[DEFEATED] Cluster Munitions Accord

[Imperium Anglorum]

Current rule set says that committees, once founded, always exist.

OOC: They changed it? When?

Oh never mind. You're right. Technically, it ceases to exist. But it can always be resurrected. It should be 'permanent existence'. It would yield a compelling RP reason to make less committees. I'd take the radical view of Knoot on the subject. Get rid of committees.

[The Silver Sentinel]

So basically, a nation lays cluster mines in Testnation. Their army is defeated in Testnation and they retreat. However ... somehow, their nation's military/personnel/someone needs to get back into Testnation to remove/deactivate the cluster munitions?

... That seems problematic.

I'm not sure how to resolve it (requiring the nation that didn't plant them to defuse them seems dangerous), but perhaps there's some sort of committee that could be deployed?

No one is talking about laying mines Mouse. A cluster munition is not a mine laying device. They are designed to disperse bomblets over an area.

[Separatist Peoples]

So basically, a nation lays cluster mines in Testnation. Their army is defeated in Testnation and they retreat. However ... somehow, their nation's military/personnel/someone needs to get back into Testnation to remove/deactivate the cluster munitions?

... That seems problematic.

I'm not sure how to resolve it (requiring the nation that didn't plant them to defuse them seems dangerous), but perhaps there's some sort of committee that could be deployed?

No one is talking about laying mines Mouse. A cluster munition is not a mine laying device. They are designed to disperse bomblets over an area.

OOC: Many cluster bomblets are designed, IRL, to persist, which effectively makes them mines. Fortunately, the Lumpy Space Princess (I am never referring to my proposal in regular terms again, now that I've noticed that!) covers such munitions, so any overlap between the two weapon systems is good and covered.

[Hobbesistan]

enjoy your berning (pun intended) fresh hot 3rd draft.

Cluster Munitions Accord
by hobbes(istan)

Category: Global Disarmament
Strength: Mild

RECOGNIZING that unexploded, improperly placed, and intentionally disruptive cluster munitions injure, maim, and kill thousands of civilians yearly,

BELIEVING that action by the World Assembly is necessary to protect innocent civilians and combatants alike,

HOWEVER REAFFIRMING the right of nations, World Assembly or not, to defend themselves,

ACKNOWLEDGING that a large amount of unexploded ordnance after a conflict are cluster munitions,

DEFINING,

1) 'Cluster Munition' as any air, ground, or sea launched conventional explosive device that splits into smaller explosive submunitions,

2) 'Cluster Munition Delivery Device/Mechanism' as a device/mechanism designed to deliver cluster munitions to a target.

3) 'Dud / Dud Percentage' as a ordnance that fails to act as intended / detonate as designed, such as failing to explode upon hitting the ground in the case of a conventional bomb, and Dud Percentage as the percentage, per cluster munition dropped, of duds in a batch of dropped munitions.

ENACTING,

1) Cluster Munitions shall be required to maintain some form of time-delay failsafe, such as a timer, that either sets off the device or renders itself inert in lack of the device performing its intended purpose

2) Cluster Munitions shall be required to maintain a dud rate no higher than 5% per dropped device.

3) Member States shall not possess, stockpile, purchase, sell, or otherwise involve the affairs of cluster munitions that do not meet the aforementioned standards set forth by this body.

4) Tasks the World Assembly Demining Agency with overseeing the safe removal and destruction of unexploded and inert cluster munitions left after a conflict

[We Couldnt Agree On A Name]

So basically, a nation lays cluster mines in Testnation. Their army is defeated in Testnation and they retreat. However ... somehow, their nation's military/personnel/someone needs to get back into Testnation to remove/deactivate the cluster munitions?

... That seems problematic.

I'm not sure how to resolve it (requiring the nation that didn't plant them to defuse them seems dangerous), but perhaps there's some sort of committee that could be deployed?

No one is talking about laying mines Mouse. A cluster munition is not a mine laying device. They are designed to disperse bomblets over an area.

on the contrary mine laying is a common role for cluster munitions. They are the goto for aerial minelaying, for obvious reasons.

