[discussion] World Assembly Improvement Foundation

[States of Glory WA Office]

Because it implies more weight than it actually has? For an impressionable newbie, that would be a disaster if the advice given is less than perfect.

My telegram didn't offer advice. It asked for it, and Welcomed players to the GA. Assuming that Welcome had more weight than it did is a benefit, imo, because it makes players feel more included (?).

I was talking about your forum posts, not your Welcome telegram. In terms of the telegram, you're right in that using WAIF holds no extra weight, so I'd argue that it is therefore useless.

Also, I don't think it would be a disaster if I gave a new player bad advice and they valued it more than anyone else’s. What's the worst thing that could happen?

More people arguing that 'requests' and 'requires' are synonyms?

The regulars tried to address it, but Bitely didn't budge. I wasn't on the forum then, but I assume that some people here are experiencing a major case of deja vu.

I don't recall people calling for a rule banning such activity as Bitely's creation of the WSA. Also, Bitely actually did send out telegram campaigns as WSA, and I don't recall players insisting such activity be made illegal because new players could be misled.

It may have happened, however. There was a lot of outrage at that whole scenario.

That outrage is exactly what I'm talking about. The regulars were outraged when Bitely made that WSA region and the regulars were outraged when you made that WAIF nation.

Also, I believe that Bitely shouldn't have been allowed to do that, though I don't know what other people think.

Except you didn't tell everyone who you were

I made it pretty obvious who I was repeatedly in this thread (which was WAIF's debut) and in later threads. I told Ara who I was, and Ara proceeded to address EP in every single thread I posted in as WAIF. As was obvious from the response to Calladan's question, every regular already knew who WAIF was. How can I hide behind it if all my critics know who I am?

Not very obvious, considering that at least two regulars (Wallenburg and SL) had no idea who you were. By the looks of things, you have two options:

1) Carry on looking official, thereby deceiving newbies
2) Drop the 'official' act and reveal one of your other nations, making the WAIF puppet essentially useless.

[Separatist Peoples]

The WAIF thing needs to stop. An illusory position of power held by a player and not an actual authority isn't going to do anything but breed resentment among those who know better and confusion among those who don't. It isn't enough that the goal was worthy, it is enough that there was intent to impersonate authority wrongfully.

Use of the World Assembly logo and name with the intention of creating the impression of authority should be against the rules. WA Missions and the obvious jokes that have sprung up demonstrate, through neither impression nor use, an intention to fake authority. WAIF does.

I would even argue that the WA Law Review toes that line, but a law review is pretty well recognized as a kind of publication, and the WALR puppet never once exceeded that limit.

[Imperium Anglorum]

I would even argue that the WA Law Review toes that line, but a law review is pretty well recognized as a kind of publication, and the WALR puppet never once exceeded that limit.

Just a note: contrary to what people have claimed before, WALR has never used a WA flag. It has only used a flag that literally just says "WA Law Review".

[Separatist Peoples]

I would even argue that the WA Law Review toes that line, but a law review is pretty well recognized as a kind of publication, and the WALR puppet never once exceeded that limit.

Just a note: contrary to what people have claimed before, WALR has never used a WA flag. It has only used a flag that literally just says "WA Law Review".

WA Law Review sounds, to the unaware, like it has the authority to review laws. I know full well that it doesn't, not in the legal sense, and it isn't being used in that way, so there isn't any real risk of deception, unlike the WAIF. As I said, since the puppet never once tried to push any authority, its hard to consider it's actions deceptive.

[Gruenberg]

Although I (sort of) requested the mods look into this - I do somewhat disagree with the prevailing jihad against WAIF.

There is no rule against using undeclared puppets. So long as people don't multi, or sockpuppet in debates, it's not against any site rules. The desire to "out" puppets reflects an ugly tendency in the WA to put too much stock in who is making an argument or writing a proposal, and not the merits of what their argument is or the text of their proposal. Some users seem to generate incredible hostility to their proposals irrespective of their content, purely based on personal animosity. In the other thread I expressed my view that people should be able to RP views that don't align with their own personal views, and in that context, it shouldn't really matter whose puppets are whose.

As to using the flag, it's pretty mild, isn't it? Trying to look like a moderator would require a different color forum account name, or the use of red warntext; in a WA context, using those flashing lights gifs that they sometimes use when posting a ruling.

