[PASSED] Wartime Looting and Pillage

[Eastern Coastal Dragvania]

Strictly because i like the idea of my troops taking random stuff and using it to modify their base equipment provided i stand against it, i accept all the other repercussions that would also bring from other much more aggressive nations. My military force is kept in check and they are only allowed to take what is needed. i do not allow them to abuse the current loop hole in the WA and honestly, wont the nations that REALLY stand against the WA on laws like this just not be a part of it period therefore they have not agreed to follow these legislations that have been proposed and they likely wont follow them.

[Araraukar]

OOC: I’m struggling to see how, assuming the conflict is OOCly agreed upon and can therefore happen, what I spelled out isn’t possible.

OOC: If it's OOCly agreed on, yes. Otherwise it's just "I'm right, you're wrong", when it's 2 people with different ideas of RPing a conflict. (The peaceful one would probably go in NS as some sort of diplomacy/cultural RP, the warlike in II - in case someone reading this was wondering.) But saying "your way can't work because reasons" in IC is... not exactly wankery, but brutality by the majority (of people that like war solutions to diplomatic ones), maybe.

I'm not disagreeing with the proposal, useless though it may be, just pointing out that piling on someone that decides to go for "soft power" is not fair just because you (the plural "you", not SP alone) like "hard solutions" with weaponry stats.

[DerkaDerka Stan]

Strictly because i like the idea of my troops taking random stuff and using it to modify their base equipment provided i stand against it, i accept all the other repercussions that would also bring from other much more aggressive nations. My military force is kept in check and they are only allowed to take what is needed. i do not allow them to abuse the current loop hole in the WA and honestly, wont the nations that REALLY stand against the WA on laws like this just not be a part of it period therefore they have not agreed to follow these legislations that have been proposed and they likely wont follow them.

I agree with Eastern Coastal Dragvania on his stance but, I beleive that any Nation that does not comply with the WA and they're Legislations need to be wiped away from the planet we call earth or at the least just an Exile.

[Araraukar]

I agree with Eastern Coastal Dragvania on his stance but, I beleive that any Nation that does not comply with the WA and they're Legislations need to be wiped away from the planet we call earth or at the least just an Exile.

"Oh please, you talk like there was just one planet the WA nations were on... You realize that some nations here span one or multiple galaxies?"

OOC: Also, there's a WA law against genocide, so you'd be breaking the WA law to wipe off a nation not following the WA law...

[Separatist Peoples]

The resolution says war is a necessity. We reiterate that it is not necessary.

We think it arbitrary to declare that the owners should be left essential supplies for their basic upkeep. How is this defined? How are belligerents supposed to make sure that they have left necessary provisions for enemy combatants? Call up the international community in a fire-fight to make sure it's fine and dandy? Why is it OK to loot food and water as long as it isn't marked as humanitarian aid?

"Maybe for you. We find it exceedingly necessary. But since it's winning, you'll just have to accept that the WA recognizes warfare as such.

As to your questions: common sense, you don't have to supply combatants, since this law strictly mentions noncombatants, only the incompetent would need to do that, and because humanitarian supplies are, by design, designated for relief efforts, not military supply. Your arguments against this border on the inane, ambassador."

[Separatist Peoples]

Strictly because i like the idea of my troops taking random stuff and using it to modify their base equipment provided i stand against it, i accept all the other repercussions that would also bring from other much more aggressive nations. My military force is kept in check and they are only allowed to take what is needed. i do not allow them to abuse the current loop hole in the WA and honestly, wont the nations that REALLY stand against the WA on laws like this just not be a part of it period therefore they have not agreed to follow these legislations that have been proposed and they likely wont follow them.

"If you don't obey the law, why are you even a member? What's more, why should any nation, not just yours, who is routinely noncompliant expect those of us who are compliant to cede any legislative ground? There seems to be a lot of this sentiment and it simply makes no sense to me."

[Sciongrad]

"Another exemplary resolution by his Excellency of the CDSP. Sciongrad heartily votes aye and wishes ambassador Bell the best of luck."

[Iblania]

The resolution says war is a necessity. We reiterate that it is not necessary.

