[Discontinued] Right to Bear Arms 2.0

[Alvisiror]

"And what would you have us provide them with? Decade-Old Technology? That would still provide them access to fully-capable Military Grade hardware. And that still does not address the issue to Criminals obtaining weapons. This law would still make it several hundred times easier to obtain weaponry, with comparatively little risk to our current state. I am not sure how things go in your Nation, but the Imperium has had only one Firearm related crime in the last decade. This proposal would cause such crimes to take place with alarming regularity."

Gun crime is practically non-existent in our nation since people have been taught about the safe uses of firearms. Our nation is ranked in the top 5% for both safety and safety from crime in the multiverse.
The bill mandates that background checks and psychiatric evaluations be performed before giving someone a firearm. It is the right of every sane individual to own a firearm. We do not hand out firearms to mentally ill or potentially violent people. Please read over the bill again as you seem to have a misunderstanding of it.

[Excidium Planetis]

How about "a weapon which either A) launches a projectile through chemical energy or magnetic force or B) fires directed energy"

That should cover all "guns" and rockets as well as railguns, coilguns, and directed energy weapons.

Thanks the second draft has been posted using the first suggested change

Except you forgot directed energy weapons. I'm not opposed to allowing our citizens unrestricted access to laser cannons, but perhaps you want to address that in your proposal?

[The Novakian Empire]

But that would make it so we cant opress our people!
Just kidding,What the fuck are a bunch of people with guns going to do against a bloody army? With tanks and jets?

[Tinfect]

Gun crime is practically non-existent in our nation since people have been taught about the safe uses of firearms. Our nation is ranked in the top 5% for both safety and safety from crime in the multiverse.

"Well that's good for you, isn't it? Your nation, has, somehow, managed to avoid Firearm-Related crime because you have a decent educational system. Great, I'm happy for you. But, as it happens, in the Imperium, we use our Educational System for Academic pursuits. Not teaching people how to utilize lethal weaponry that they have no right to be anywhere near.

The bill mandates that background checks and psychiatric evaluations be performed before giving someone a firearm.

"And? So what? It just means that in the best case, a "Sane" Individual is now capable of going on a murdering rampage, or start firing on Internal Security Personnel, or otherwise threaten the Peace of the Imperium. We do not need Civilians waving about lethal weapons. I do not see why this is so hard to understand."

It is the right of every sane individual to own a firearm. We do not hand out firearms to mentally ill or potentially violent people.

"Perhaps it is in the Alvisiror, but in the Imperium, the Citizenry has no right to own, carry, trade, purchase, use, or otherwise be anywhere near Lethal Weaponry. Mentally Ill people, criminals, or those with violent tendencies will inevitably obtain these weapons, and the legal industry will create an unregulated black market of weapons. We have dealt with such insanity before, and it lead to the total destruction of civilization, and, incidentally, the rise of the Imperium."

[Alvisiror]

Except you forgot directed energy weapons. I'm not opposed to allowing our citizens unrestricted access to laser cannons, but perhaps you want to address that in your proposal?

OOC:Fixed. If there are any other changes you would propose which would make this bill more likely to pass I am open to suggestions.

[Alvisiror]

"Well that's good for you, isn't it? Your nation, has, somehow, managed to avoid Firearm-Related crime because you have a decent educational system. Great, I'm happy for you. But, as it happens, in the Imperium, we use our Educational System for Academic pursuits. Not teaching people how to utilize lethal weaponry that they have no right to be anywhere near.


"And? So what? It just means that in the best case, a "Sane" Individual is now capable of going on a murdering rampage, or start firing on Internal Security Personnel, or otherwise threaten the Peace of the Imperium. We do not need Civilians waving about lethal weapons. I do not see why this is so hard to understand."


