[PASSED] Protected Status in Wartime

[Losthaven]

Taking a step back from genocide, what will this do to domestic spying? (OOC: Think how effective James Bond would be if he were prohibited from dressing as a civilian).

The ambassador for Sobaira coughed to let her presence be known before chiming in, "Excuse me, honourable ambassador, I do be believing that the legislator has already addressed this issue. If my aide could get me the minutes..." one of her aides handed her some documents and she began to read from them,

"And furthermore, the proposal specifically applies to combatants. That indicates troops who are involved in fighting. Spies don't fight. Their job is to blend and pass along intelligence. They aren't all James Bond imitators who shoot their way through enemy bases, they collect and transmit intel. No fighting. As such, nothing, absolutely nothing, in this resolution prevents human intelligence assets, military or civilian, from changing garb to blend, so long as they don't engage in combat operations."

She handed the documents back, "Thank you for your time, ambassador," and sat back down, trying her best to ignore the plethora of threatening statements lobbed between the ambassador of the UWA and the persons engaged in more 'spirited' discussion with them.

Nonsense. Spies are combatants.

[Separatist Peoples]

"And yet the Secretariat has made no attempt to remove or correct this, and this has been in drafting for MONTHS. File a GHR if you feel you must, but this clearly hasn't sent up red flags.

OOC: I didn't mention this in my IC post above, but I'll do so here. Obviously, amidst the backslapping and praise, no one thought to even bring up that you may have selected the wrong category. Neither did I; I personally let it slide because I can see a very distant argument that we are protecting the rights of civilians, medics, etc., by prohibiting soldiers from falsely assuming their protections, as that encourages enemy soldiers to respect those protections. For example, if enemy soldiers are sure that someone who looks like a civilian is not a soldier in disguise they will be less likely to shoot first and ask questions later.

But I think it's a pretty weak argument. And, really, it's really not clear from the preamble or the arguments made in this thread how this improves civil freedoms even in the weak way discussed above. The most direct consequence of this law is that the free actions of soldiers and military commanders are reduced, on the grounds that it is unfair perfidy to allow certain kinds of deception. Either Moral Decency or Political Stability are likely better categories for future resolutions that regulated what militaries can and cannot do tactically.

My IC response to a proposal that passes but in the wrong category (at least in my opinion, but here I think objectively so) is to treat it as a broken promise. That is, Losthaven will behave as if this law promised to improve civil freedoms but has in fact failed to do so. Hence, my IC response above.

OOC: that's a fair assessment, I suppose. My reasoning was, as much earlier stated, it has a very similar effect as Rules of Surrender, which was rules as legal under Human Rights. The goal was for consistency in this endeavor. Regardless of it's' perceived failure at protecting civil rights, it still protects the human rights, mostly the right to not be killed, of non-military entities in a conflict zone. I struggle to see a situation where that can be perceived as a failure.

[Separatist Peoples]

"And yet the Secretariat has made no attempt to remove or correct this, and this has been in drafting for MONTHS. File a GHR if you feel you must, but this clearly hasn't sent up red flags.

"As for "good cause", there is no possible definition of good cause that isn't so subjective as to gut this. There is no time it is acceptable to risk drawing in a neutral power by utilizing a neutral party's insignia. There are alternatives available in every situation, and nations are expected to utilize them instead of poorly justifying perfidy. I reject the notion that a nation may act perfidiously in the name of "the greater good", as that greater good is rarely sufficiently objective."

There's no reason to define good cause, but a good cause exception should nonetheless have been allowed. There are always exceptions when it comes to military struggle - frankly, we need only imagine what limits we would respect if a great, evil force threatened to commit some horrible genocide on us to realize that any deception under those circumstances would be justifiable (whether to resist, escape, etc.)

Taking a step back from genocide, what will this do to domestic spying? (OOC: Think how effective James Bond would be if he were prohibited from dressing as a civilian).

Losthaven has no military to speak of and we rely on diplomacy and the goodwill of our neighbors to keep us safe. That said, we remain concerned that our allies will be significantly disadvantaged because this resolution paints with too broad a brush and outlaws activities which - under the right circumstances - could not possibly be viewed as war crimes.

"I believe your concerns regarding espionage were addressed, so I'll focus on your concerns regarding exceptions. I'm sure philosophers will wrestle until the end of time with the question of whether the ends justify the means. It is my position, as my writing reflects it, that doing a good thing in a bad way is still a harm, not only in reference to that particular action, but because of the precedence such an action will have. I an example wherein two powers, one a theological entity and one a secular one, engage in military action, both could, and probably do, consider the other an evil worthy of breaking the rules to defeat. Both would utilize that subjective exception to justify an action that actively corrodes the trust nations rely on to prevent the deaths of innocents. The WA, having allowed such a breach to occur, would be tacitly approving that exception to any power that could conjure a justification for themselves, regardless of the actual validity. And the law would be gutted.

"I'm sure you are well aware of what would happen, but I outline it for the sake of those not as familiar with this line of reasoning. There is just no possible phrasing of exceptions that could possibly cover all reasonable circumstances without also gutting the law. It simply isn't realistic."

[Sobaira]

Nonsense. Spies are combatants.

The ambassador gave the document a reading, before speaking up, "Honourable ambassador, here it says that spies can be indeed considered a combatant, but only if they take direct part in combat. The list of unprivileged combatants covers this, saying:

Spies, mercenaries, child soldiers, and civilians who take a direct part in combat

So we believe this indicates that as long as they do not take direct part in combat, such as they are to be limited to engaging in espionage, gathering and trading intelligence and the like, that they are therefore not combatants by your own source for definition. Thank you for your time, again, ambassador."

[Losthaven]

Nonsense. Spies are combatants.