We think it arbitrary to declare that the owners should be left essential supplies for their basic upkeep. How is this defined? How are belligerents supposed to make sure that they have left necessary provisions for enemy combatants? Call up the international community in a fire-fight to make sure it's fine and dandy? Why is it OK to loot food and water as long as it isn't marked as humanitarian aid?

I think we could interpret this as military conflict being necessary in certain situations. While diplomacy is always preferable, there are cases where the enemy will simply refuse communication, and to not retaliate with military action would be suicide. Is it possible to edit the proposal to include "in some cases" once it has reached voting? (Yes, I'm new around here)

As for whether the supplies are considered "essential", that's really up to common sense...

Things like the last remaining bottle of water in an isolated household are essential for the civilians, but not the soldiers.

Things like the friendly neighborhood stockpile of ammunition are not essential for the civilians. They are essential for the soldiers if they have an upcoming conflict, and supplies won't make it in time.

[Jean Pierre Trudeau]

"Another exemplary resolution by his Excellency of the CDSP. Sciongrad heartily votes aye and wishes ambassador Bell the best of luck."

Good to see you back Ambassador Santos.

[Normlpeople]

Clover chuckled "I expected the resistance to come from the warlords of the assembly, not the idealists who believe this advocates war. In any case, it would seem I owe Ambassador Bell another bottle of the good stuff."

[Nidajogai]

Vote against, we have the right as invaders to pillagevlike vikings!

[Imperium Anglorum]

Clover chuckled "I expected the resistance to come from the warlords of the assembly, not the idealists who believe this advocates war. In any case, it would seem I owe Ambassador Bell another bottle of the good stuff."

Looks like fate just stepped there.

[Araraukar]

Is it possible to edit the proposal to include "in some cases" once it has reached voting? (Yes, I'm new around here)

OOC: Once you submit, no changes can be made anymore.

[Separatist Peoples]

I think we could interpret this as military conflict being necessary in certain situations. While diplomacy is always preferable, there are cases where the enemy will simply refuse communication, and to not retaliate with military action would be suicide.

"Indeed. And, given the number of protests along that vein in this debate, I can't see now anybody can find armed conflict any less than inevitable. Numerous representatives have openly claimed to be in direct violation of a number of resolutions, and openly contemptuous of basic rules of war and human rights. Clearly, for them, violence is the only aim."

[Bubba Reb]

Look here Jack, I aint readin eighty-leven pages of replies so if some genius has already said what I'm about ta say, well, it probly needs sayin again anyways....

I WILL NOT abide by this well intentioned but horribly thought out buncha mumbo jumbo.

Why? Well think about about it Einstein! If enemy troops know you wont destroy a dang statue or some fancy picture, they gonna start shootin at your ignorant carcass from behind that statue!

You got sorry scumbags shootin at you from inside a dadgum art museum, a church, or some colesium full of nekid maniquins and golden carved doohikies and you caint take em out for fear of tearin up some "priceless" crayon drawin or shootin the danglies off of ol king Whocares statue?

You dumber than a bag of hammers Jack!

If tommy terrorist is hidin his turd squad in a buildin full of "artifacts" while shootin an my troops or civilians, we gunna turn that buildin into toothpicks and the turd squad into ketchup if we have to, and aint no ignorant resolution more valuable than our troops or civilians lives.

All you people for this need to switcharoo your vote around and use some dadgum common sense until a new one is proposed that aint so ignorant.

[Araraukar]

Why? Well think about about it Einstein! If enemy troops know you wont destroy a dang statue or some fancy picture, they gonna start shootin at your ignorant carcass from behind that statue!

I think you're grossly (and possibly intentionally) misunderstanding the idea behind this proposal...

OOC EDIT: Or posting on the wrong thread, since this sounds more like belonging in here.

[Separatist Peoples]

Look here Jack, I aint readin eighty-leven pages of replies so if some genius has already said what I'm about ta say, well, it probly needs sayin again anyways....

I WILL NOT abide by this well intentioned but horribly thought out buncha mumbo jumbo.

Why? Well think about about it Einstein! If enemy troops know you wont destroy a dang statue or some fancy picture, they gonna start shootin at your ignorant carcass from behind that statue!

You got sorry scumbags shootin at you from inside a dadgum art museum, a church, or some colesium full of nekid maniquins and golden carved doohikies and you caint take em out for fear of tearin up some "priceless" crayon drawin or shootin the danglies off of ol king Whocares statue?