"Perhaps it is in the Alvisiror, but in the Imperium, the Citizenry has no right to own, carry, trade, purchase, use, or otherwise be anywhere near Lethal Weaponry. Mentally Ill people, criminals, or those with violent tendencies will inevitably obtain these weapons, and the legal industry will create an unregulated black market of weapons. We have dealt with such insanity before, and it lead to the total destruction of civilization, and, incidentally, the rise of the Imperium."

It is taught at an early age by professional gun instructors. This is merely one of many courses in the schools of Alvisiror which is mandatory for study. Others include: Science, Math, English, French, Russian (our official languages).

A sane individual by definition would not go out murdering people.

If your nation is incapable of dealing with the proposed changes we are willing to send advisers to help make the transition as smooth as possible.

[Tinfect]

It is taught at an early age by professional gun instructors. This is merely one of many courses in the schools of Alvisiror which is mandatory for study. Others include: Science, Math, English, French, Russian (our official languages).

"Irrelevant. We see no reason to waste Educational Funds teaching citizens how to use weaponry, when they should not be anywhere near it. Get that through your skull."

A sane individual by definition would not go out murdering people.

"The individual could simply be unhappy with the state of the Government, have some extreme ideals, or perhaps is extremely religious. He would be perfectly sane, but fully capable of committing criminal actions."

If your nation is incapable of dealing with the proposed changes we are willing to send advisers to help make the transition as smooth as possible.

"This, Ambassador, does not even touch on my arguments. First of all, Such changes would throw the Internal Security Policies we have been running since the inception of the Imperium out the window, opening up wholly new avenues of Crime, that can be exploited with little effort by Criminals. And as for your offer of assistance, the Imperium is offended that you would think our Internal Security so incompetent as to be unable to deal with the changes.

Please respond to my arguments, rather than assuming that you know the State of the Imperium."


OOC:
Huge international Faux Pas, there. Do not offer assistance to another nation, without it being requested, Especially if they are not an Ally, It will be taken as the insult it is.

[Imperium Anglorum]

Huge international Faux Pas, there. Do not offer assistance to another nation, without it being requested, Especially if they are not an Ally, It will be taken as the insult it is.

Parsons, fresh returned from a parade displaying the veterans of the gloriously conducted and honourably won War in Cambigta (which he was required to attend as former Foreign Secretary), muses, 'Perhaps we will be able to "help" this Alvisiror reform its government in a particularly fast and violent manner with our large and powerful armies. Remember, the Empire cares. We stand on guard for thee'. He then stops and says, 'but maybe you don't need our help, in the same way our friends in Tinfect don't need your help and in the same way the Empire doesn't need it either'.

Sarcasm. It's all sarcasm.

[Excidium Planetis]

"Perhaps it is in the Alvisiror, but in the Imperium, the Citizenry has no right to own, carry, trade, purchase, use, or otherwise be anywhere near Lethal Weaponry. Mentally Ill people, criminals, or those with violent tendencies will inevitably obtain these weapons, and the legal industry will create an unregulated black market of weapons. We have dealt with such insanity before, and it lead to the total destruction of civilization, and, incidentally, the rise of the Imperium."

Does your nation prevent its citizens from being anywhere near kitchen knives? Lethal Weapons those things are, they account for nearly 5% of all murders in our nation.

What about baseball bats? A weapon in a psychopath's hands. They don't comprise a large portion of murders in our nation, but that's mostly because we don't play baseball, and therefore don't sell baseball bats.

What about cars? 3.8% of all murders in our nation are by automobiles. I suppose you won't let your citizens anywhere near those, either.

And of course, rocks must be banned. Our historical records show that ancient Terrans used rocks as weapons of war for thousands of years. Luckily, we live on sterile space ships, so rock related murders are mostly relegated to miners. About 0.03% of all murders annually.

Let's see... any other weapons we should ban?
...pieces of cloth perhaps: they can be used as slings or to choke someone out. Or maybe replica swords? Those LARP people... you never know when they'll decide to start bashing someone's head in. Bricks too, thrown through glass windows they can be a fearsome weapon in the hands of any psychopath.

