[SHELVED]Repeal GA Resolution #16

[Defwa]

You do realise that, being a repeal, this proposal would only repeal the former resolution and couldn't actually forbid inbreeding by those people -- or introduce any other new legislation, either -- as well? Hrright?
That being the case, the governments of nations with any people such as you describe in their populations would [of course] remain free to let those people continue breeding free of any consanguinity-based restrictions.

"Of course I realize it. The government of a country should not have any right to interfere with two consenting persons having sexual interaction with one another given that they are related," Sia explains her reasoning while drinking from her whiskey flask. "Incestuous couples are going to fuck whether you want them to or not. Thus, I believe that such a criticism is not enough to completely repeal a perfectly good resolution, just because some governments might want to act like dicks and try to control the sex lives of two consenting partners. Sure, incest does create more of a probability of producing offspring with defects, but it is up to their discretion whether or not they do not take proper precautions before sex."

The idea though is that some want to punish them for it.

[Hakio]

"Of course I realize it. The government of a country should not have any right to interfere with two consenting persons having sexual interaction with one another given that they are related," Sia explains her reasoning while drinking from her whiskey flask. "Incestuous couples are going to fuck whether you want them to or not. Thus, I believe that such a criticism is not enough to completely repeal a perfectly good resolution, just because some governments might want to act like dicks and try to control the sex lives of two consenting partners. Sure, incest does create more of a probability of producing offspring with defects, but it is up to their discretion whether or not they do not take proper precautions before sex."

The idea though is that some want to punish them for it.

"If you haven't studied the biology of all 74,328,037,122 sentient species here in the WA, then you would have to realize that this is rather pigeon-held to human concerns don't you?" Sia gives the Defwan ambassador, Dal Alexander Trahl, a huge book entitled The Complete Guide to Sentient Extraterrestrial Biology and Anatomy: 2014 Edition. "Seriously! Do you even science?" Sia excitedly snorts another line of cocaine.

[Defwa]

The idea though is that some want to punish them for it.

"If you haven't studied the biology of all 74,328,037,122 sentient species here in the WA, then you would have to realize that this is rather pigeon-held to human concerns don't you?" Sia gives the Defwan ambassador, Dal Alexander Trahl, a huge book entitled The Complete Guide to Sentient Extraterrestrial Biology and Anatomy: 2014 Edition. "Seriously! Do you even science?" Sia excitedly snorts another line of cocaine.

There are no plans I am aware of to ban incest internationally. But I do understand that some governments might want additional control. Its not common in Defwa, and is now a non issue when it happens considering readily available abortion when when an act results in deformity, so we have not bothered with it but I would not be surprised to hear it is a public health risk in some places.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Considering that the risk of genetic incest causes a vastly increased chance of damaged offspring, many of whom are unable to function independantly, and therefore result in a drain on state resources that could otherwise go to individuals with a chance of getting out of the welfare system, I'd say that the state has a pretty compelling interest in this issue. And, my dear Sia, don't start spouting off nonsense about this not being an issue if we just got rid of capitalism...I've heard enough economically-grounded ideological blather this week then I can handle. From both sides."

[Hakio]

"Considering that the risk of genetic incest causes a vastly increased chance of damaged offspring, many of whom are unable to function independantly, and therefore result in a drain on state resources that could otherwise go to individuals with a chance of getting out of the welfare system, I'd say that the state has a pretty compelling interest in this issue. And, my dear Sia, don't start spouting off nonsense about this not being an issue if we just got rid of capitalism...I've heard enough economically-grounded ideological blather this week then I can handle. From both sides."

"Well, I am a socialist, unlike the majority of my country back home who prefer the Liberal Industrial Party. They're liberalized capitalists," Sia states quickly high off of cocaine. "I'm sure some people back home in the R-PAC also have a problem with you treating the usage of money as an unquestioned necessity of governments. There are communes, socialist countries and other ideologies that seeks to get rid of money altogether-- like anarcho-primitivism. I would certainly state that there is a reason for government's to be concerned about these kinds of actions when they make children. Now, I am wondering if uh," Sia snaps her fingers neurotically attempting to jog her memory for the right words. "--if a penalty such as a fine for actions that may lead to defected children could be allowed under this resolution which is trying to be repealed? I would like to address the context of such a statement of prohibition."