You dumber than a bag of hammers Jack!

If tommy terrorist is hidin his turd squad in a buildin full of "artifacts" while shootin an my troops or civilians, we gunna turn that buildin into toothpicks and the turd squad into ketchup if we have to, and aint no ignorant resolution more valuable than our troops or civilians lives.

All you people for this need to switcharoo your vote around and use some dadgum common sense until a new one is proposed that aint so ignorant.

"There's already a resolution to deal with that exact problem. Try again."

[Bubba Reb]

Why? Well think about about it Einstein! If enemy troops know you wont destroy a dang statue or some fancy picture, they gonna start shootin at your ignorant carcass from behind that statue!

I think you're grossly (and possibly intentionally) misunderstanding the idea behind this proposal...

OOC EDIT: Or posting on the wrong thread, since this sounds more like belonging in here.

Aint no misunderstandin here Jack! The deal says ya caint bust up artufacts, art, and such. Well, some people dont care bout laws, and they'll use that agin ya. They'll shoot rockets out of school yards knowin you wont shoot back. They'll shoot machineguns from mosques knowin you wont destroy it. They'll put snipers in belltowers knowin you wont ring their bell.

This here deal makes it a war crime to fire back at them suckers. It should not be passed as it is. It should be rejected, modified, and then voted on.
No misunderstandin about it.

((OOC Seeing as how the reply is discussing the issue at vote, and offering an argument against it in its current form, I assumed this was the place to post it. If I assumed wrong, please let me know.))

[Defwa]

Perhaps you would do better to show us what lines in the proposal make your statements relevant as it is not clear.

[Separatist Peoples]

I think you're grossly (and possibly intentionally) misunderstanding the idea behind this proposal...

OOC EDIT: Or posting on the wrong thread, since this sounds more like belonging in here.

Aint no misunderstandin here Jack! The deal says ya caint bust up artufacts, art, and such. Well, some people dont care bout laws, and they'll use that agin ya. They'll shoot rockets out of school yards knowin you wont shoot back. They'll shoot machineguns from mosques knowin you wont destroy it. They'll put snipers in belltowers knowin you wont ring their bell.

This here deal makes it a war crime to fire back at them suckers. It should not be passed as it is. It should be rejected, modified, and then voted on.
No misunderstandin about it.

((OOC Seeing as how the reply is discussing the issue at vote, and offering an argument against it in its current form, I assumed this was the place to post it. If I assumed wrong, please let me know.))

"You can shoot back. You just have to pay compensation to the state for damages incurred. A fair compromise."

[Drewlantis]

"I unfortunately must cast my vote against this resolution, due to the fact that my Emperor has a standing order of artifact hunting. It's a form of taxation as well as being a reminder to the occupied people who is in charge.

“This really isn’t supposed to deal with occupations, so I’m not sure I can argue on that front effectively, but I’m struggling to see how seizing cultural treasures as a form of reprisal is in any way morally acceptable.

We take many "artifacts" of our enemies because we wish to engage in a cultural conquest, in order to promote Drewlantian ideals and encourage the natives of occupied provinces of the Empire to embrace our ideals rather than that of their own.

“No doubt violating several WA laws on cultural heritage protection in the process. Holding a population essentially hostage by seizing their artefacts is an excellent way to galvanize them against your culture instead of winning them over by it. It also, no doubt, ruins copious amounts of valuable, researchable material in the process, losing countless centuries of knowledge and rich culture. On the whole, the Empire should count itself lucky that it hasn’t attempted to encroach on any Confederate Dominion territory with its cultural conquest: Not all societies are willing to accept such a base insult to their very identity.

The cultural aversion they have to us sometimes jeopardizes the smooth transition of power and so we make it a habit to strip away some of their culture in order to promote stability and cooperation."

“Sounds like a violation of Freedom of Expression and Charter on Civil Rights. As a rule, this delegation makes no allowances for violators of international law in its drafts. Terribly sorry.”

