[PASSED] Debris Prevention

[Hakio]

"Am I the only one who thinks that a region as large as yours only paying attention to those who post in your unnecessary forums is not representative of the overall feel of all your nations. Your sample size is too small to make up an accurate representation of your region."

The exact same thing can be said for these forums. There is a handful of people posting here, the vast majority of whom are outsiders to TNP. The WA forum sample is, overall, hardly representative of TNP's 600+ WA nations. It is also less representative than the sample from TNP's forum - at least those voters are all TNPers.

I, at least, am proactive about inviting our WA nations to determine my vote, by advertising our forum polls non-stop in our RMB, WFE, regional mass-telegrams, and personal correspondence I exchange with our nations.

It is also worth noting that almost always the regional individual vote aligns with mine, and usually by a very wide margin. So a majority of the nations that vote agree with the way I vote. That's got to be representative of something.

OOC: I've only seen about 3 people posting on your offsite forums. The simple fact is that nobody likes them and that the game's forums are much more active.

IC: Sia stumbles past the delegate drunkenly and slurs her words:
"We still support you Defwa! These are the types of things that lead me to drink. Thanks a lot, delegates!" Sia continuously drinks until she stumbles and passes out.

[HMS Unicorn]

Chester Pearson in particular has also made sure in the past to have his WA nation in TNP when his proposals went to vote, so that he could take part in our forum polls.

Are you going to get the facts straight any time soon? When I passed the CWP, was I a member of the TNP? No, and in fact I called McMaster, and most of the other big delegates out for voting against their regional wishes. Was I there when I passed the CWA? Once again, I don't think so Tim.

I was there when the NSC passed, but that was a coincidence, as me and Aba also happen to be in game friends, and wrote the thing collaboratively. The fact that you voted for the NSC meant nothing really, as it passed by a landslide anyway, and you were a day late on voting.

If you want to call me out, at least get your facts straight, or stay on your own forum....

My facts are perfectly straight. During my term: 1) You frequently post in our WA forum and vote in our threads. 2) You campaigned for the NSC in our forum. 3) You moved your WA nation in TNP shortly before the NSC vote, and left shortly after. You call it a coincidence, I call it convenient.

What you did before my term does not concern me, and I did not make any claims about it. And the effect of my vote for the NSC is not relevant to this conversation, but your appreciation of my support is noted.

Uh huh...

Amongst The North Pacific residents, voting is currently 57-81 (58% Against).

Yep, your six hundred voters are sure making a difference here.

I umm... am not sure how this is relevant to what I said or the discussion in general. I'd suggest you read again Hakio's and my posts, as you seem to have misunderstood them

It sure is representative of something. It is called the lemming effect. You should know all about it, as you rely on it....

Lemming effect or not, it shows that the region is in general supportive of the way I vote.

[Hakio]

instructing us to lick his boots

OOC: Let's listen to Mall and stop threadjacking guys.

[HMS Unicorn]

Aye, apologies, I posted before I saw Mall's post.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

OOC: Not that the mods require help to enforce their directives, but...Mall asked us to stop the voting-system threadjack. How a delegate chose to vote on this resolution is a somewhat peripheral, but entirely relevant, point of discussion here. [/player opinion]

[Defwa]

OOC: I'm waiting on administrative approval to post in the TNP forum where I have applied as AMB Landfree. To expedite the process, I will be replying here first.
EDIT: Note: I'm okay with the threadjack, if that means anything. I want this to be an open forum that encourages discussion to move fluidly.
EDIT: EDIT: Note: Note: I'm actually okay with the external forum campaign too. I do confess I personally feel it is a little elitist as others have stated to insist that others come to you or you'll assume the worst without doing the author the courtesy of complaining first. But I like how it's actually really realistic.

From HMS Unicorn

1) It is not clear whether destruction of space objects is permitted for defensive purposes, especially in the event of unprovoked aggression (i.e., before war has been declared).

One of the best and worst things about space is it's size. In most cases, prior to an object in space posing a danger to another object, plenty of time will be available to detect the object, plot its course, and carry out needed solutions.
Under the WA definition of war, this kind of unprovoked and unexpected aggression is already illegal, but I've never been a fan of that. Anyway, because "declared act of war" is intentionally not defined, it really just means you need to file some paperwork and notify the victim.
Even better, Debris Removal will actually pay you for your trouble considering if that object is not going to move like it's supposed to, WASP will charge the owner and pay you for your expenses.

