[PASSED] Wartime Looting and Pillage

[Separatist Peoples]

I'm saying once the citizens attack their a militia and subjected to being treated as such therefore they may be looted they allowed them selves to be looted when they picked up a rifle

"I'm not sure why membership in a militia somehow exempts a military force from the basic tenant that "stealing is bad", ambassador. In fact, I'm not sure why arming oneself obviates access to human rights. If a civilian fights back, your troops may respond in kind, with lethal force if necessary. Otherwise, what does their property have to do with anything?"

And the burning or destruction of historical documents should be banded

"That is actually a separate issue I am currently drafting on the side, so the attempt is being made to address this, just not in this draft. I do appreciate your concern, though."

"TPI will be willing to "consider" these guidlines during its next exercise in conquest, but seeks not to be held to the unfair scrutinty of the international community of the actions our soldiers partake in." - Ron Jakowski, TPI consultant

"Ambassador, I have no idea what you mean. Should this pass, these will be laws, not guidelines, and member states will be held responsible for the actions of their soldiers."

[Trevor Phillip Enterprises]

"TPI will be willing to "consider" these guidlines during its next exercise in conquest, but seeks not to be held to the unfair scrutinty of the international community of the actions our soldiers partake in." - Ron Jakowski, TPI consultant

"Ambassador, I have no idea what you mean. Should this pass, these will be laws, not guidelines, and member states will be held responsible for the actions of their soldiers."

"Ok, let me put it in a language your retarded ambassador can understand. F*ck this legislation ... F*ck the rules ... and F*CK YOU TO HELL AND BACK!! You can't tell us to do sh*t!" - Trevor Phillips

"Look, you don't wannt make Trevor mad" said Ron, with desperation. "Could you just make an exception for us, please? That way we can all win." - Ron Jakowski

[The new unitary state]

I agree stealing is wrong but soldiers can't be held responsible for what they do in times of defense or stress because u can't tell them well that man shot at u and killed ur friend but don't go burn his stuff in retailiation cause in rage all bets are off

U also have the right to go along with what plp say and not try and kill them

[The new unitary state]

If u don't like the legislation join a non member group

[Separatist Peoples]

"Ambassador, I have no idea what you mean. Should this pass, these will be laws, not guidelines, and member states will be held responsible for the actions of their soldiers."

"Ok, let me put it in a language your retarded ambassador can understand. F*ck this legislation ... F*ck the rules and F*CK YOU!! You can't tell us to do sh*t!" - Trevor Phillips

"Look, you don't wannt make Trevor mad" said Ron, with desperation. "Could you just make an exception for us, please? That way we can all win." - Ron Jakowski

"Exceptions are illegal, and I wouldn't even if I could."

I agree stealing is wrong but soldiers can't be held responsible for what they do in times of defense or stress because u can't tell them well that man shot at u and killed ur friend but don't go burn his stuff in retailiation cause in rage all bets are off

U also have the right to go along with what plp say and not try and kill them

"Retribution is not self defense, and does nothing but serve as a means to hurt civilians. Your example is fairly out of touch with normal customs of war, and has no value to anybody but those who would abuse it."

[The new unitary state]

I agree but I'm just saying it should be more lesbian the because plp will do things like toss an incenarry grenade in a house to kill the hostile but it ends up burning the house down and that if plps life are on the line they'll probly shoot first blow things up and worry about laws later

[The new unitary state]

Typo lenient

[The Empire of Ebola]

I agree but I'm just saying it should be more lesbian the because plp will do things like toss an incenarry grenade in a house to kill the hostile but it ends up burning the house down and that if plps life are on the line they'll probly shoot first blow things up and worry about laws later

more lesbian?


how....what........you know what, nevermind

[The new unitary state]

We'll that typo runed my argument

[Separatist Peoples]

I agree but I'm just saying it should be more lesbian the because plp will do things like toss an incenarry grenade in a house to kill the hostile but it ends up burning the house down and that if plps life are on the line they'll probly shoot first blow things up and worry about laws later

"If your soldiers are so poorly trained that they are unable to differentiate between self-defense, a legitimate means of response to a threat, and reprisal, an escalation of violence, then you should a least invest in a strong legal team should this pass. The two are on opposite ends of the force continuum."

OOC: you do know that Real World soldiers successfully obey similar laws literally all the time, right?

[Separatist Peoples]

"I don't suppose anybody has any issues with the command responsibility clauses? I'm concerned about whether they're too strong and fail to allow for cases where violations occur in the process of executing otherwise legitimate orders by, say, overexcited subordinates. I don't think it's an issue, but I hardly count myself as the ultimate source of unbiased opinion."

[The Dark Star Republic]

"Here's what we used with respect to command responsibility in Prevention of Torture:

8. An order to commit torture is a manifestly illegal order, and must be refused; such orders may be disobeyed without fear of legal penalty. Coercion may be considered as a mitigating circumstance in the prosecution of acts of torture committed by subordinates following orders.

"But that was in a different era of the WA. I don't know whether the orcs would allow such language today.