[Defwa]

"Considering that the risk of genetic incest causes a vastly increased chance of damaged offspring, many of whom are unable to function independantly, and therefore result in a drain on state resources that could otherwise go to individuals with a chance of getting out of the welfare system, I'd say that the state has a pretty compelling interest in this issue. And, my dear Sia, don't start spouting off nonsense about this not being an issue if we just got rid of capitalism...I've heard enough economically-grounded ideological blather this week then I can handle. From both sides."

"Well, I am a socialist, unlike the majority of my country back home who prefer the Liberal Industrial Party. They're liberalized capitalists," Sia states quickly high off of cocaine. "I'm sure some people back home in the R-PAC also have a problem with you treating the usage of money as an unquestioned necessity of governments. There are communes, socialist countries and other ideologies that seeks to get rid of money altogether-- like anarcho-primitivism. I would certainly state that there is a reason for government's to be concerned about these kinds of actions when they make children. Now, I am wondering if uh," Sia snaps her fingers neurotically attempting to jog her memory for the right words. "--if a penalty such as a fine for actions that may lead to defected children could be allowed under this resolution which is trying to be repealed? I would like to address the context of such a statement of prohibition."

OOC
I've wondered that too. I'm not sure if it's legal considering how close that is to fining the act

[Separatist Peoples]

"Well, I am a socialist, unlike the majority of my country back home who prefer the Liberal Industrial Party. They're liberalized capitalists," Sia states quickly high off of cocaine. "I'm sure some people back home in the R-PAC also have a problem with you treating the usage of money as an unquestioned necessity of governments. There are communes, socialist countries and other ideologies that seeks to get rid of money altogether-- like anarcho-primitivism. I would certainly state that there is a reason for government's to be concerned about these kinds of actions when they make children. Now, I am wondering if uh," Sia snaps her fingers neurotically attempting to jog her memory for the right words. "--if a penalty such as a fine for actions that may lead to defected children could be allowed under this resolution which is trying to be repealed? I would like to address the context of such a statement of prohibition."

"Except money is the means by which most governments protect and assist their citizenry. Pretending it's a nonissue is downright ridiculous. Your government may seek to eliminate money, but the C.D.S.P. has no such goal. Why shouldn't a government have a say in a process that systematically creates drains on welfare and potentially propagates itself? That does nothing but harm the rest of society. It's the same reason many governments ban drugs, and I don't see people jumping at that prospect."

[Bananaistan]

"Considering that the risk of genetic incest causes a vastly increased chance of damaged offspring, many of whom are unable to function independantly, and therefore result in a drain on state resources that could otherwise go to individuals with a chance of getting out of the welfare system, I'd say that the state has a pretty compelling interest in this issue. And, my dear Sia, don't start spouting off nonsense about this not being an issue if we just got rid of capitalism...I've heard enough economically-grounded ideological blather this week then I can handle. From both sides."

OOC: I'd like to see the science on this. In a once off incestuous relationship (IE it's not something conducted over generations), just how much more likely is it that any child would have serious difficulties, relative to the general population?

IC: In any case, I suspect that the probabilities in all cases are tiny anyway and it's no good reason to permit nosy parkers and busy bodies poke their noses into people's bedrooms. It was a long, hard fight to get these bible bashers out of others' bedrooms, we are not likely to support any effort to allow them back in for something that is almost a non-issue and would be incredibly difficult to police without trampling all over the privacy of all sexually active couples.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Considering that the risk of genetic incest causes a vastly increased chance of damaged offspring, many of whom are unable to function independantly, and therefore result in a drain on state resources that could otherwise go to individuals with a chance of getting out of the welfare system, I'd say that the state has a pretty compelling interest in this issue. And, my dear Sia, don't start spouting off nonsense about this not being an issue if we just got rid of capitalism...I've heard enough economically-grounded ideological blather this week then I can handle. From both sides."

OOC: I'd like to see the science on this. In a once off incestuous relationship (IE it's not something conducted over generations), just how much more likely is it that any child would have serious difficulties, relative to the general population?

IC: In any case, I suspect that the probabilities in all cases are tiny anyway and it's no good reason to permit nosy parkers and busy bodies poke their noses into people's bedrooms. It was a long, hard fight to get these bible bashers out of others' bedrooms, we are not likely to support any effort to allow them back in for something that is almost a non-issue and would be incredibly difficult to police without trampling all over the privacy of all sexually active couples.