And alcohol! We mustn't let those rebels use Molotov cocktails to raze the cities! Alcohol must be banned, and cigarette lighters too! No matches, no gasoline, the favored weapons of arsonists everywhere. Arsonists accounts for 25.6% of all convicted murderers in our nation.

[Tinfect]

Does your nation prevent its citizens from being anywhere near kitchen knives? Lethal Weapons those things are, they account for nearly 5% of all murders in our nation.

"Really. Are we resorting to this now? If they account for 5% of all murders in your Nation, good for you. A Kitchen knife is a far sight from a Firearm capable of flinging death across long ranges."

What about baseball bats? A weapon in a psychopath's hands. They don't comprise a large portion of murders in our nation, but that's mostly because we don't play baseball, and therefore don't sell baseball bats.

"I'm not entirely certain what this "Baseball" thing is, Ambassador. Or how exactly one would go about killing someone with an airborne mammal."

What about cars? 3.8% of all murders in our nation are by automobiles. I suppose you won't let your citizens anywhere near those, either.

"Personal Transportation is an entirely different thing from a dedicated piece of Military Hardware specifically designed to kill everything you point it at. Please stop with this inanity."

And of course, rocks must be banned. Our historical records show that ancient Terrans used rocks as weapons of war for thousands of years. Luckily, we live on sterile space ships, so rock related murders are mostly relegated to miners. About 0.03% of all murders annually.

"Again, please stop with this inane argument. Although, I do wonder how exactly your entire population lives in "Sterile" spacecraft."

Let's see... any other weapons we should ban?
...pieces of cloth perhaps: they can be used as slings or to choke someone out. Or maybe replica swords? Those LARP people... you never know when they'll decide to start bashing someone's head in. Bricks too, thrown through glass windows they can be a fearsome weapon in the hands of any psychopath.

"If this is your only argument, I am starting to wonder why I am even bothering to respond. This sort of inanity really is hardly worth my time."

And alcohol! We mustn't let those rebels use Molotov cocktails to raze the cities! Alcohol must be banned, and cigarette lighters too! No matches, no gasoline, the favored weapons of arsonists everywhere. Arsonists accounts for 25.6% of all convicted murderers in our nation.

"There are far more effective ways to burn down a city than Alcohol, or outdated fuels. I'm honestly not even entirely certain how one would go about obtaining Gasoline at this point, besides the point that Imperial Architecture tends not to Burn.

If you would like to formulate a reasonable argument, you are fully welcome to respond. Otherwise, stop wasting my time."

[Jean Pierre Trudeau]

Does your nation prevent its citizens from being anywhere near kitchen knives?

I can kill you with a pen. Do we need to ban those as well?

[Herby]

Ugh, I hate being the last post on the first page. It's so easy to be ignored. You still haven't addressed this:

Give people the right to own firearms but make sure they go through background checks and psychiatric evaluations.

One, you did not answer the question -- tighten or loosen gun control? -- and, two, nothing in your active clauses gives anyone the right to own firearms. You have a preamble that states that your goal is to ensure the right to bear arms, but then your legislative clauses don't do that. Not only does this proposal actually take rights away from a subset of citizens by mandating background checks and psychological evaluations, making it harder for some to own guns, but your last paragraph can be taken as a blocker -- you're allowing individual nations to self-regulate.

So, okay, guns are now totally outlawed in my nation. Am I in compliance with this resolution as written? Well, except for the preamble, which is not legislative in nature anyway... yes I am! Sure, if someone in my nation wants to own a gun, I can do a background check and send them out to a shrink, but then... that's it, I can still forbid them from legally owning a gun, whether they pass or fail.

Does your nation prevent its citizens from being anywhere near kitchen knives?

I can kill you with a pen. Do we need to ban those as well?

You could probably kill with your bare hands too. We should ban those as well. Unless, of course, we give people...

....the right to bare hands!