I don't really have an objection to anything the WAIF has done forumside. It's solely the telegram campaign I am concerned about, especially labeling it an "official welcome".

[Separatist Peoples]

Although I (sort of) requested the mods look into this - I do somewhat disagree with the prevailing jihad against WAIF.

There is no rule against using undeclared puppets. So long as people don't multi, or sockpuppet in debates, it's not against any site rules. The desire to "out" puppets reflects an ugly tendency in the WA to put too much stock in who is making an argument or writing a proposal, and not the merits of what their argument is or the text of their proposal. Some users seem to generate incredible hostility to their proposals irrespective of their content, purely based on personal animosity. In the other thread I expressed my view that people should be able to RP views that don't align with their own personal views, and in that context, it shouldn't really matter whose puppets are whose.

As to using the flag, it's pretty mild, isn't it? Trying to look like a moderator would require a different color forum account name, or the use of red warntext; in a WA context, using those flashing lights gifs that they sometimes use when posting a ruling.

I don't really have an objection to anything the WAIF has done forumside. It's solely the telegram campaign I am concerned about, especially labeling it an "official welcome".

Is that not what most of us have been talking about? Its what I was discussing.

And I think only Ara has a vendetta against puppets. I know I have several undeclared ones I use.

[Gruenberg]

Is that not what most of us have been talking about? Its what I was discussing.

It seemed like other people were taking issue with the forum posts, yes. If that's not the case, then obviously, ignore me.

[Separatist Peoples]

Is that not what most of us have been talking about? Its what I was discussing.

It seemed like other people were taking issue with the forum posts, yes. If that's not the case, then obviously, ignore me.

There certainly was plenty of confusion about WAIF's posts on the forum, but nothing quasi-official came of that. Yet. That said, I think its a generally good idea to prevent WA themed puppets that also attempt to evoke false authority in their design or actions. Not to kill off all puppets, or even make using the WA flag and WA name against the rules, but to weigh actions in a similar way that they weigh trolling or flaming: through context.

[Tinfect]

I don't recall people calling for a rule banning such activity as Bitely's creation of the WSA. Also, Bitely actually did send out telegram campaigns as WSA, and I don't recall players insisting such activity be made illegal because new players could be misled.

It may have happened, however. There was a lot of outrage at that whole scenario.

That outrage is exactly what I'm talking about. The regulars were outraged when Bitely made that WSA region and the regulars were outraged when you made that WAIF nation.

Also, I believe that Bitely shouldn't have been allowed to do that, though I don't know what other people think.

As someone who was there during, and, in the end, had quite the role, in the whole WSA Fiasco, it was less that it had the air of legitimacy, and more that Bitely, or, whoever it was controlling the region, if WSA wasn't one of his puppets, outright told people that it was real, and that they could then write up all those laws the WSA talked about, but never actually created. If I remember correctly, they even offered Stamp-Payments to people willing to take up positions in the Region. After that whole deal was revealed, they more or less admitted that they had no real power, and it more or less became Bitely's personal Voting Bloc and Nonsense Distribution Center, you can still find some of the TGs/WFE they sent/had if you trawl through the old WSA Resolution/Repeal threads.

Now, WAIF, is something of a different situation. As much as it really shouldn't be a thing that's happening, as far as I know, EP's never claimed legitimacy, and he'd probably deny it if anyone confused bothered to ask. Recently, he's even declared WAIF's status as a Puppet, if, in a way that hides its relation to his Main, which I personally don't have a problem with.

Now, about solving the problem. Something EP has done through WAIF is send out a Welcome Telegram like thing, which beyond being something that we really do need to have as some automatic thing, if we don't already, did actually try to do something constructive, in trying to get an answer from the recently-involved on why exactly they got involved, and what might be helpful in attracting new players, from the perspective of a new player, information that would undoubtedly be useful. In this sense, I think that EP's admission to attempting to use its seemingly-official status, not in any way to add weight to its arguments, but more to actually get people to respond, as people have a tendency to respond to things that look official, rather than something from some random jackass with some questions.

I'll leave it to you people whether or not he should've been doing that, but I don't think his intentions were any in way to give himself some more power in the GA, and that's something that quite a few of the people railing against his use of the WAIF puppet seem to be missing.