[Separatist Peoples]

enjoy your berning (pun intended) fresh hot 3rd draft.

OOC: And with that terrible pun, my decision is made. We can't avoid it in General, but the GA shouldn't have US presidential politics dragged into it so overtly.

[Bears Armed]

EDIT: I think the resolution that originally created WASP was repealed, but the committee has been used in so many others that it still exists?

OOC; No, the resolution that created WASP is still in force, it's just two or so of the other resolutions which then used it that have been repealed.

[We Couldnt Agree On A Name]

EDIT: I think the resolution that originally created WASP was repealed, but the committee has been used in so many others that it still exists?

OOC; No, the resolution that created WASP is still in force, it's just two or so of the other resolutions which then used it that have been repealed.

That's weird. The committee list I got it from lists a repealed resolution as the one that founded it.

[Wrapper]

OOC; No, the resolution that created WASP is still in force, it's just two or so of the other resolutions which then used it that have been repealed.

That's weird. The committee list I got it from lists a repealed resolution as the one that founded it.

Looks like the list is incorrect, GAR#87 established WASP and is still in effect.

[We Couldnt Agree On A Name]

Wait, why are we talking about WASP?

[Hobbesistan]

Outside of banter about WASP, any other serious things to note about this before it's fed to the lions?

[Araraukar]

Outside of banter about WASP, any other serious things to note about this before it's fed to the lions?

This:

No one is talking about laying mines Mouse. A cluster munition is not a mine laying device. They are designed to disperse bomblets over an area.

on the contrary mine laying is a common role for cluster munitions. They are the goto for aerial minelaying, for obvious reasons.

Looks to me like that makes this proposal duplicate the Landmine Safety Protocol too much to not be illegal.

[Hobbesistan]

Outside of banter about WASP, any other serious things to note about this before it's fed to the lions?

This:

on the contrary mine laying is a common role for cluster munitions. They are the goto for aerial minelaying, for obvious reasons.

Looks to me like that makes this proposal duplicate the Landmine Safety Protocol too much to not be illegal.

On the contrary, the proposal discusses everything used within the context of cluster munitions, including airborne mine-laying. Specifically excempting airborne mines would be contentious and would make this entire resolution redundant should LSP get repealed (i.e House of Cards). This resolution stands on its own with or without LSP which is why I feel duplication is not invoked, but i'll wait for the almighty GA overlords I suppose.

[Araraukar]

Specifically excempting airborne mines would be stupid and would make this entire resolution redundant should LSP get repealed (i.e House of Cards)

But right now it's duplicating it far too much to slide under the gate of "slight duplication". Couldn't you change your definitions to exclude ammo that's meant to lay dormant until triggered (aka mines)?

i'll wait for the almighty GA overlords I suppose.

Does that mean you contacted the Secretariat with a legality question yourself?

[Hobbesistan]

Specifically excempting airborne mines would be stupid and would make this entire resolution redundant should LSP get repealed (i.e House of Cards)

But right now it's duplicating it far too much to slide under the gate of "slight duplication". Couldn't you change your definitions to exclude ammo that's meant to lay dormant until triggered (aka mines)?

Not easilly, as It's worth mentioning a few things.

1) LSP never covers duds, which is a large risk factor to any cluster munitions, mines or not. (Further worth noting dud munitions can include a failure of the safety mechanisms, i.e delayed detonation. None of this is ever covered by LSP and it's a large concern for any cluster munitions)

2) It's been more than mentioned here this resolution is targeted at the delivery mechanism that is cluster bombs, regardless of the munitions being used as bomblets. There's nothing stopping you from tossing mines directly out the back of a plane but mines, as with any other form of submunition, would be applicable of they are released out of a cluster bomb. To better understand this, here's a quick graphic on how a cluster bomb works:



What's being regulated here is the bomb itself and the bomblets, regardless and indifferent to what is placed inside of the bomblets. There's nothing stopping you, as mentioned, from litterally tossing mines out of the back of a plane. The resolution is only invoked when a cluster bomb is used.