[Separatist Peoples]

"Your current definition ensures that people likewise have the right to explosives with shrapnel, missile launchers, and artillery. I can see how this is less than ideal for many nations. Again, as a supporter of firearms rights, I must again point out that not every nation or citizenry benefits from private firearms ownership."

[Alvisiror]

Ugh, I hate being the last post on the first page. It's so easy to be ignored. You still haven't addressed this:

One, you did not answer the question -- tighten or loosen gun control? -- and, two, nothing in your active clauses gives anyone the right to own firearms. You have a preamble that states that your goal is to ensure the right to bear arms, but then your legislative clauses don't do that. Not only does this proposal actually take rights away from a subset of citizens by mandating background checks and psychological evaluations, making it harder for some to own guns, but your last paragraph can be taken as a blocker -- you're allowing individual nations to self-regulate.

So, okay, guns are now totally outlawed in my nation. Am I in compliance with this resolution as written? Well, except for the preamble, which is not legislative in nature anyway... yes I am! Sure, if someone in my nation wants to own a gun, I can do a background check and send them out to a shrink, but then... that's it, I can still forbid them from legally owning a gun, whether they pass or fail.

I can kill you with a pen. Do we need to ban those as well?

You could probably kill with your bare hands too. We should ban those as well. Unless, of course, we give people...

....the right to bare hands!

The goal is to allow every sane individual to one a firearm for self defence. This would tighten gun control compared to the 1.0 version which bans background checks.

Different nations have different types of weapons and not all nations would be comfortable with their citizens having assault rifles. That is why each nation may choose which type of firearms are permitted for personal use. None is not an option.

Anything that is not defined as a firearm is up to each individual nation to regulate.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Heh. Ok. Lets dispell that notion that this allows individuals to own firearms, starting and finishing in the actionable clauses."

Background checks and psychiatric evaluations (or equivalent) must be mandatory for all wishing to purchase firearms, whether it be for collection or self defence. This is to prevent mentally unstable individuals, terrorists and other potential criminals from having access to weapons.

"Very well, anybody who wants to buy a firearm gets a background check. So far, all we are required to do is give them the check, not allow them to purchase a firearm."

That background and psychiatric evaluations done on paramilitary and military personal must be transferable for the purchase of firearms since they already handle them daily.

"Transferable how, exactly? To another person? For their service weapon? Why do paramilitary personnel get a pass? Paramilitary organizations are those organizations that mimic military structure. So that includes police, firefighters, youth scouts, private militia, and JROTC. There is no distinction between state-run paramilitary and private, which forces nations to allow non-state actors to arm themselves. Can you not see this as a serious issue?"

Members of the military who have returned from an armed conflict must undergo psychiatric evaluations regardless if they wish to purchase firearms.

"But not the police, or soldiers who, while not facing armed conflict, were still traumatized by training or an accident. Lovely. That's three clauses regarding background checks."

The weapons that are permitted for personal use should be regulated by each country according to their own laws.

"Which doesn't say "YOU CAN'T BAN THEM ALL!!". In fact, it allows the national government to make laws to regulate it out of existence. Even if you claim that this requires legalization of gun ownership, which it categorically does not, it doesn't prevent nations from requiring firearms be kept locked at all times, make the discharge of said weapon illegal, make the removal of the weapon from a highly secure location illegal, ban ammunition, require the firing pin be removed and destroyed, and require a permit 100 years in advance and in triplicate, with a huge fee, to purchase in the first place."

[Sierra Lyricalia]

The goal is to allow every sane individual to one a firearm for self defence. This would tighten gun control compared to the 1.0 version which bans background checks.

Except that it doesn't! The thankfully failing resolution at vote mentions background checks in its preamble, where it doesn't make clear whether they can be used under the resolution as a de facto ban, or just that they have been so used in the past and that's bad, mmkay. If you honestly believed that that vague handwave of a reference to one aspect of firearms law is enough to count as a binding mandate on WA states, then you have about as much business drafting gun legislation as a blind drunk bachelor party attendee has firing a gun.