The ambassador gave the document a reading, before speaking up, "Honourable ambassador, here it says that spies can be indeed considered a combatant, but only if they take direct part in combat. The list of unprivileged combatants covers this, saying:

Spies, mercenaries, child soldiers, and civilians who take a direct part in combat

So we believe this indicates that as long as they do not take direct part in combat, such as they are to be limited to engaging in espionage, gathering and trading intelligence and the like, that they are therefore not combatants by your own source for definition. Thank you for your time, again, ambassador."

Erhem... In any event, congratulations to the author on successful passage of this proposal, with a supermajority no less.

- Yanaria Lanham-Byars, Esteemed Representative and Voice of the People of Losthaven

[Separatist Peoples]

The ambassador gave the document a reading, before speaking up, "Honourable ambassador, here it says that spies can be indeed considered a combatant, but only if they take direct part in combat. The list of unprivileged combatants covers this, saying:



So we believe this indicates that as long as they do not take direct part in combat, such as they are to be limited to engaging in espionage, gathering and trading intelligence and the like, that they are therefore not combatants by your own source for definition. Thank you for your time, again, ambassador."

Erhem... In any event, congratulations to the author on successful passage of this proposal, with a supermajority no less.

- Yanaria Lanham-Byars, Esteemed Representative and Voice of the People of Losthaven

"Thank you, Ambassador. I want to assure you that your concerns were deeply considered by this delegation, and were in no way dismissed. Regardless of our political differences and, indeed, regardless of the outcome of the vote, your input was very much appreciated and highly valued."

[Imperium Anglorum]

Erhem... In any event, congratulations to the author on successful passage of this proposal, with a supermajority no less.

- Yanaria Lanham-Byars, Esteemed Representative and Voice of the People of Losthaven

"Thank you, Ambassador. I want to assure you that your concerns were deeply considered by this delegation, and were in no way dismissed. Regardless of our political differences and, indeed, regardless of the outcome of the vote, your input was very much appreciated and highly valued."

Parsons: 'May, I, Your excellency, present to you... a WA Stranger Bar burrito!'

[Caracasus]

May we congratulate you ambassador on passing a much needed and well thought out piece of legislation.

[Percussionland]

Percussionland offers it's congratulations on the passing of an excellent resolution that is sure to promote peace and the success of humanitarian aid missions.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Thank you, Ambassador. I want to assure you that your concerns were deeply considered by this delegation, and were in no way dismissed. Regardless of our political differences and, indeed, regardless of the outcome of the vote, your input was very much appreciated and highly valued."

Parsons: 'May, I, Your excellency, present to you... a WA Stranger Bar burrito!'

"Well, I was going to share a bottle of pilfered Stellonian booze with you in celebration, but I think a duel is a more appropriate response to that gesture."

[Imperium Anglorum]

Parsons: 'May, I, Your excellency, present to you... a WA Stranger Bar burrito!'

"Well, I was going to share a bottle of pilfered Stellonian booze with you in celebration, but I think a duel is a more appropriate response to that gesture."

Parsons: Are you challenging me? If you are, then I get to pick the weapons and the location, you know, per the rules of duelling. And man, I will be picking some exotic locales and weapons. Secondarily, first blood or death?

[Separatist Peoples]

"Well, I was going to share a bottle of pilfered Stellonian booze with you in celebration, but I think a duel is a more appropriate response to that gesture."

Parsons: Are you challenging me? If you are, then I get to pick the weapons and the location, you know, per the rules of duelling. And man, I will be picking some exotic locales and weapons. Secondarily, first blood or death?

"Not quite what I meant, but sure. Say, cheap liquor at 20 paces, the Bar, in twenty minutes? First one to puke loses!"

[Imperium Anglorum]

Parsons: Are you challenging me? If you are, then I get to pick the weapons and the location, you know, per the rules of duelling. And man, I will be picking some exotic locales and weapons. Secondarily, first blood or death?

"Not quite what I meant, but sure. Say, cheap liquor at 20 paces, the Bar, in twenty minutes? First one to puke loses!"

Parsons: A challenge! Okay. I pick sabres, on horseback, in Oxbridge field at Oxbridge. Or, more dramatically, we can do mortars at 30 paces. But I prefer dreadnoughts in any saltwater ocean. Come to think on it, I think dreadnoughts will be the best option. I'll be picking that.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Not quite what I meant, but sure. Say, cheap liquor at 20 paces, the Bar, in twenty minutes? First one to puke loses!"

Parsons: A challenge! Okay. I pick sabres, on horseback, in Oxbridge field at Oxbridge. Or, more dramatically, we can do mortars at 30 paces. But I prefer dreadnoughts in any saltwater ocean. Come to think on it, I think dreadnoughts will be the best option. I'll be picking that.

"Very well. You go to the docks, and I'll go to the Bar, and we'll see who wins. I guess...wait, dreadnaughts? As in, to joust with? Is that what your people do?"

[The Defwaen Confederation]

Some people just aren't satisfied with an affordable beverage

[Imperium Anglorum]

Parsons: A challenge! Okay. I pick sabres, on horseback, in Oxbridge field at Oxbridge. Or, more dramatically, we can do mortars at 30 paces. But I prefer dreadnoughts in any saltwater ocean. Come to think on it, I think dreadnoughts will be the best option. I'll be picking that.

"Very well. You go to the docks, and I'll go to the Bar, and we'll see who wins. I guess...wait, dreadnaughts? As in, to joust with? Is that what your people do?"

Parsons: No, good Sir. To duel with.
Intern Elisa: Your Grace, the dreadnought HMS Delenda is here.
Parsons: Ah! Perfect. Anyway, Bell, you'll have some 2 tonne 12-inch projectiles headed at you.

[Whovian Tardisia]

Congratulations, Separatist Peoples! I propose an all round toast, drinks on me.