[discussion] Is it time to put S&I out to pasture?

[Separatist Peoples]

Makes using puppets to submit totally impractical, which is an issue for some raider-types. And as nice as it would be for new players to have to wait, it isn't especially fair.

I'm pretty sure most Raiders have a puppet at least a hundred days old. Most raiders I've seen have dozens of puppets they keep alive.

I'm positive you speak for all raiders and all individuals who feel the need to submit via puppet. It's an unfair restriction and unnecessary. The proposals don't pass. The violators are dinged. World keeps on turning.

[Normlpeople]

I still do, if I feel the player will be receptive. A better solution would be to simply ban nations from making proposals until the capital city age. Wouldn't completely elimintate the issue but would reduce it.

Makes using puppets to submit totally impractical, which is an issue for some raider-types. And as nice as it would be for new players to have to wait, it isn't especially fair.

Perhaps. Then again, that's more of a technical conversation anyhow.

[Excidium Planetis]

I'm pretty sure most Raiders have a puppet at least a hundred days old. Most raiders I've seen have dozens of puppets they keep alive.

I'm positive you speak for all raiders

Of course I do. Don't you know I am the ultimate authority on all raiding activities ever?[/sarcasm]

and all individuals who feel the need to submit via puppet.

If they feel the need to submit via puppet, they should have made a puppet 35-60 days earlier and kept it alive via vacation mode. It isn't that difficult.

It's an unfair restriction

How so? It affects all players equally. How is that unfair?

and unnecessary. The proposals don't pass. The violators are dinged. World keeps on turning.

Unnecessary? Perhaps.
But it would cut down on the illegal proposals.

[Separatist Peoples]

I'm positive you speak for all raiders

Of course I do. Don't you know I am the ultimate authority on all raiding activities ever?[/sarcasm]

and all individuals who feel the need to submit via puppet.

If they feel the need to submit via puppet, they should have made a puppet 35-60 days earlier and kept it alive via vacation mode. It isn't that difficult.

It's an unfair restriction

How so? It affects all players equally. How is that unfair?

and unnecessary. The proposals don't pass. The violators are dinged. World keeps on turning.

Unnecessary? Perhaps.
But it would cut down on the illegal proposals.

Makes using puppets to submit totally impractical, which is an issue for some raider-types. And as nice as it would be for new players to have to wait, it isn't especially fair.

Perhaps. Then again, that's more of a technical conversation anyhow.

Shredding this idea is something that belongs in Technical.

[Ekhtsasy]

Threads are not replaced until they hit 500 pages

thanks

[Wallenburg]

Threads are not replaced until they hit 500 pages

thanks

And Silly/Illegal is reaching that number.

[Kaboomlandia]

Threads are not replaced until they hit 500 pages

thanks

S&I has gotten a fair bit of...snarkiness in the past, and I've seen some rumblings of junking it.

[Grays Harbor]

Threads are not replaced until they hit 500 pages

thanks

S&I has gotten a fair bit of...snarkiness in the past, and I've seen some rumblings of junking it.

So? Not everybody goes into apoplectic fits or require trauma counselling due to a little snark.

The purpose of S&I is to have a place to put, as the title suggests, Silly and/or Illegal proposals without having to start a new thread for every damned one of them. Which would clog up the GA.

[Wrapper]

Threads are not replaced until they hit 500 pages

thanks

S&I has gotten a fair bit of...snarkiness in the past, and I've seen some rumblings of junking it.

Anyone bothered by such snark can just avoid the thread.

[Separatist Peoples]

Threads are not replaced until they hit 500 pages

thanks

S&I has gotten a fair bit of...snarkiness in the past, and I've seen some rumblings of junking it.

Gruen and maybe UFoC had something to say. That was about it. That hardly constitutes "rumblings of junking it".

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

The thread is fine. There's no reason to drop it - but maybe it's time we set a few ground rules for posting? Such as: stop calling everything bloody stupid, stop calling every repeal "NatSov," try adding some (brief) color commentary on the cited proposals to make reading the topic more interesting, rather than just C&P-ing proposals and naming the rule(s) they break, etc., etc. The thread itself isn't toxic or poisonous; it's the attitude of some of those who use it that makes it bad.

It is nothing more than a point and laugh festival, that greatly contributes to the never ending hostility of this particular forum.

This particular forum?! Have you ever visited General?