Please stick around a while and participate in drafting debates so you can pick up an instinct for what works and doesn't work, and for the sometimes intricate ways in which "the law means what the law says." This proposal is more or less DOA, but you might have some success down the road.

[Wrapper]

(The Wads, in their disheveled state, enter the room. Ari reads the proposal, frowns, smiles, and frowns again. He turns to Ahume, whose lips are moving as he reads and rereads. The assistant shrugs, as if to signify that the ambassador is on his own.)

Ummm... we... have to conclude that this proposal does not mandate gun ownership in our nation. Though we suppose we are concerned that if one of our citizens suddenly voiced the desire to purchase a weapon, we would then have to send them off for psychiatric evalua-- (Ahume whispers in his ear.) Yes, that is true... as the assistant ambassador points out, wanting to own weapons in our society would be a sure-fire sign that there is some sort of psychological issue going on there, so, that is probably a good idea. So, net effect is, we can still outlaw weapons in our society, and in the rest of the world, the number of inhabitants who own guns would go down, due to some of them ostensibly failing these background checks and psychiatric evaluations?

(He looks at his assistant, who tilts his head, shrugs, then cautiously nods.)

Okay... we're going to go out on a limb and say that based on your preamble and discussion, this is not at all what you intended. Nevertheless, we would, of course, be in favor of a resolution that does exactly what this resolution says -- tightens gun control by implementing background checks and psychiatric evaluations, and continues to allow us to ban weapons in our nation.

Change that, of course, and our support disappears. Like so....

(A bright light emanates from where the Wads stand, and they dematerialize.)

[Excidium Planetis]

Does your nation prevent its citizens from being anywhere near kitchen knives?

I can kill you with a pen. Do we need to ban those as well?

Of course not. That was my point. Banning guns does not prevent murder, and allowing citizens to carry weapons has allowed them to defend themselves from murderers. That is why it is legal in our nation for civilians to obtain rocket launchers.

"Really. Are we resorting to this now? If they account for 5% of all murders in your Nation, good for you. A Kitchen knife is a far sight from a Firearm capable of flinging death across long ranges."

It is a lethal weapon. You said you banned lethal weapons. So either you were lying or mistaken, Ambassador, and you allow your citizens to have lethal weapons.
And if your citizens are not even allowed to carry firearms, how will they defend themselves from knife-wielding homicidal sociopaths? Are you telling me murderers can go on a rampage in your nation with common cooking utensils? That would seem to be a serious problem.

"I'm not entirely certain what this "Baseball" thing is, Ambassador. Or how exactly one would go about killing someone with an airborne mammal."

It's an ancient Terran sport, so the history books say. And it is quite easy to kill people with airborne mammals. They are an effective weapon of war in some nations.

"Personal Transportation is an entirely different thing from a dedicated piece of Military Hardware specifically designed to kill everything you point it at. Please stop with this inanity."

I'm pointing out all the ways in which our assassins can murder your citizens without needing firearms.

"Again, please stop with this inane argument. Although, I do wonder how exactly your entire population lives in "Sterile" spacecraft."

We live on spacecraft. They are sterile, as our medical technology has eliminated all deadly diseases aboard our ships. Do you not know the definitions of these words?

"If this is your only argument, I am starting to wonder why I am even bothering to respond. This sort of inanity really is hardly worth my time."

You seem to like that word, "inanity".

"There are far more effective ways to burn down a city than Alcohol, or outdated fuels. I'm honestly not even entirely certain how one would go about obtaining Gasoline at this point, besides the point that Imperial Architecture tends not to Burn.

Are your citizens architecture? We have not yet encountered any civilizations inhabited solely by buildings, but I suppose an AI nation might have only buildings. At any rate, are your people fireproof? If they are not, alcohol-based incendiaries would be an effective weapon against your completely unarmed populace. In our nation, we just shoot people who try to light you on fire.