"Now if you'll excuse me, I'm on my way to represent GnomeBurger in a wrongful death suit against...what kind of name is 'Fungschlammer'!?"

-- Samantha Benson
Associate Counsel, Lawfirm of "WA Lawyers Inc."

[Normlpeople]

"I had considered that, the C.D.S.P. having more privately owned firearms than citizens. I believe that such an issue isn't as large as you might consider; the disarming of citizens is a lengthily, difficult proccess, as areas where access to weaponry is easy tend to incite a strong attachment to them, such a behavior would be strategically best suited for an occupation, and not an invasion, a time where the authority of rule is already in great flux. I doubt that such an incident would be especially prevalent before a occupation, and dealing with rights and duties in occupations is a separate project of mine.

"However, that is a legitimate concern. One could always interpret the term "essential for immediate military operations" to include firearms, as even civilian weapons can be used in a military fashion. There is, of necessity, some flexibility in that interpretation.

"So, now that I've waxed on and given no solid answer, I'll throw you the bone I was driving at before explaining my full intentions and thinking: between the flexibility in I.2's wording and the potential addition of the caveat "subject to WA law" to allow for clarification on confiscation during bona fide occupations, where the threat is more credible, do you think enough middle ground can be reached to address your concerns?"

"I must apologize Ambassador Bell, I have been very busy with domestic issues and completely missed your answer here. Te current wording in clause 2 would be sufficient to address my concerns regarding this particular issue.

As far as your comment regarding command responsibility, perhaps re-wording it to include something about requiring the commanding officer to have prior knowledge of the event, and requiring only those complacent in the actions to be punished as well? The CO could deny knowledge, however, legal systems will have mechanisms in place to test that claim, and it would serve to punish the ones responsible for ordering looting while providing relief to those who legitimately did not know what was taking place."

[Kingdom of Plembobria]

I support this.

[Federation Of The Donut]

I think that Pillaging is necessary to the military health of any and all nations.

[Defwa]

I think that Pillaging is necessary to the military health of any and all nations.

So you're okay with your soldiers randomly stealing cultural artifacts, food, jewelry, and personal electronics from citizens under occupation because your military needs those to keep up.

[Trevor Phillip Enterprises]

I think that Pillaging is necessary to the military health of any and all nations.

So you're okay with your soldiers randomly stealing cultural artifacts, food, jewelry, and personal electronics from citizens under occupation because your military needs those to keep up.

Yes

[Separatist Peoples]

So you're okay with your soldiers randomly stealing cultural artifacts, food, jewelry, and personal electronics from citizens under occupation because your military needs those to keep up.

Yes

OOC: militaries in the real world do fine without. Pretending otherwise isn't just dumb, it's ignorant. Why should this magically be necessary in NationStates?

[Defwa]

So you're okay with your soldiers randomly stealing cultural artifacts, food, jewelry, and personal electronics from citizens under occupation because your military needs those to keep up.

Yes

Sounds to me like poorly planned or chosen conquest if you have to resort to being basically pirates

[Trevor Phillip Enterprises]

Yes

Sounds to me like poorly planned or chosen conquest if you have to resort to being basically pirates

We are all about poorly planned conquests baby...

[Point Breeze]

WARNING: Not a representation of RL views, but that of a psychotic, sociopathic murderer with daddy issues!

I love this game.

[Separatist Peoples]

WARNING: Not a representation of RL views, but that of a psychotic, sociopathic murderer with daddy issues!

OOC: ah, excellent to know. Ridiculous opposition based only on extreme RPing isn't helpful. Were you a nation with, say, a particular species or political situation who's existence required extenuating reasonable rewrites, I'd be happy to hear you out. Playing the psychopath is just a good way to waste my time.

[Federation Of The Donut]

So you're okay with your soldiers randomly stealing cultural artifacts, food, jewelry, and personal electronics from citizens under occupation because your military needs those to keep up.

In a word YES! although I do not have daddy issues. Even though it isn't necessary it sure is fun .PIRACY FOR TEH WIN!

[Separatist Peoples]

So you're okay with your soldiers randomly stealing cultural artifacts, food, jewelry, and personal electronics from citizens under occupation because your military needs those to keep up.

In a word YES! although I do not have daddy issues. Even though it isn't necessary it sure is fun .PIRACY FOR TEH WIN!

OOC: I'm going to keep a tally to count how many times I've said this, but you do realize that Real Life soldiers are bound by the same laws, and it doesn't at all impede their ability to conduct a successful campaign, right? In fact, by not pissing off the natives, your commanders will have a more successful campaign.

[Defwa]

So you're okay with your soldiers randomly stealing cultural artifacts, food, jewelry, and personal electronics from citizens under occupation because your military needs those to keep up.

In a word YES! although I do not have daddy issues. Even though it isn't necessary it sure is fun .PIRACY FOR TEH WIN!

OOC honey, this is a role playing board. Unless your ambassador is also thirteen, make sure you keep some illusion of adult hood