[DEFEATED] Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"

[Separatist Peoples]

What's with everything being a repeal anyway? Nobody coming up with anything original?

Oh, it's a pro-life group trying to be anti-abortion again... AGAINST

Cmon, right to choose, perhaps there should be something to prevent things like gendercide and similar stuff, but repealing a proper right? That's your answer? Ugh...

"The repeal doesn't even touch on the pro life/choice argument whatsoever. In fact, it wishes to clear the road for a better replacement. Moreover, genocide and discrimination are both already legislated upon, which basically covers gendercide. Do the Camtholian ambassadors just not bother educating themselves on international law before showing up here, or are you a special case, ambassador?"

[United Republic of Jayanti]

Unfortunately, the United Republic of Jayanti serves a very oppressive state. However, the Republic does not interfere int eh field of medicine. All actions and course of treatment will be put in by the physician and the physician alone. All holds false.

[The Eternal Kawaii]

"We have of course cast our vote against the resolution at vote, for reasons well detailed throughout the debate. It is heartening to see compassion and respect for women winning out."

- Mrs Functionary Mary CP Doe.

Except for those women who will never be born because their mother's culture favors boys over girls. Do people not read the proposals that they vote on here?

[Separatist Peoples]

"We have of course cast our vote against the resolution at vote, for reasons well detailed throughout the debate. It is heartening to see compassion and respect for women winning out."

- Mrs Functionary Mary CP Doe.

Except for those women who will never be born because their mother's culture favors boys over girls. Do people not read the proposals that they vote on here?

"Since those women never existed, no harm has befallen to them. Concern for their lack of existence is right up there with mourning the women not born because the egg didn't fertilize: not existing is not a harm."

[Tavok]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but was there ever a chance that something with optics as bad as "Repeal 'Reproductive Freedoms'" was going to pass? You have to imagine most people just looked at the title and clicked "against."

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

Except for those women who will never be born because their mother's culture favors boys over girls. Do people not read the proposals that they vote on here?

"Since those women never existed, no harm has befallen to them. Concern for their lack of existence is right up there with mourning the women not born because the egg didn't fertilize: not existing is not a harm."

"But they did exist, and then they were killed without remorse."

[Wallenburg]

"Since those women never existed, no harm has befallen to them. Concern for their lack of existence is right up there with mourning the women not born because the egg didn't fertilize: not existing is not a harm."

"But they did exist, and then they were killed without remorse."

"My body has produced over 6800 eggs through the duration of my life, Ambassador, yet I have not produced a single child. Have I then killed over 6800 people?"

[Ghostopolis]

Ambassador Geist descends from the ceiling until he is floating a few feet away from a nearby podium. Seeing the ongoing arguments throughout the voting chamber, he leans forward and projects his voice toward the podium's microphone, choosing not to put himself on the same ground as the angry crowd.

"The votes of The Versutian Federation are overwhelming in this matter and as their delegate it is my duty to cast my vote against the resolution in question, especially given that I agree with them. The argument laid out seems to be well-intentioned, but this nation believes it is at least partly disingenuous. Existing international law can protect against many of the fears that supposedly motivate the author of this resolution. Furthermore, we do not believe that because some may have differing personal morality, the rights and health of women should be put at risk. Moral authority can be abusive and intrusive, and should not be the primary motivation for restricting the rights of others. It has its place but should not be used to control others. Of course, I am not suggesting that this is what the author had in mind, and continue to believe that the intentions in this resolution were good. Given what is at stake, however, I cannot take the chance I am mistaken. Good evening."

The ambassador rapidly ascends to avoid further entangling himself in the heated debate.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

"But they did exist, and then they were killed without remorse."

"My body has produced over 6800 eggs through the duration of my life, Ambassador, yet I have not produced a single child. Have I then killed over 6800 people?"

You're about as tone-deaf as Ariana Grande, ambassador. Congratulations. Why don't you go to the Strangers' Bar and lick some doughnuts while declaring hatred for your country? Do you want a medal or something? Some honor to recognize your ignorance? For there are thousands of unborn girls - yes thousands - aborted under this act, who will never join in your anthem of sisterhood, because many societies encourage their citizens to abort girls...completely legal under this act...and never get called out for their misogyny.

Girl Power!

[Sciongrad]

"My body has produced over 6800 eggs through the duration of my life, Ambassador, yet I have not produced a single child. Have I then killed over 6800 people?"