2) It is possible that, for the purposes of war, a nation may want to destroy space objects belonging to neutral states but heading towards an enemy nation. This could be, for example, to enforce a boycott, or as a counter-intelligence measure. Again, it is not clear whether the last clause permits this.

If you can prove the object is "servic[ing] or benefit[ing] the enemy", this resolution will not impede you. I'm not sure exactly how to apply your examples, however I believe that if the so called neutral vessel is carrying intelligence for your enemy or intending to break a blockade, it may not be considered neutral anymore so not even the Rights of Neutral States will stop you. Though I'm not an expert in that resolution.

3) The writing leaves a lot to be desired. There is a change in the verb style from "resolving" to "instructs", with the subject of the verbs never being clarified. Then the style changes further as we move to the "In order to" clause. The last clause seems grammatically incorrect, and even if it is correct, it is structured in a very confusing way that makes it hard to parse. And finally, there is a serious lack of punctuation.

The difference between "RESOLVING" and "INSTRUCTS" is preamble vs active clause. Fluff vs meat and potatoes. Doesn't really mean anything vs means something. I do confess that the last clause is odd- I could not find a way to reform the language without wasting precious space on repeating sentences. As far as the punctuation goes, it is where it needs to be but I do keep it minimum. I try to keep a lot of things minimum- being rid of useless formatting that doesn't contribute to readability, and such because I do have a problem with doing too much otherwise. If that bothers any more people than it apparently has, I may consider using more in the future but I have so far left it out as more of a stylistic choice.

From Separatist Peoples

Defwa has some great ideas, but, regrettably, submitted this before it was ready, I think. She has something of a vendetta against players who use WA puppets, and tried to shoehorn it in there, as well. I've voted against.

My issue really isn't with puppets. The issue is people who don't comply. Be they using embassy puppets to escape the gnomes or are just non WA nations. I want to try to add some benefit to membership in this organization. Directing social advancement is great but we really don't provide any motivation for people to join and comply when people can cherry pick. I'm hoping to add motivation (in Debris Removal) by making the WA a provider of services instead of just restrictions.

[Chester Pearson]

My facts are perfectly straight. During my term: 1) You frequently post in our WA forum and vote in our threads. 2) You campaigned for the NSC in our forum. 3) You moved your WA nation in TNP shortly before the NSC vote, and left shortly after. You call it a coincidence, I call it convenient.

Just to be clear here, so as I am not accused of anything else, will you show me where in this thread I campaigned for the NSC?

That said, I will now recuse myself from this nightmare, before I say something mean....

/sorry Mall, but I will defend myself.

[The Eternal Kawaii]

In the Name of the Eternal Kawaii, may the Cute One be praised

Ordinarily, we wait until the latter part of the voting period to cast ours. However, someone needs to make a stand against the lemmings here. Since Anime's early returns are strongly favoring this proposal, we vote Aye.

[Defwa]

All things considered, this is actually going really well.
About 3000 people remain unaccounted for and we're nearly even.

[Chester Pearson]

All things considered, this is actually going really well.
About 3000 people remain unaccounted for and we're nearly even.

If it wasn't for those pesky Delegates....

[Defwa]

All things considered, this is actually going really well.
About 3000 people remain unaccounted for and we're nearly even.

If it wasn't for those pesky Delegates....

Which I am working on. I now feel silly for not having considered going directly to them earlier. It really does only make sense [OOC From a role play perspective- really their forum appears to have almost no activity like most regional forums]

[Chester Pearson]

If it wasn't for those pesky Delegates....

Which I am working on. I now feel silly for not having considered going directly to them earlier. It really does only make sense [OOC From a role play perspective- really their forum appears to have almost no activity like most regional forums]

You didn't come to me directly, and I still approved it, and voted for it... Now my three votes mean nothing and I know that.

But if you would like, you can come over to our forum, and express your ideas.

[Separatist Peoples]

My issue really isn't with puppets. The issue is people who don't comply. Be they using embassy puppets to escape the gnomes or are just non WA nations. I want to try to add some benefit to membership in this organization. Directing social advancement is great but we really don't provide any motivation for people to join and comply when people can cherry pick. I'm hoping to add motivation (in Debris Removal) by making the WA a provider of services instead of just restrictions.