"It does not violate international law so long as it is considered a form of taxation and not subsequent seizure and destruction. In the Empire we utilize the artifacts we collect, so their is no waste or Iconoclasm, which we do not support. (Another reason we do not carpet bomb). Also, my Empire and that of many others in the GA aren't really all that moral.. I apologize for such, but the literal motto of our Empire is 'Nation before All' and we aren't altogether protective or moral in our warfare. We value practicality over morality in our warfare and government." Ambassador Burgenheimer pauses and frowns at Ambassador Bell. "Why do we disagree so much?"

[Drewlantis]

Aint no misunderstandin here Jack! The deal says ya caint bust up artufacts, art, and such. Well, some people dont care bout laws, and they'll use that agin ya. They'll shoot rockets out of school yards knowin you wont shoot back. They'll shoot machineguns from mosques knowin you wont destroy it. They'll put snipers in belltowers knowin you wont ring their bell.

This here deal makes it a war crime to fire back at them suckers. It should not be passed as it is. It should be rejected, modified, and then voted on.
No misunderstandin about it.

((OOC Seeing as how the reply is discussing the issue at vote, and offering an argument against it in its current form, I assumed this was the place to post it. If I assumed wrong, please let me know.))

"You can shoot back. You just have to pay compensation to the state for damages incurred. A fair compromise."

"What if there is no state left? To the general public then? But, how is such divided and fairly and justly distributed? If there is a conquest that destroys artifacts, even willingly such as iconoclasm, and they absorb the previous state, then they are the owners of the artifacts and must pay compensation to themselves. If I understand correctly." Burgenheimer stands and faces the window overlooking the courtyard of the Imperial Fortress, which has statues and other artwork adorning it. "These artifacts, they belong to the Empire now, because there is no nation left where they were taken from, just the Empire. If the Emperor wishes to destroy these artifacts, which he owns now, then he can. He will never do so, but this is the taxation we've imposed on the people, and it belongs to the Emperor."

[Bubba Reb]

Look here Jack, I aint readin eighty-leven pages of replies so if some genius has already said what I'm about ta say, well, it probly needs sayin again anyways....

I WILL NOT abide by this well intentioned but horribly thought out buncha mumbo jumbo.

Why? Well think about about it Einstein! If enemy troops know you wont destroy a dang statue or some fancy picture, they gonna start shootin at your ignorant carcass from behind that statue!

You got sorry scumbags shootin at you from inside a dadgum art museum, a church, or some colesium full of nekid maniquins and golden carved doohikies and you caint take em out for fear of tearin up some "priceless" crayon drawin or shootin the danglies off of ol king Whocares statue?

You dumber than a bag of hammers Jack!

If tommy terrorist is hidin his turd squad in a buildin full of "artifacts" while shootin an my troops or civilians, we gunna turn that buildin into toothpicks and the turd squad into ketchup if we have to, and aint no ignorant resolution more valuable than our troops or civilians lives.

All you people for this need to switcharoo your vote around and use some dadgum common sense until a new one is proposed that aint so ignorant.

"There's already a resolution to deal with that exact problem. Try again."

Well excuuuuse me Dr. Arrogant. Mayhaps you could work on yer readin comprehension so's you'd see where I said "maybe somebody already said somthin bout this".

There's a resolution. Good fer you. You win the "if it rained I'd drown" award fer bein so proud o yerself you got yer nostrils firmly shoved up in the stratosphere.

Maybe if ya werent so full o yerself you'd have have said they is sombody workin on that an put one o them link doohickies up so's we could go put eyes on it.

But naw, youd rather sound all snooty wit yer "try again" nonsense.

Heh heh... some o these goofytard, high falootin, fancy pants, "civilised" folks shore do sound silly when they git their panties in a bunch.

[Drewlantis]

Well excuuuuse me Dr. Arrogant. Mayhaps you could work on yer readin comprehension so's you'd see where I said "maybe somebody already said somthin bout this".

There's a resolution. Good fer you. You win the "if it rained I'd drown" award fer bein so proud o yerself you got yer nostrils firmly shoved up in the stratosphere.

Maybe if ya werent so full o yerself you'd have have said they is sombody workin on that an put one o them link doohickies up so's we could go put eyes on it.

But naw, youd rather sound all snooty wit yer "try again" nonsense.

Heh heh... some o these goofytard, high falootin, fancy pants, "civilised" folks shore do sound silly when they git their panties in a bunch.