You're about as tone-deaf as Ariana Grande, ambassador. Congratulations. Why don't you go to the Strangers' Bar and lick some doughnuts while declaring hatred for your country? Do you want a medal or something? Some honor to recognize your ignorance? For there are thousands of unborn girls - yes thousands - aborted under this act, who will never join in your anthem of sisterhood, because many societies encourage their citizens to abort girls...completely legal under this act...and never get called out for their misogyny.

Girl Power!

"Honestly, I couldn't agree more. For those of you hailing this repeal's defeat as some victory for women's rights, I regret to inform you that you couldn't be farther removed from reality. Cultures that place higher social value in men will be able to continue to abort female fetuses to their misogynistic heart's content, and the WA is paralyzed to act on this. I hope the zealots out there who have practically deified this resolution are happy with their complicity in maintaining one of the most profoundly misogynistic social institutions in the history of humanity."

[Wallenburg]

"My body has produced over 6800 eggs through the duration of my life, Ambassador, yet I have not produced a single child. Have I then killed over 6800 people?"

You're about as tone-deaf as Ariana Grande, ambassador. Congratulations. Why don't you go to the Strangers' Bar and lick some doughnuts while declaring hatred for your country? Do you want a medal or something? Some honor to recognize your ignorance? For there are thousands of unborn girls - yes thousands - aborted under this act, who will never join in your anthem of sisterhood, because many societies encourage their citizens to abort girls...completely legal under this act...and never get called out for their misogyny.

Girl Power!

"First, 'Ambassador', I have no idea who Ariana Grande is. Second, I do not like doughnuts. Third, you can do without the petty insults to my intellect and my character. I do not hate my country. Why the hell would I take this office if I hated my country? Since when has any Wallenburgian hated her country? Fourth, I am aware that 'Reproductive Freedoms'--as it is currently written--technically permits sex-selective abortion procedures. I also have yet to see a replacement that does not. Until then, I will choose between the lesser of two evils. Fifth, what the fuck does this have to do with what I have said?

"Now, would you like me to disparage your character, competency, and cognitive capacity? Or is that just something that you get to do?"

[Bananaistan]

"We have of course cast our vote against the resolution at vote, for reasons well detailed throughout the debate. It is heartening to see compassion and respect for women winning out."

- Mrs Functionary Mary CP Doe.

Except for those women who will never be born because their mother's culture favors boys over girls. Do people not read the proposals that they vote on here?

"Do people not read the debate before they contribute?

"The repeal is based on the idea that member states or the WA should be allowed to prohibit sex selective abortions. I ask how would such a ban work in practice. The answer from the Ossitanian delegation was that the woman would be criminalised after the doctor guesses if she wants a sex selective abortion even though the "problem" is indicative of wider societal issues. So the upshot is that the supporters of the repeal are concerned that there are societies in the WA which so vastly value one gender over the other that pressure is brought to bear on woman to practice "gendercide" and their "solution" to this is to throw the woman in jail after riding rough shod over doctor-patient confidentiality based on some trend in wider society.

"I think it's fair enough in this context to state that compassion is winning out when the alternative is wholesale criminalisation of women and gross interference in their reproductive rights."

(OOC: Edit after actually reading to the end of the thread. )

"Honestly, I couldn't agree more. For those of you hailing this repeal's defeat as some victory for women's rights, I regret to inform you that you couldn't be farther removed from reality. Cultures that place higher social value in men will be able to continue to abort female fetuses to their misogynistic heart's content, and the WA is paralyzed to act on this. I hope the zealots out there who have practically deified this resolution are happy with their complicity in maintaining one of the most profoundly misogynistic social institutions in the history of humanity."

"Given the whole gamut of progressive international law on the books, particularly the COCR, and noting that every single right guaranteed by international law is guaranteed to all citizens of member states, just how likely is that any such culture remains unchecked in their misogyny?

"In any case, how would such a ban work in practice? Does the whole culture get thrown in jail every time that a woman aborts a female foetus? Or does the criminalisation just rest with the woman? How does the law know when an abortion is a sex selective abortion? How does the law discern what the woman's thoughts and feelings?"

- Mrs Functionary Mary CP Doe

[Excidium Planetis]

"I noticed that, but frankly do not see how it changes the argument."

"Forcing a months long delay for a simple yet critical medical procedure? That is like waiting two months for an appendectomy, and is absolutely an impediment when applied discriminatorily."

"But it isn't applied discriminatorily. It is applied to everyone seeking a termination of pregnancy for any reason. That's not discriminatory."

"For nations with sufficiently advanced technology, all fetuses can be viable. It's simply a matter of keeping the bundle of cells alive and growing throughout the operation and afterwards. And please, show exactly where it says time limits cannot be placed."