[Sciongrad]

It seemed like other people were taking issue with the forum posts, yes. If that's not the case, then obviously, ignore me.

There certainly was plenty of confusion about WAIF's posts on the forum, but nothing quasi-official came of that. Yet. That said, I think its a generally good idea to prevent WA themed puppets that also attempt to evoke false authority in their design or actions. Not to kill off all puppets, or even make using the WA flag and WA name against the rules, but to weigh actions in a similar way that they weigh trolling or flaming: through context.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think many of us have really been arguing against puppets generally, but WAIF in particular because of the authority it tries to assume by appropriating the WA flag and using an official sounding title.

[Imperium Anglorum]

Just a note: contrary to what people have claimed before, WALR has never used a WA flag. It has only used a flag that literally just says "WA Law Review".

WA Law Review sounds, to the unaware, like it has the authority to review laws. I know full well that it doesn't, not in the legal sense, and it isn't being used in that way, so there isn't any real risk of deception, unlike the WAIF. As I said, since the puppet never once tried to push any authority, its hard to consider it's actions deceptive.

I can see that — but then again, Law Review is a generic title for a publication which offers new thoughts on laws. It's not a body which conducts judicial review. What organisation would it be attached to otherwise?

[Separatist Peoples]

WA Law Review sounds, to the unaware, like it has the authority to review laws. I know full well that it doesn't, not in the legal sense, and it isn't being used in that way, so there isn't any real risk of deception, unlike the WAIF. As I said, since the puppet never once tried to push any authority, its hard to consider it's actions deceptive.

I can see that — but then again, Law Review is a generic title for a publication which offers new thoughts on laws. It's not a body which conducts judicial review. What organisation would it be attached to otherwise?

That's the point I'm ultimately making. If you used it to declare interpretations of law and not as a way to share essays and articles, it wouldn't be acceptable, and the potentially confusing name would push that into outright malicious. You don't.

[World Dissembly]

Would it be legal for me to create a puppet named World Assembly Trade Division (or Health/Environmental/Disarmament/Human Rights etc.), post a corresponding proposal and campaign for it? (Heck, I'd create another nation called "Trade Division" just so the WATD nation could simply be claimed a WA puppet of TD.)

If the only thing stopping such an underhanded attempt is a belief in educated voters or trusting that someone won't brazenly try such a thing, maybe we deserve to see what happens.

[Araraukar]

Some users seem to generate incredible hostility to their proposals irrespective of their content, purely based on personal animosity.

But RP'd animosity between the ambassador characters (everyone against SP's pair of bastards that overtook Bell's position for a while come to mind - forgotten the proper spelling of their names, sorry) still happens, though.

I'll leave it to you people whether or not he should've been doing that, but I don't think his intentions were any in way to give himself some more power in the GA, and that's something that quite a few of the people railing against his use of the WAIF puppet seem to be missing.

Except he actually said he was using it to appear to have authority over other people.

I don't think many of us have really been arguing against puppets generally, but WAIF in particular because of the authority it tries to assume by appropriating the WA flag and using an official sounding title.

Despite what people believe, I don't have a general vendetta against forum puppetry, but Scion very accurately gets the strong dislike I have towards the kind of puppetry that WAIF was used for.

---

Also I can't see the point why someone would make an undeclared puppet to debate in the GA when they already have a well-established presence here - puppets are created (all the time, it seems ) for various reasons, often jokes (like the WAIF-parodies or "Sapient [insert creature type here]" ones), but also for RP reasons (a certain detective in the Bar comes to mind), and those are obviously fine for that purpose.

My deeper dislike for people pretending to not be theirselves (and in NS context "people" means "accounts", as our nations are basically our usernames) is due to very personal reasons, which EP is privy to and would probably agree are fairly good reasons. If anyone else really needs to know for some reason, TG me. I'd rather not post it on the forum.

[Excidium Planetis]

I'll leave it to you people whether or not he should've been doing that, but I don't think his intentions were any in way to give himself some more power in the GA, and that's something that quite a few of the people railing against his use of the WAIF puppet seem to be missing.

Except he actually said he was using it to appear to have authority over other people.