"It's hardly relevant how likely it is, that figure and intensity can change with the individuals and with the species involved. A facet many of those involved here so ardently defend. The state has an exceedingly strong interest in ensuring avoidable cases of pemenant disability with no chance of removing themselves from the welfare system, to the detriment of those who utilize it temporarily. If the disabled individual is further deemed incompetent, the process become even more expensive. This has nothing to do with supernatural stories and their gold-edged books, nor out of a sense of moral aversion to the deed. It is an ethical consideration based on the premise that the government exists to do the most good for the most people."

[Bananaistan]

It's a rather dangerous area for governments to get involved in. The government of Bananaistan would never presume to tell people they can or can't procreate because they have an increased likelihood of producing disabled offspring, regardless of whether it is an incestuous couple or not. And we will firmly stand against any international efforts which would lead to allowing individual countries such a choice.

This has lead us to firm up our position. We are strongly opposed to this repeal attempt. It would be a first step of the WA dictating who can and can't procreate.

[Separatist Peoples]

It's a rather dangerous area for governments to get involved in. The government of Bananaistan would never presume to tell people they can or can't procreate because they have an increased likelihood of producing disabled offspring, regardless of whether it is an incestuous couple or not. And we will firmly stand against any international efforts which would lead to allowing individual countries such a choice.

This has lead us to firm up our position. We are strongly opposed to this repeal attempt. It would be a first step of the WA dictating who can and can't procreate.

"The balancing act between individual freedom and the benefit of society is one that plagues all governments. I doubt that Bananaistan has never had to make difficult policy decisions themselves regarding this dichotomy. Public health is one arena where the needs of the many absolutely outweigh the needs of the few."

[Eireann Fae]

"Sir Theodorus raises a fine point," a young lady interjects, her familiar, if infrequent, voice rising once again in the halls of the General Assembly. The girl of fourteen years rises to her feet, the better to make known the opinion of her community's representative, the diminutive Faerie standing upon her shoulder. The girl's raven black hair is longer than ever, having never seen a razor, but is tied in intricate braids rather than falling simply down the length of her back. Her dress had similarly been updated from the simple shifts she'd worn in simpler times, the young adolescent now favouring a silken violet tunic with long sleeves and golden trim, cinched at her waist with a thick suede belt dyed to match. A skirt fashioned from the hide of a black panther hangs loosely to her knees, and black stockings end in a small pair of black leather boots with heels to add half a hand's breadth to the girl's height. Though her appearance was much changed from the last time she graced these halls, there ought yet be many to recognise the sparkling green eyes and polite demeanour of young Rowan, representative of the Community of Eireann Fae.

"There are many conditions under which a child may be born with severe disabilities - physical and mental alike. There are no resolutions to stop two people carrying a high likelihood of genetic abnormalities from breeding, even though their combined genetic disposition may make them more likely to produce malformed offspring than even the coupling of twins for several generations. It is simply not fair to deny siblings romantic relationships on the basis of a concern for malformed children when others that could demonstrably be sure to produce offspring worse off than the results of any incest would yet be free to bear such children themselves."

"Additionally, there are some species that may rely upon genetically similar couplings to reproduce at all, as well as species where their genes are written in such a way that the closeness of the couples does not matter. Faeries, for instance, reproduce with a floral catalyst that ensures the genetic diversity needed to defend against such specialised abnormalities as concerns those that worry about incestuous offspring; two Faeries with the same parentage can, and often do, come together and give life to a perfectly normal little Faerie of their own. In fact, Faeries of the same type and genetic line often produce offspring stronger in the element than either parent."

"If the species that makes up my Community's government is too esoteric an example, what of clones? There, to be sure, is a genetic monoculture of the type that concerns those opposed to incestuous couplings. Yet there are entire civilisations of clones living quite happily, copying the same genes to make up their populace for hundreds of years."

"There may be a small chance of genetic abnormalities in some species, this we cannot deny. However, it is our opinion that the chance is not nearly so great as to disrupt the sexual privacy of every citizen of this General Assembly merely to outlaw incestuous couplings in the few jurisdictions where it may be more than a minor, personal annoyance. Even if the chance for genetic abnormalities doubles with the first incestuous coupling - and doubles again for each generation - it is our contention that the occurrence of such couplings and the chance for serious abnormalities is so low as to not be worth considering in this forum. Where such problems occur, it ought be left to the families, communities, and states involved to see to the care of the offspring. If the cost is too great, such families or their children are more than welcome to seek help from the Community of Eireann Fae, where they will be well-received, whatever their personal situation or genetic malady."