OOC: I understand entirely your angle. It's an approach I share. However, your compliance requirements translate to affecting those with wa puppets, like me and Ara. I RP creative noncompliance Lite (Laws of the Seas conflicts with many naval-heavy nations' claims) with this nation. You'd be ICly denying me access to this service over something unrelated.

People are going to avoid compliance. This is inevitable. Trying to force the issue will just hurt your draft.

[HMS Unicorn]

Just to be clear here, so as I am not accused of anything else, will you show me where in this thread I campaigned for the NSC?

That said, I will now recuse myself from this nightmare, before I say something mean....

/sorry Mall, but I will defend myself.

I've responded to this through telegram. Given Mall's post, I won't respond to Chester Pearson's other remarks. If he wants to address my points, he is welcome to start a new thread.

Defwa, thank you for being more reasonable than most of the people that have responded to my posts here. I have had an admin validate your account, you should be able to post directly in the vote thread in TNP now.

[Wrapper]

Regardless, we hope that the reason yakus is an ex nation has nothing to do with a falling space station.

OOC: DOS'd.

IC: The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper are decidedly undecided. While we agree with this proposal in principle, there are still a few flaws (OOC: including the apparent disdain of punctuation marks) that make this, hmmm, hard to swallow, so to speak. Accordingly, we have abstained from this vote, and encourage Ambassador Landfree to try again.

[Elke and Elba]

OOC: I have only half an idea what this is talking about - largely due to SL's nice little explanation (reminds me somewhat like the A340 and its engines), but the lack of punctuation irks me so much I've to cast a no vote.

Apologies in advance.

OOC:
In my opinion, it's actually pretty easy to understand.

OOC:
It is. On hindsight (went to read again - apologies, I'm having too little sleep these days).

But the point still stands (regarding Defwa) - if there's no effort to add just simple punctuations to break the thing up - like is convention not only here but IRL (the simple semi-colon or commas); I don't see why I should take the effort to read it in the first place.

[Butterbourne]

The delegation from the Commonwealth is pleased to hear that the World Assembly is taking steps to ensure that we are preserving our world for future generations.

We gladly vote YES to this resolution.

I speak on behalf of the Gambino region in saying that we WILL NOT pay for your bogus initiatives to "preserve the world for future generations."

[Yulis]

I am voting against this resolution. I agree with its concept, but nowhere does it actually require nations to remove debris already in orbit s
despite stating that it "resolves to reduce the amount of debris

And yes, I do know about Debris Removal (the proposal)

[Allied States of Demokratia]

-------Official Press Release------
From: Alvin C. Davenport, Senior Deputy Ambassador to the World Assembly, Allied States of Demokratia
To: Whom it may concern
Re: Debris Prevention
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Today, the Allied States of Demokratia lodged its vote in opposition of the Debris Prevention resolution. While the ASD supports the idea of prevention of space debris, this resolution currently counter acts our waste disposal method of shuttle launches, and further, impedes other manufacturing endeavors our nation is undertaking.

We applaud the creators of the resolution, and their intent, but at this time feel the resolution is ill conceived.

Questions regarding this release should be addressed to the Federation of the Allied States of Demokratia World Assembly Media Relations Bureau in Bunker Hill.

[Tzorsland]

TZORSLAND

OFFICIAL STATEMENT

Yes, yes, wonderful idea, except that a few things about this Web site tend your contradict your idealistic gameplay model. Namely, that NationStates is a:

1. game,
2. based on political satire,
3. specifically designed to be corrupt and unfair, and
4. never once intended to emulate a utopian political system.

Dispiriting, I know, but once you've been playing for nine or ten years, you tend to get used to the idea.

I wanted to switch over to my 10+ Year nation to post this as an official "Old Fart." This game is not meant to be fair. This game is not meant to be taken way to seriously. Nations are free to vote however they like and that includes delegates. If a region doesn't like the way a delegate votes, they are free to kick him out. (He is also free to come back with hundreds of his friends and stage a coup ... that's the NationStates way! Remember that every time you try to think this is supposed to be a fair and reasonable game God kills a cute kitten (who normally resides in the Stranger's Bar). THINK OF THE KITTENS!

Given that, the fact that this is an Environmental Manufacturing resolution on the technical side is why it is currently failing in both the delegate and non delegate counts (who really cares who has the biggest percentage). If you don't like these numbers well by golly, do it in the old fashioned Crony Capitalism way, buy some stamps and telegram people who actually matter. Don't whine about it in the forum.