Appear to have authority... not to actually have more authority. As Tinfect says here:

In this sense, I think that EP's admission to attempting to use its seemingly-official status, not in any way to add weight to its arguments, but more to actually get people to respond, as people have a tendency to respond to things that look official, rather than something from some random jackass with some questions.

The appearance of authority was to get people to take the telegram seriously. In this particular case, there were only 4 players and it kinda backfired with one of them. But I was dealing with a small group that already knew who EP was, so any effect WAIF had by not looking like "some random jackass with questions" is unnoticeable. But imagine sending out a invitation to GA participation to thousands of players (an idea I already floated around in this thread)... most of them would have no idea who EP was and wouldn't take it too seriously. But if WAIF is used, it looks like it has authority, and maybe a lot more people take the telegram seriously and decide to check out the GA.

This is exactly what I was going for by using WAIF. I saw what Auralia's use of the WA flag and name achieved and thought that it could be used in a constructive manner rather than to promote a resolution.

[Separatist Peoples]

Except he actually said he was using it to appear to have authority over other people.

Appear to have authority... not to actually have more authority. As Tinfect says here:

In this sense, I think that EP's admission to attempting to use its seemingly-official status, not in any way to add weight to its arguments, but more to actually get people to respond, as people have a tendency to respond to things that look official, rather than something from some random jackass with some questions.

The appearance of authority was to get people to take the telegram seriously. In this particular case, there were only 4 players and it kinda backfired with one of them. But I was dealing with a small group that already knew who EP was, so any effect WAIF had by not looking like "some random jackass with questions" is unnoticeable. But imagine sending out a invitation to GA participation to thousands of players (an idea I already floated around in this thread)... most of them would have no idea who EP was and wouldn't take it too seriously. But if WAIF is used, it looks like it has authority, and maybe a lot more people take the telegram seriously and decide to check out the GA.

This is exactly what I was going for by using WAIF. I saw what Auralia's use of the WA flag and name achieved and thought that it could be used in a constructive manner rather than to promote a resolution.

And that was bad. It really needs to be stamped out. By misrepresenting yourself to have authority you didn't have, you fraudulently obtained reliance of those players on your word. It doesn't matter the scope of what your advice was. Your intent was clearly to misrepresent your authority. That shouldn't be encouraged, by you or any future players.

It really isn't so much about what you did as the invitation it opens up to other players to take the same approach. The entire endeavor should be nipped in the bud.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

And that was bad. It really needs to be stamped out. By misrepresenting yourself to have authority you didn't have, you fraudulently obtained reliance of those players on your word. It doesn't matter the scope of what your advice was. Your intent was clearly to misrepresent your authority. That shouldn't be encouraged, by you or any future players.

It really isn't so much about what you did as the invitation it opens up to other players to take the same approach. The entire endeavor should be nipped in the bud.

Thank you. This. EP, I'm perfectly happy for you to keep doing exactly what you're doing, just not by resorting to identity inflation.

[Araraukar]

*snip*

Thank you. This. EP, I'm perfectly happy for you to keep doing exactly what you're doing, just not by resorting to identity inflation.

Seconded.

[Excidium Planetis]

And that was bad. It really needs to be stamped out.

Why?

By misrepresenting yourself to have authority you didn't have, you fraudulently obtained reliance of those players on your word. It doesn't matter the scope of what your advice was. Your intent was clearly to misrepresent your authority. That shouldn't be encouraged, by you or any future players.

I don't see any more effective alternative, other than actually having someone with authority send out telegrams. Unless Wrapper or some other mod volunteers to send out the telegrams, there isn't any other way to achieve the desired affect other than using the WA name and flag.

It really isn't so much about what you did as the invitation it opens up to other players to take the same approach.

Well, who would do that? Clearly, pretty much every regular is against the idea of using WA puppets to telegram in general, who would actually use a WA puppet for nefarious purposes?

Furthermore, this isn't the bud anymore. WA puppets have been used to deceive years before this, and in the case of the WSA, Bitely actually told people that the WSA had real WA sanctioned authority. Moderators in Auralia's time and even now have said that using WA puppets is not illegal. Anyone can do what I did, and has been able to do so for years, why is it now a concern?

[Separatist Peoples]

Why?

I explained that.