"Tech level is wholly irrelevant. If you can techwank yourself out of compliance, ambassador, bully for you. Not everybody can.

"So in the face of a specific counter example where termination of pregnancy can be used even without time restraints to prevent abortion, you still hold that abortion is protected by GA#286?"

"Time limits are not specified. If they were specified in any way, nations would have discretion on that, but it was deliberately left open-ended. The inclusion of that open-endedness was deliberate, and done to the exclusion of all time limits. An implied exclusion argument lies whenever there is reason to believe that if the legislature had meant to include a particular thing within the ambit of its legislation, it would have referred to that thing expressly. Reproductive Freedoms did not, and there remains an incredible amount of evidence to suggest that the legislature meant to exclude time limits, the Faeries being notoriously emphatic individual sovereigntists."

"So if the resolution does not state that time constraints, including legal stalking which could take place anyways, cannot be placed, then the resolution, by its silence, allows time restraints on terminations of pregnancy. Thus allowing a massive loophole even for nations that do not have the tech to keep fetuses viable early in a pregnancy."

" For the reason that it doesn't mention abortion at all?"

"Nope, just a legally analogous term which, medically speaking, specifically excludes live birth."

"But specifically includes removal of a viable fetus, which allows sustaining that fetus to full development."

"Yes. Remember all those attempts to repeal Freedom of Marriage for religious belief purposes when Freedom of Marriage specifically allowed religious communities to not recognize same-sex unions? People are notoriously bad at reading resolutions."

"Because the alternative was to ban all marriages to ensure fairness. I didn't realize that equality was such an anathema to you. That, or you've decided to take up the Stellonian notion of dishonesty in intellectual pursuits, which I thought you were above."

"What are you on about Ambassador? My point was that even in a resolution allowing a specific loophole, people unaware of that loophole would still try to repeal it for poor reasons. People are really bad at reading resolutions."

"By that argument, no one should ever vote for any repeal, for fear that what little it did do would never get replaced."

"The target is only insufficient by a bizarre reading of the resolution. That is sufficient to vote against the repeal."

"A bizarre reading is seeing the word abortion when there is none."

"I noticed that, but frankly do not see how it changes the argument."

"Mr. Bell spoke to almost all the points I wanted to look at, so I won't muddy the waters by piling on. But the one assertion he didn't address from your previous time on the floor is the GAR #29 issue - where that entire argument rests on this flawed interpretation of the Patient's Rights Act. If the guy in the boat is right, then the PRA only requires that a patient be permitted to accept or refuse treatment entirely - that is, consent (or not) to the whole concept of being treated at all; NOT to weigh options and decide what particular form of treatment she'll accept. If that is all true, then he's right - it's possible to simply not have any form of treatment available outside of the terms of GAR #128. But that ignores the preceding paragraph, which explicitly gives patients that very power."

"Therefore since the target doesn't permit a backdoor (back loading dock, really) abortion ban, we remain against its repeal."

"You severely misunderstand Guy in a Boat's argument. Guy in aboat argued not that patients had no right to choose specific treatments when offered a selection, but that if patients only had one choice by law, to get a C-section, then they could only refuse or accept the treatment. Patients have no right under GA#29 to choose illegal treatments. By making it illegal for any doctor to perform any termination of pregnancy except by C-section, patients have no choice but to refuse termination or accept termination by C-section."

[Araraukar]

OOC: Voted against on PPU, because IC reasons be damned, and this particular proposal's reasoning too (since it matters so little what the actual argument is, when it comes to the effect it'll have), I just don't want to give Stellonia the annoying people any reason to celebrate being one step closer to banning abortion WA-wide.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

"But they did exist, and then they were killed without remorse."

"My body has produced over 6800 eggs through the duration of my life, Ambassador, yet I have not produced a single child. Have I then killed over 6800 people?"

"If our understanding of the 'eggs' or gametes produced by your primitive species is correct, no. An unfertilized gamete is not a human being, it's still just a gamete."

[Araraukar]

"An unfertilized gamete is not a human being, it's still just a gamete."

And a fertilized egg is just a fertilized egg. Your point?

[Separatist Peoples]

"Since those women never existed, no harm has befallen to them. Concern for their lack of existence is right up there with mourning the women not born because the egg didn't fertilize: not existing is not a harm."

"But they did exist, and then they were killed without remorse."

"It has already been pointed out how fetuses cannot be considered people and remain in compliance with WA law. They didn't exist. If you want to debate that, find somebody willing to stoop to your level of half-truths in debate; I have higher standards."