[Tinfect]

Of course not. That was my point. Banning guns does not prevent murder, and allowing citizens to carry weapons has allowed them to defend themselves from murderers. That is why it is legal in our nation for civilians to obtain rocket launchers.

"A Citizen is fully able to utilize Non-Lethal Weapons for self defense. They have no right to access military technology. The fact that you allow your citizens to obtain rocket launchers is, frankly, horrifying, and one questions the sanity of your government.

It is a lethal weapon. You said you banned lethal weapons. So either you were lying or mistaken, Ambassador, and you allow your citizens to have lethal weapons.

"Okay, let me explain this to you, since you seem to misunderstand. An object, be it a Car, Kitchen Knife, or particularly sharp rock, is not considered a weapon, until we have reason to believe that it, has been, currently is, or will be used as such. Until that point, a Kitchen Knife, is a Kitchen Utensil, a Car is a method of Personal Transportation, and a Rock, is a rock. Obviously, objects specifically designed as weapons, such as Firearms, will be treated as such at all times, because there is no reason to have a Firearm, if you do not intend to kill with it."

And if your citizens are not even allowed to carry firearms, how will they defend themselves from knife-wielding homicidal sociopaths? Are you telling me murderers can go on a rampage in your nation with common cooking utensils? That would seem to be a serious problem.

"Citizens have every right to use whatever means of non-lethal defense they so choose. A Knife-Wielding Maniac is just as easily disabled by a, for lack of a better word, Taser, as everyone else. In any case, Internal Security forces are perfectly capable of dealing with said maniac without Civilian interference, and can do so far more efficiently, if said maniac has only a Knife, as opposed to a Pulse Rifle."

We live on spacecraft. They are sterile, as our medical technology has eliminated all deadly diseases aboard our ships. Do you not know the definitions of these words?

"Apologies, my emphasis was misplaced, *Taps Translator* However, I am not misunderstanding, I am merely confused as to how exactly you are able to maintain a population solely in space, we maintain a fair portion of ours in Orbit as well, but, surely Agriculture is planetary? Or the expense involved in creating "Worldships" capable of housing and feeding a population must be extreme."

You seem to like that word, "inanity".

"It accurately describes your argument."

Are your citizens architecture? We have not yet encountered any civilizations inhabited solely by buildings, but I suppose an AI nation might have only buildings. At any rate, are your people fireproof? If they are not, alcohol-based incendiaries would be an effective weapon against your completely unarmed populace. In our nation, we just shoot people who try to light you on fire.

"No, Ambassador, our citizens are not Architecture. However, Internal Security personnel tend to shoot people running about carrying incendiary devices. The interference of the Citizenry is not needed, or wanted. Although, I am not entirely certain why you would want Civilians to be able to shoot Molotov-Bearing anarchists with Rocket Launchers, frankly, that seems somewhat counterproductive."

[Excidium Planetis]

"A Citizen is fully able to utilize Non-Lethal Weapons for self defense. They have no right to access military technology. The fact that you allow your citizens to obtain rocket launchers is, frankly, horrifying, and one questions the sanity of your government.

OOC: The US allows civilians to obtain rocket launchers for personal use. Then again, I sometimes question the sanity of the US government, albeit for entirely different reasons.

"Okay, let me explain this to you, since you seem to misunderstand. An object, be it a Car, Kitchen Knife, or particularly sharp rock, is not considered a weapon, until we have reason to believe that it, has been, currently is, or will be used as such. Until that point, a Kitchen Knife, is a Kitchen Utensil, a Car is a method of Personal Transportation, and a Rock, is a rock. Obviously, objects specifically designed as weapons, such as Firearms, will be treated as such at all times, because there is no reason to have a Firearm, if you do not intend to kill with it."

"Citizens have every right to use whatever means of non-lethal defense they so choose. A Knife-Wielding Maniac is just as easily disabled by a, for lack of a better word, Taser, as everyone else. In any case, Internal Security forces are perfectly capable of dealing with said maniac without Civilian interference, and can do so far more efficiently, if said maniac has only a Knife, as opposed to a Pulse Rifle."