[Araraukar]

OOC: Missed having you around, Eireann.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Well met, ambassador Rowan! It's been too long. I'm sorry that my first interaction with your delegation upon your return is one so adversarial. Your points on the variety of species is exactly why this question should be left to national governments, who can approach the logical and necessary issues of their own genetic makeup as they need to. I'm sure a nation of clones would, by necessity, have very strict reproduction legislation. (OOC: a la TNG Season 2, episode 44 UpThe Long Ladder.) Public health is a tricky, risky arena to ethically operate in, and I feel that it is a necessity to allow for various choices in that arena, for the benefit of society as a whole."

[Defwa]

Indeed. Though it is not a universal public health concern, lack of ability to regulate can be dangerous in some circumstances.
Any loss of other sexual privacy will only be temporary and existing legislation should protect most people enough in the meantime.

[Araraukar]

lack of ability to be late can be dangerous in some circumstances.

OOC: Is there a typo or is my brain skipping something?

[Defwa]

lack of ability to be late can be dangerous in some circumstances.

OOC: Is there a typo or is my brain skipping something?

OOC: I'm using this fancy keyboard. Its usually pretty good but it can do some silly things. Edited.

[Bears Armed Mission]

"If you haven't studied the biology of all 74,328,037,122 sentient species here in the WA, then you would have to realize that this is rather pigeon-held to human concerns don't you?"

OOC: Perhaps you should do some basic reasearch in RL before continuing? The principles involved apply to all species on Earth that have diploid genetic arrangements -- which isn't just Humans, it's a lot of the other multicellular organisms too-- and logically should apply to any 'alien' species whose members inherit two [or more] sets of genes from two [or more] parents each as well unless their genomes have been "cleaned" of harmful variants and are now somehow "locked" against further mutation.
If their genes can mutate then some harmful versions will eventually develop, there will be natural selection against organisms in which those versions actually manifest but those versions may still continue to be carried reccessively, people who inherit copies of recessive harmful genes from both [or "all"] of their parents will manifest the conditions involved (and suffer the relevant health problems), and one is statistically likelier to inherit identical copies od a gene from both [or "all"] parents if those parents are closely related to each other -- and so could themselves have inherited that version from a common ancestor -- than otherwise... regardless of whether the genes are DNA, RNA, or something else altogether.

And anyway, it seems reasonably clear that a majority of the WA's member nations are inhabited primarily either by Humans or by species derived from other 'Earth' stocks in which this situation is definitely possible.

(Zoology graduate here...)

[Hakio]

"If you haven't studied the biology of all 74,328,037,122 sentient species here in the WA, then you would have to realize that this is rather pigeon-held to human concerns don't you?"

OOC: Perhaps you should do some basic reasearch in RL before continuing? The principles involved apply to all species on Earth that have diploid genetic arrangements -- which isn't just Humans, it's a lot of the other multicellular organisms too-- and logically should apply to any 'alien' species whose members inherit two [or more] sets of genes from two [or more] parents each as well unless their genomes have been "cleaned" of harmful variants and are now somehow "locked" against further mutation.
If their genes can mutate then some harmful versions will eventually develop, there will be natural selection against organisms in which those versions actually manifest but those versions may still continue to be carried reccessively, people who inherit copies of recessive harmful genes from both [or "all"] of their parents will manifest the conditions involved (and suffer the relevant health problems), and one is statistically likelier to inherit identical copies od a gene from both [or "all"] parents if those parents are closely related to each other -- and so could themselves have inherited that version from a common ancestor -- than otherwise... regardless of whether the genes are DNA, RNA, or something else altogether.

And anyway, it seems reasonably clear that a majority of the WA's member nations are inhabited primarily either by Humans or by species derived from other 'Earth' stocks in which this situation is definitely possible.

OOC: There could be alien species that do not have the same gene replication we do. Biologists have found a fossil of an animal who reproduced it's genetic information entirely different than the DNA/RNA system, so assuming that is the only types of genetic make up in aliens is not acknowledging the bigger picture of possibilities. Furthermore, simply because the majority of the WA are humans doesn't mean we shouldn't disregard the biology and rights of hypothetical aliens.

[Defwa]

OOC: Perhaps you should do some basic reasearch in RL before continuing? The principles involved apply to all species on Earth that have diploid genetic arrangements -- which isn't just Humans, it's a lot of the other multicellular organisms too-- and logically should apply to any 'alien' species whose members inherit two [or more] sets of genes from two [or more] parents each as well unless their genomes have been "cleaned" of harmful variants and are now somehow "locked" against further mutation.
If their genes can mutate then some harmful versions will eventually develop, there will be natural selection against organisms in which those versions actually manifest but those versions may still continue to be carried reccessively, people who inherit copies of recessive harmful genes from both [or "all"] of their parents will manifest the conditions involved (and suffer the relevant health problems), and one is statistically likelier to inherit identical copies od a gene from both [or "all"] parents if those parents are closely related to each other -- and so could themselves have inherited that version from a common ancestor -- than otherwise... regardless of whether the genes are DNA, RNA, or something else altogether.

And anyway, it seems reasonably clear that a majority of the WA's member nations are inhabited primarily either by Humans or by species derived from other 'Earth' stocks in which this situation is definitely possible.

OOC: There could be alien species that do not have the same gene replication we do. Biologists have found a fossil of an animal who reproduced it's genetic information entirely different than the DNA/RNA system, so assuming that is the only types of genetic make up in aliens is not acknowledging the bigger picture of possibilities. Furthermore, simply because the majority of the WA are humans doesn't mean we shouldn't disregard the biology and rights of hypothetical aliens.

OOC In what way are we disregarding those races?

[Hakio]

OOC: There could be alien species that do not have the same gene replication we do. Biologists have found a fossil of an animal who reproduced it's genetic information entirely different than the DNA/RNA system, so assuming that is the only types of genetic make up in aliens is not acknowledging the bigger picture of possibilities. Furthermore, simply because the majority of the WA are humans doesn't mean we shouldn't disregard the biology and rights of hypothetical aliens.

OOC In what way are we disregarding those races?

OOC: We are disregarding them by repealing a resolution for human centric purposes.

[Defwa]

OOC In what way are we disregarding those races?

OOC: We are disregarding them by repealing a resolution for human centric purposes.

OOC: Oh, okay, so like how NAPA disregards past tech nations.
A flaw in GAR#16 is impeding national government's ability to address a potentially serious health risk that can impact a majority of the population of the world assembly.

[Bears Armed Mission]

OOC: There could be alien species that do not have the same gene replication we do. Biologists have found a fossil of an animal who reproduced it's genetic information entirely different than the DNA/RNA system

OOC: Source? (Not being snarky here, genuinely interested...)

so assuming that is the only types of genetic make up in aliens is not acknowledging the bigger picture of possibilities. Furthermore, simply because the majority of the WA are humans doesn't mean we shouldn't disregard the biology and rights of hypothetical aliens.

OOC: Let me state it more clearly_
The actual biochemistry involved is irrelevant: If whatever any particular species has as its 'genetic' system involves at least two sets of copies that are inherited from separate parents, is subject to possible harm-causing mutation, and allows for 'dominant'/'recessive' relationships (or, at least, 'partial dominance' relationships) between alleles rather than solely for 'co-dominance' then the same basic principles apply. Admittedly the statistical risk of somebody being born homozygous for the harmful allele would decrease as the number of sets of genes involved increases, but that's all...

[Araraukar]

Furthermore, simply because the majority of the WA are humans doesn't mean we shouldn't disregard the biology and rights of hypothetical aliens.

OOC: I really, really don't get why you do this. You play as a human nation. As far as I know, you don't have non-human puppets involved with GA stuff. Why do you insist bringing bad examples of "let's take non-humans into account" into most proposals these days? If you're honestly trying to be mindful of the differently RP'd nations, you're often doing it so badly that it's bordering on what my mind wants to call trolling, as if you were intentionally making it look like all non-human-non-Earth RP was batty and shouldn't be taken seriously, ever.

IC: I think it's probably best if you let those "hypothetical aliens" or their allies to speak for them. Less misunderstandings, all 'round.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Furthermore, simply because the majority of the WA are humans doesn't mean we shouldn't disregard the biology and rights of hypothetical aliens.

OOC: I really, really don't get why you do this. You play as a human nation. As far as I know, you don't have non-human puppets involved with GA stuff. Why do you insist bringing bad examples of "let's take non-humans into account" into most proposals these days? If you're honestly trying to be mindful of the differently RP'd nations, you're often doing it so badly that it's bordering on what my mind wants to call trolling, as if you were intentionally making it look like all non-human-non-Earth RP was batty and shouldn't be taken seriously, ever.

That's why it's called wank and should be avoided at all costs (by serious players).