I don't see any more effective alternative, other than actually having someone with authority send out telegrams. Unless Wrapper or some other mod volunteers to send out the telegrams, there isn't any other way to achieve the desired affect other than using the WA name and flag.

Irrelevant. You misrepresented yourself as an authority. Unless you had the authority to speak with the voice of the World Assembly (or General Assembly, or the GA Forum community, take your pick) as a whole (you do not), you should not have represented yourself as having done so. The benefit, or lack thereof, derived from that action is completely irrelevant.

Well, who would do that? Clearly, pretty much every regular is against the idea of using WA puppets to telegram in general, who would actually use a WA puppet for nefarious purposes?

Any player who, upon seeing the lack of consequence, wants to take advantage of the lack of punitive action. Any player who as yet to share their position and might not agree with the majority of respondents. Any player who is new enough to see this discussion but not so new as to find themselves in lockstep with the majority. Do I need to go on?

Furthermore, this isn't the bud anymore. WA puppets have been used to deceive years before this, and in the case of the WSA, Bitely actually told people that the WSA had real WA sanctioned authority. Moderators in Auralia's time and even now have said that using WA puppets is not illegal. Anyone can do what I did, and has been able to do so for years, why is it now a concern?

It was wrong that Bitely did so. It was also wrong that Auralia used the WA Charter Group in the way he did. In both cases, there as a significant misrepresentation that convinced players wrongfully. It isn't against the rules, but it should be, which is my point.

[Gruenberg]

I'm perfectly happy for you to keep doing exactly what you're doing, just not by resorting to identity inflation.

Why, though? Irrespective of which account sends the telegram, why send the telegram at all? It's a browser game, not a cult.

[States of Glory WA Office]

And that was bad. It really needs to be stamped out. By misrepresenting yourself to have authority you didn't have, you fraudulently obtained reliance of those players on your word. It doesn't matter the scope of what your advice was. Your intent was clearly to misrepresent your authority. That shouldn't be encouraged, by you or any future players.

It really isn't so much about what you did as the invitation it opens up to other players to take the same approach. The entire endeavor should be nipped in the bud.

Thank you. This. EP, I'm perfectly happy for you to keep doing exactly what you're doing, just not by resorting to identity inflation.

In case my position wasn't clear enough, I have no problem with the contents of the telegram (apart from the word 'official'). I wouldn't have responded to it if I thought that it was a rubbish telegram, or at the very least I wouldn't have cooperated. I think that it's a great TG to send to newbies and I highly encourage EP to carry on sending it. I just wish that he'd use his main nation.

In this particular case, there were only 4 players and it kinda backfired with one of them.

Are you referring to me or Calladan? Let's be honest, it backfired with both of us.

I'm perfectly happy for you to keep doing exactly what you're doing, just not by resorting to identity inflation.

Why, though? Irrespective of which account sends the telegram, why send the telegram at all? It's a browser game, not a cult.

It's a helpful tool for both newbies and regulars. Haven't we been constantly complaining about the lack of activity here?

[Gruenberg]

It's a helpful tool for both newbies and regulars.

To me it comes off like he's trying to sell a MLM scheme.

Haven't we been constantly complaining about the lack of activity here?

Well fire up the time machine and go back seven years, but in the absence of that, spamming new players with links isn't going to do much. This has always been a pretty niche part of the game.

[Umeria]

Are you referring to me or Calladan? Let's be honest, it backfired with both of us.

It backfired with me as well. I had thought that 4 months of drafting a proposal would convince the regulars that I know what the rules are, but it appears I still have a ways to go...

[Separatist Peoples]

Are you referring to me or Calladan? Let's be honest, it backfired with both of us.

It backfired with me as well. I had thought that 4 months of drafting a proposal would convince the regulars that I know what the rules are, but it appears I still have a ways to go...

You spent four months drafting one relatively small section of policy. You participated only a little in other debates on other fields. There are vast areas of policy left to learn. And I don't say that to suggest that you have been inadequate in your efforts. Quite the opposite, I say that to encourage you to engage in other interesting areas. The sheer breadth of topics and the nigh-infinite combination of procedural rule applications makes for an extremely fun mental exercise that changes almost daily.

Don't feel bad. Take it as an opportunity to explore even more.