I am not sure what type of "tasers" your nation uses, but in our nation tasers are often not effective at protecting against determined attackers, especially one wearing full-body clothing, as the electrical charge requires contact with the skin. In fact, studies show that tasers are only 69% effective in stopping attackers, which includes many attackers wearing only normal levels of clothing. Additional medical studies have also shown that tasers can indeed be lethal weapons, leading to cardiac arrest in humans, especially if modified to have increased voltage. So do your citizens carry ineffective but still lethal weapons?

"Apologies, my emphasis was misplaced, *Taps Translator* However, I am not misunderstanding, I am merely confused as to how exactly you are able to maintain a population solely in space, we maintain a fair portion of ours in Orbit as well, but, surely Agriculture is planetary? Or the expense involved in creating "Worldships" capable of housing and feeding a population must be extreme."

Agriculture is done on farms on board our ships, usually hydroponics farms. These are almost always located in areas with artificial gravity, usually by centrifugal acceleration, and thus can be placed even on fairly small ships. The cost of building our Homeship (the largest ship in our fleets, and only one of its kind) was immense, but it was prompted by our civilization fleeing a supernova that wiped out our planets, so the expense was easily justified.

"No, Ambassador, our citizens are not Architecture. However, Internal Security personnel tend to shoot people running about carrying incendiary devices. The interference of the Citizenry is not needed, or wanted. Although, I am not entirely certain why you would want Civilians to be able to shoot Molotov-Bearing anarchists with Rocket Launchers, frankly, that seems somewhat counterproductive."

I do not see how eliminating attackers is counterproductive, nor how ensuring that a very large portion of our population can defend against enemy assaults is counterproductive. You expressed concern over pulse rifle wielding attackers... what will your civilian population do when a foreign power invades and begins massacring your populace with pulse rifles? In our nation, the citizens would fight back on near equal terms.

[Tinfect]

OOC: The US allows civilians to obtain rocket launchers for personal use. Then again, I sometimes question the sanity of the US government, albeit for entirely different reasons.

OOC:
Holy shit. I knew our Gun Laws we fucked, but that is insane.
IC:

I am not sure what type of "tasers" your nation uses, but in our nation tasers are often not effective at protecting against determined attackers

"It is not a Taser in the conventional sense, it is more of a low-output Directed Energy Weapon, that we have been very careful to ensure that it cannot be lethally modified without at least significant risk to the one attempting it. In any case, there are other self-defense items that can be used."

Additional medical studies have also shown that tasers can indeed be lethal weapons, leading to cardiac arrest in humans, especially if modified to have increased voltage. So do your citizens carry ineffective but still lethal weapons?

"I suppose if one were to fire more rounds than the device is actually capable of in a single unit, you could kill someone, but there are far simpler, and more effective ways to kill someone than using Self-Defense Weapons to do so."

I do not see how eliminating attackers is counterproductive, nor how ensuring that a very large portion of our population can defend against enemy assaults is counterproductive. You expressed concern over pulse rifle wielding attackers... what will your civilian population do when a foreign power invades and begins massacring your populace with pulse rifles? In our nation, the citizens would fight back on near equal terms.

"The specific example involved a Rocket Launcher, I imagine the aftermath of the usage of such a weapon is obvious, but that is irrelevant. If the Imperium is invaded by a Foreign Power, and they somehow manage to make it to the Surface of a planet without interacting with the Garrison, or the Orbital Defense Grid, something has gone horribly wrong. In any case, Internal Security is fully capable as a Branch of the Military, and use nearly-identical suits of Powered Armour. They will be more than capable of evacuating, and defending affect areas until reinforcements arrive. We have been in that situation more times than I would like to admit to, but we have held almost all instances without further military action. Untrained, civilians have no place in our Defense Strategies, and for Non-Evacuation purposes, are considered Liabilities to Military Action. They have no place anywhere near an active battlefield."