Personally I think this should be passed. Personally, I've seen a lot of good resolutions not passed. And remember THINK OF THE KITTENS!

[Defwa]

My rebuttal to the concerns of the north Pacific have been posted on their official forum. Hopefully this means the needed votes (though I can't see their poll in thread so I don't know) at HMS unicorn can single handedly pass this resolution

My issue really isn't with puppets. The issue is people who don't comply. Be they using embassy puppets to escape the gnomes or are just non WA nations. I want to try to add some benefit to membership in this organization. Directing social advancement is great but we really don't provide any motivation for people to join and comply when people can cherry pick. I'm hoping to add motivation (in Debris Removal) by making the WA a provider of services instead of just restrictions.

OOC: I understand entirely your angle. It's an approach I share. However, your compliance requirements translate to affecting those with wa puppets, like me and Ara. I RP creative noncompliance Lite (Laws of the Seas conflicts with many naval-heavy nations' claims) with this nation. You'd be ICly denying me access to this service over something unrelated.

People are going to avoid compliance. This is inevitable. Trying to force the issue will just hurt your draft.

Creative compliance is not hurt by this as it is still technically compliance. Yes, I know insisting everyone follow the rules clearly lined out and joining the WA is unpopular. But we shouldn't have to worry about those that outright disobey considering the implications of their position

I am voting against this resolution. I agree with its concept, but nowhere does it actually require nations to remove debris already in orbit s
despite stating that it "resolves to reduce the amount of debris

And yes, I do know about Debris Removal (the proposal)

Perhaps backstory will win your support. There's a link in the first post to the original crafting thread- you'll note all the old drafts recorded there attempted to handle prevention, removal, rescue, and reparations in one go. Due to limitations in this assembly, however I could not do all of those subjects justice. The added benefit of dividing them up, though, is that if one is repealed, there is still some protection coming from the other. It really is better for everyone in the end.

-------Official Press Release------
From: Alvin C. Davenport, Senior Deputy Ambassador to the World Assembly, Allied States of Demokratia
To: Whom it may concern
Re: Debris Prevention
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Today, the Allied States of Demokratia lodged its vote in opposition of the Debris Prevention resolution. While the ASD supports the idea of prevention of space debris, this resolution currently counter acts our waste disposal method of shuttle launches, and further, impedes other manufacturing endeavors our nation is undertaking.

We applaud the creators of the resolution, and their intent, but at this time feel the resolution is ill conceived.

Questions regarding this release should be addressed to the Federation of the Allied States of Demokratia World Assembly Media Relations Bureau in Bunker Hill.

Perhaps if you could state exactly where this proposal would cause you problems, I could attempt to address your concerns.
This should be quite liberating as it does allow disposal to occur to any fashion so long as that fashion doesn't harm others or create future problems

[Mereon]

Seeing as the Republic of Mereon has already taken measures to curb space debris as detailed in CoC bill #501, "Prevention and Removal of Orbital Debris", and CoD bill #266, "Ban on Space Launch Systems (SLS) that Produce Significant Pollution", we shall be voting for this resolution.

[The New Fandom Republic]

The new fandom republic is a multiplanetary nation and I feel sorry to say our homeplanet's cosmospace is the most littered.
I hope that the vote comes around in favor of this resolution. The littered cosmospace is making trade with our capital more and more dangerous by the day. Not only that we have had a 1000 graves dug for space merchants for this year alone this year has been the safest compared to the years before. This proposal is very important for my nation.

[Applebania]

A new Applebanian ambassador walks into the hall, smoking a pipe. he takes it out to speak.

"Applebania supports the removal of debris from planetary orbits and interplanetary transport routes, though also disposes of much of its waste in areas of space outside of common transport routes, in what we refer to as spacefills. Nonetheless, we are voting in favour."

That would have been easy to include. Sorry I hadn't thought of it earlier.

He gives his pipe a good, long, huff.

"'Tis fine. We do have experimental technology that, if put into use, would result in waste being fired out of a cannon into the sun..."

OOC:

As for the great offsite forums debate, many of the super-large regions are GP-centered, and as such conduct nearly all of their business offsite. I should know, I'm in multiple!

[Panait]

The Panaitan ambassador would like to congratulate Defwa for the tides being turned. Seems like the campaigning in those offsite threads did the magic.