It serves at least one purpose: notifying the mods easily.

Because they don't have access to the proposals list like the rest of us plebes? Good to know we actually have one up on them.

There's such a thing as crowd-sourcing, you know. That's partly why the GHR form and the Moderation forum exist: because the mods are unpaid, human volunteers and don't really have the time to sift through everything to find infractions. They need vigilant players to point them in the right direction at times.

Of course, the mods have had to remind players that the S&I thread itself is not a GHR form, but still.

[Frisbeeteria]

There's such a thing as crowd-sourcing, you know.

This captures the value of this discussion better than anything I could have said. You GA regulars tend to spend hours each day/week/month totally focused on this forum and the GA rules, and most of you are probably better at rules analysis than most of the mods. I bounce back and forth between answering player questions, removing forum spammers, gameside harassment complaints, routine but time consuming back-office maintenance, WA cheater analysis, scanning lists of new nations for TOS violations, and a dozen or more additional tasks. Having somebody else spending the time recording the uncontroversial errors gives me back time for my many other duties, and I truly appreciate it.

When the identified problems are subtle, controversial, or time-sensitive; a GHR is the appropriate venue. The vast majority of S&I proposals are none of those things. It makes no practical difference if we remove them now or 3 days from now. That makes this thread a convenient place to pick up some easy mod work during slack times.

I have sometimes TG'd newbie proposalists with directions on what to do rather than jump right into proposal writing, and Silly/Illegal is one of the threads I suggest checking out.

I'd certainly welcome more direct player communications with new players, much as the RP Mentors do in the Diplomacy forums. Mods only have time to send out slightly modified boilerplate telegrams about failed proposals. If someone takes the time to send personalized commentary, it would probably have more impact.

[Ferret Civilization]

All it does it serve to boost the ego's of certain people. Does anyone that posts in that thread actually telegram authors and point out the mistake to them? We all know that the boiler plate that the mods send when they yank a proposal sure as the hell doesn't, so no it is not a learning tool. It is nothing more than a point and laugh festival, that greatly contributes to the never ending hostility of this particular forum.

Well, at least now that first part has changed a bit. And thinking about it, I've learned a lot from it... It gives a nice place (Even though most of it is snark, at least it shows what to avoid to piss off all you experienced ones off if someone wants to really make a proposal) for new people like me that want to really learn since I lack the experience of, everyone else here. And digging through all the old threads doesn't really give as much to learn off of since most of it's edited, deleted, moved, etc.

[Kryozerkia]

Seeing as the Silly/Illegal proposals thread is at 473 pages, I thought I'd bring this up. Do we still need this thread?

I'd like to see it kept, as it can be a good teaching tool on the rules. But that's just me.

Thoughts?

There will be another iteration. Same ground rules. I will keep my eye out and immortalize the current iteration when it reaches is peak of 500 pages.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

There will be another iteration. Same ground rules. I will keep my eye out and immortalize the current iteration when it reaches is peak of 500 pages.

Is this 500-page thing the rule for all forums or just General/F7? I've never heard it before. Not sure if the GA has ever had a 500-page thread before, either.

[Kryozerkia]

There will be another iteration. Same ground rules. I will keep my eye out and immortalize the current iteration when it reaches is peak of 500 pages.

Is this 500-page thing the rule for all forums or just General/F7? I've never heard it before. Not sure if the GA has ever had a 500-page thread before, either.

It did start out primarily for F7 but it's now applied on all forums. It's uncommon outside of F7 and NSG but not unheard of. The practice has been applied to International Incidents.

[Frisbeeteria]

Is this 500-page thing the rule for all forums or just General/F7?

All forums. It has to do with the forum SQL database indexing. Longer threads cause a massive uptick in indexing time, so we set an arbitrary limit of 500 pages, which is still short enough to not affect the CPU timing.

Not sure if the GA has ever had a 500-page thread before, either.

The Strangers Bar is the only one that comes remotely close.

[Bears Armed]

Is this 500-page thing the rule for all forums or just General/F7? I've never heard it before. Not sure if the GA has ever had a 500-page thread before, either.

It did start out primarily for F7 but it's now applied on all forums. It's uncommon outside of F7 and NSG but not unheard of. The practice has been applied to International Incidents.

Also in NS Sports, for the NS [Association Football] World Cup discussion thread...