The Greater Siriusian Domain » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:32 pm
AFT wrote:The Greater Siriusian Domain wrote:May I ask what this proposal actually effectively does? All it seems to do is recommend that nations implement market protection for raw materials, and doesn't actually enforce or impose anything.
Basically, I was hoping that the higher tariffs imposed on raw materials would encourage the suppliers of the said materials to sell their products locally rather than exporting them. By being able to keep the goods locally, we are able to transform them into intermediate/final goods, thus, adding value to them. Subjecting these raw materials to value-adding processes would logically yield a higher GDP* compared to if we simply exported the said materials.
**Note that one of the ways for computing GDP is through the value-added approach (GDP = Raw Materials + Added Value from Process 1 + Added Value from Process 2 and so on)
by Cheyenne and Arapaho Systems » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:06 am
Advertisement
Advertisement