Could I specifically exempt mines? Probably, but i'll wait for the ruling to see if i've skirted LSP enough.

[Wrapper]

Could I specifically exempt mines? Probably, but i'll wait for the ruling to see if i've skirted LSP enough.

OOC: The way I read this, you shouldn't have to exempt mine delivery. Based on your analysis there might be some "minor overlap" -- which is perfectly legal -- between this proposal and LSP, but I'm not seeing any duplication. Nothing in LSP, as far as I can see, places any regulation on the method of delivery.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: part of the problem here is probably that many bomblet munitions players are familiar with tend to operate as mines after deployed, like the Soviet munitions in Afghanistan that were infamous for killing and maiming children. I don't know if a clarification in the text will resolve this, but it is probably where the confusion stems from.

[Crimetopolis]

Crimetopolis opposes this measure.

[Hobbesistan]

Could I specifically exempt mines? Probably, but i'll wait for the ruling to see if i've skirted LSP enough.

OOC: The way I read this, you shouldn't have to exempt mine delivery. Based on your analysis there might be some "minor overlap" -- which is perfectly legal -- between this proposal and LSP, but I'm not seeing any duplication. Nothing in LSP, as far as I can see, places any regulation on the method of delivery.

OOC: That's my viewpoint as well, but I don't know if the mods want to make formal clarification/ruling.

[Separatist Peoples]

4) Tasks the World Assembly Demining Agency with overseeing the safe removal and destruction of unexploded and inert cluster munitions left after a conflict

"Duplicates the duties of ERWAS in ERW."

[Hobbesistan]

4) Tasks the World Assembly Demining Agency with overseeing the safe removal and destruction of unexploded and inert cluster munitions left after a conflict

"Duplicates the duties of ERWAS in ERW."

"Just saw that passed. I'll adjust accordingly."

[Hobbesistan]

now without explosive removal:

Cluster Munitions Accord
by hobbes(istan)

Category: Global Disarmament
Strength: Mild

RECOGNIZING that unexploded, improperly placed, and intentionally disruptive cluster munitions injure, maim, and kill thousands of civilians yearly,

BELIEVING that action by the World Assembly is necessary to protect innocent civilians and combatants alike,

HOWEVER REAFFIRMING the right of nations, World Assembly or not, to defend themselves,

ACKNOWLEDGING that a large amount of unexploded ordnance after a conflict are cluster munitions,

DEFINING,

1) 'Cluster Munition' as any air, ground, or sea launched conventional explosive device that splits into smaller explosive submunitions,

2) 'Cluster Munition Delivery Device/Mechanism' as a device/mechanism designed to deliver cluster munitions to a target.

3) 'Dud / Dud Percentage' as a ordnance that fails to act as intended / detonate as designed, such as failing to explode upon hitting the ground in the case of a conventional bomb, and Dud Percentage as the percentage, per cluster munition dropped, of duds in a batch of dropped munitions.

ENACTING,

1) Cluster Munitions shall be required to maintain some form of time-delay failsafe, such as a timer, that either sets off the device or renders itself inert in lack of the device performing its intended purpose

2) Cluster Munitions shall be required to maintain a dud rate no higher than 5% per dropped device.

3) Member States shall not possess, stockpile, purchase, sell, or otherwise involve the affairs of cluster munitions that do not meet the aforementioned standards set forth by this body.

Anything else before I feed this to the hounds, gang?

[Wallenburg]

One could make the argument that this has no operative clause, since it has no "The World Assembly...hereby" in it.

[The Silver Sentinel]

One could make the argument that this has no operative clause, since it has no "The World Assembly...hereby" in it.

Bullshit.

[We Couldnt Agree On A Name]

One could make the argument that this has no operative clause, since it has no "The World Assembly...hereby" in it.

One could also make the argument that Elk are made of sour cream.