[The Imperial Frost Federation]

Lt. Albert Nakiri rose up and read a small sheet of paper, "After carefully reading the contents of the repeal bill the Imperial Frost Federation will vote against the resolution as we feel that the contoversial resolution sufficiently protects a women's reproductive system at this time. However, if there are more compelling arguments to repeal the controversial bill we will withdraw our vote and vote for the resolution."

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

I also have yet to see a replacement that does not.

The replacement has been linked to several times in this topic already. It does not ban sex-selective abortions, but at least it allows individual nations to ban them. RF does not.

[Wallenburg]

I also have yet to see a replacement that does not.

The replacement has been linked to several times in this topic already. It does not ban sex-selective abortions, but at least it allows individual nations to ban them. RF does not.

Neither of them permit bans on sex-selective abortions, Ambassador. The replacement clearly:

AFFIRMS the solemn individual right to reproductive choice, including the freedom to terminate one's own pregnancy,

OBLIGES member states to respect the rights of patients wishing to undergo abortion as a medical procedure,

"Bans on sex-selective abortion would violate these clauses."

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Uh, nope. The replacement also:

RESERVES to member states the authority to regulate this practice, provided such policies do not unnecessarily impugn the rights of individuals to avail themselves of such procedures, and that relevant stipulations of previous standing WA resolutions are honored,

Meaning that if nations wanted to scrutinize patients requesting an abortion, and deny them to those who clearly are trying to get rid of a girl fetus, it would be entirely within their rights under PRA and the proposed replacement legislation to do so.

PRA only makes provisions for procedures that are legal in the nations in which they take place. If a nation wants to invoke its right to regulate abortion and ban sex-selective abortions, PRA would allow them to do so.

[Wallenburg]

Uh, nope. The replacement also:

RESERVES to member states the authority to regulate this practice, provided such policies do not unnecessarily impugn the rights of individuals to avail themselves of such procedures, and that relevant stipulations of previous standing WA resolutions are honored,

Meaning that if nations wanted to scrutinize patients requesting an abortion, and deny them to those who clearly are trying to get rid of a girl fetus, it would be entirely within their rights under PRA and the proposed replacement legislation to do so.

PRA only makes provisions for procedures that are legal in the nations in which they take place. If a nation wants to invoke its right to regulate abortion and ban sex-selective abortions, PRA would allow them to do so.

"Exactly how does a surgeon tell if a woman wants an abortion because of the fetus's developing genitalia? How do you interpret the right to regulate as a right to prohibit? How do you protect against abuse of this clause?"

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

"But they did exist, and then they were killed without remorse."

"It has already been pointed out how fetuses cannot be considered people and remain in compliance with WA law. They didn't exist. If you want to debate that, find somebody willing to stoop to your level of half-truths in debate; I have higher standards."

"Our government respects the inalienable rights of the unborn, while also remaining in compliance with GAR 286. We obviously cannot enact laws stating a fetus is not an individual, because that's scientifically false. The only choice is to mandate that the fetus' must be kept alive if a pregnancy is terminated. Failure to do so results in a prison sentence of up to 7,000 years."

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Uh, nope. The replacement also:


Meaning that if nations wanted to scrutinize patients requesting an abortion, and deny them to those who clearly are trying to get rid of a girl fetus, it would be entirely within their rights under PRA and the proposed replacement legislation to do so.

PRA only makes provisions for procedures that are legal in the nations in which they take place. If a nation wants to invoke its right to regulate abortion and ban sex-selective abortions, PRA would allow them to do so.

"Exactly how does a surgeon tell if a woman wants an abortion because of the fetus's developing genitalia?"

By requiring patients the doctor has suspicions about to submit to a psych evaluation before the procedure is granted, perhaps? As long as it does not "unnecessarily impugn" patients' legal rights to attain abortions, there wouldn't be any problems with screening patients to reduce the likelihood of killing fetuses just because they're girls.

[Wallenburg]

"It has already been pointed out how fetuses cannot be considered people and remain in compliance with WA law. They didn't exist. If you want to debate that, find somebody willing to stoop to your level of half-truths in debate; I have higher standards."

"Our government respects the inalienable rights of the unborn, while also remaining in compliance with GAR 286. We obviously cannot enact laws stating a fetus is not an individual, because that's scientifically false. The only choice is to mandate that the fetus' must be kept alive if a pregnancy is terminated. Failure to do so results in a prison sentence of up to 7,000 years."

Is there a resolution against cruel and unusual punishment? Because it seems like there should be.