"Yet another case of fighting fire with fire.." Ambassador Burgenheimer looks at the representative from Bubba Reb cautiously and nods to several soldiers from the Praetorian Guard to step in closer to the Ambassador. "I can understand disagreement gentlemen, but let's not stoop to name calling or baiting please."

[Separatist Peoples]

"It does not violate international law so long as it is considered a form of taxation and not subsequent seizure and destruction. In the Empire we utilize the artifacts we collect, so their is no waste or Iconoclasm, which we do not support. (Another reason we do not carpet bomb). Also, my Empire and that of many others in the GA aren't really all that moral.. I apologize for such, but the literal motto of our Empire is 'Nation before All' and we aren't altogether protective or moral in our warfare. We value practicality over morality in our warfare and government." Ambassador Burgenheimer pauses and frowns at Ambassador Bell. "Why do we disagree so much?"

“Probably because your government, generally, and your delegation, specifically, both “…aren’t really all that moral…”, and find it somehow impossible to achieve similar aims without trampling on the basic rights and needs of individuals. Considering theft of objects a tax does not make it legal any more than considering, say, torture legal by considering it a sociological experiment, or exercise. The C.D.S.P. is no less patriotic and devoted to victory in a military sense than the Empire is, but we, at least, are willing to treat the citizens of our enemies as human beings with rights. Your callous attitude towards life and your specious justifications for that attitude, rife with appeals to an authority unrecognized by most other governments, is not one I can happily find myself in agreement with. I mean no insult, I only speak plainly."

What if there is no state left? To the general public then? But, how is such divided and fairly and justly distributed? If there is a conquest that destroys artifacts, even willingly such as iconoclasm, and they absorb the previous state, then they are the owners of the artifacts and must pay compensation to themselves.

“As far as compensation goes, holding it in trust for the next government would be an option. Paying the actual holding facility, such as the museum or estate, would be another option. It is deliberately left open for interpretation.”

If I understand correctly." Burgenheimer stands and faces the window overlooking the courtyard of the Imperial Fortress, which has statues and other artwork adorning it. "These artifacts, they belong to the Empire now, because there is no nation left where they were taken from, just the Empire. If the Emperor wishes to destroy these artifacts, which he owns now, then he can. He will never do so, but this is the taxation we've imposed on the people, and it belongs to the Emperor."

“You are correct, annexation would make those artifacts, essentially, yours to own. However, annexation and formal inclusion such that you aren’t violating certain non-discrimination laws would be a lengthy and expensive process, and your destruction of said artefacts would have to be non-discriminatory in nature. Not something I assume can be easily done. It would be easier to simply store them in a facility indefinitely.” he replies to what must be a telescreen connecting the Drewlantian to the rest of the General Assembly, there being no Imperial Fortress on the grounds of the WAHQ. Bell chuckles, “There are few laws on the concept of annexation, and it is, I promise you, not a topic I want to be even remotely involved with.”

Well excuuuuse me Dr. Arrogant. Mayhaps you could work on yer readin comprehension so's you'd see where I said "maybe somebody already said somthin bout this".

There's a resolution. Good fer you. You win the "if it rained I'd drown" award fer bein so proud o yerself you got yer nostrils firmly shoved up in the stratosphere.

Maybe if ya werent so full o yerself you'd have have said they is sombody workin on that an put one o them link doohickies up so's we could go put eyes on it.

But naw, youd rather sound all snooty wit yer "try again" nonsense.

Heh heh... some o these goofytard, high falootin, fancy pants, "civilised" folks shore do sound silly when they git their panties in a bunch.

“If you cannot be bothered to read through the debate transcript, I don’t see why anybody should bother to read through your responses. Being arrogant doesn’t absolve me of being correct, though I struggle to see how my response was arrogant. Snarky, perhaps, but not arrogant.”

"Yet another case of fighting fire with fire.." Ambassador Burgenheimer looks at the representative from Bubba Reb cautiously and nods to several soldiers from the Praetorian Guard to step in closer to the Ambassador. "I can understand disagreement gentlemen, but let's not stoop to name calling or baiting please."

“Its status quo, ambassador. I’d let it go, it’s honestly not worth any effort. I am curious, though, why you are allowed a contingency of soldiers to enforce your own perception of the codes of conduct in this facility. Last I checked, the Drewlantians were not employees of the General Assembly Headquarters…”