[Celsuis]

"Mandating background checks, psychiatric evaluations, or any regulation whatsoever on firearms is a direct violation of the Constitution of the Republic of Celsuis. We strongly oppose the current draft of this resolution."

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: The US allows civilians to obtain rocket launchers for personal use. Then again, I sometimes question the sanity of the US government, albeit for entirely different reasons.

OOC:
Holy shit. I knew our Gun Laws we fucked, but that is insane.

[/quote]

OOC: Its all but impossible and prohibitively expensive to do so. On the order of thousands of dollars just for the paperwork subject to government approval. Its not exactly a terribly convincing argument.

[Excidium Planetis]

OOC:
Holy shit. I knew our Gun Laws we fucked, but that is insane.

OOC: For about $2500 and $50 a round, you can own and fire your very own 1965 Gyrojet.

IC:

"It is not a Taser in the conventional sense, it is more of a low-output Directed Energy Weapon, that we have been very careful to ensure that it cannot be lethally modified without at least significant risk to the one attempting it. In any case, there are other self-defense items that can be used."

Ah, yes, well... that's probably a lot more effective than our tasers. Our nation has been unsuccessful in finding a sufficient handheld power source for directed energy weapons, so such devices are not manufactured by us.

"I suppose if one were to fire more rounds than the device is actually capable of in a single unit, you could kill someone, but there are far simpler, and more effective ways to kill someone than using Self-Defense Weapons to do so."

Such as?

"The specific example involved a Rocket Launcher, I imagine the aftermath of the usage of such a weapon is obvious,

A wounded or killed attacker? Perhaps a few holes in surrounding objects from missed rocket rounds?

but that is irrelevant. If the Imperium is invaded by a Foreign Power, and they somehow manage to make it to the Surface of a planet without interacting with the Garrison, or the Orbital Defense Grid, something has gone horribly wrong. In any case, Internal Security is fully capable as a Branch of the Military, and use nearly-identical suits of Powered Armour. They will be more than capable of evacuating, and defending affect areas until reinforcements arrive. We have been in that situation more times than I would like to admit to, but we have held almost all instances without further military action. Untrained, civilians have no place in our Defense Strategies, and for Non-Evacuation purposes, are considered Liabilities to Military Action. They have no place anywhere near an active battlefield."

And how many civilian casualties will you take during the evacuation? How can you be assured you can evacuate them before your forces are overrun? What happens when your Security forces are defeated?

Our nation can rest assured that even if 100% of our military forces were captured or killed, our civilians could still be defended. Additionally, without civilian flak cannons, interceptor missile systems, and point defense laser cannons, our Homeship (and indeed, the thousands of civilian vessels we have too) would be extremely susceptible to enemy torpedo attacks. Imagine whole sections of our ship hit with antimatter weapons that could easily have been stopped by automated civilian weapons!

[Flibbleites]

As stated in the draft, it is up to each nation to determine which weapons are accessible to the civilian population. Your nation does not have to provide top of the line military grade hardware to civilians.

In other words, it would be exactly as it is now when there's no resolution on Gun Control on the books.

Does your nation prevent its citizens from being anywhere near kitchen knives? Lethal Weapons those things are, they account for nearly 5% of all murders in our nation.

"Really. Are we resorting to this now? If they account for 5% of all murders in your Nation, good for you. A Kitchen knife is a far sight from a Firearm capable of flinging death across long ranges."

I've got news for you, knives can be dangerous at distances too.

Obviously, objects specifically designed as weapons, such as Firearms, will be treated as such at all times, because there is no reason to have a Firearm, if you do not intend to kill with it."

And you're wrong, I can think of several reasons to own a firearm besides killing people: target shooting, hunting (and yes I realize that this would involve killing animals when done successfully), antique gun collectors, museum curators. All of these would have perfectly valid, non-lethal reasons to own a gun.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative