[DEFEATED] World University for Peace

[Wrapper]

If professorial personnel decisions are to be centralized and conducted by a single board of examiners for the entire WA-wide slew of campuses and programs, this is not the concern I'm making it out to be and the present language is sufficient.

Ah. Thought it was clear, in subclauses II and III, that the international board of trustees was doing the hiring, not the local administrators. I'll consider rewording to make it clearer.

That said, I'm rethinking this. I'm sure there could only be, at most, a rubber-stamp-type approval for the numerous non-faculty positions such as janitors, administrative assistants, security, etc., so their hiring probably should be left in the hands of local administrators. For the board to directly hire each and every individual staff member at a multitude of campuses would be impractical. Perhaps best to leave it at faculty and that's it? May reword to allow for this; will ponder some more and look at it this weekend (plenty of time, looks like three proposals have reached quorum and are in queue).

[Wrapper]

Unfortunately, as our #1 industry is Arms Manufacturing, the ratification of this proposal by the Leader of Neo Industrium would cause significant harm to the nation. We are against this proposal.

And what happens after your nation deploys its weapons, Ambassador? If you wage war as frequently as we infer, then you must realize that peace is surely the endpoint of every conflict, yes? Or do you desire to take on all comers simultaneously in perpetual battle? Even the most militant nations must use the skills of diplomacy and post-war management at some point, correct?

[Wrapper]

Okay, reworded the hiring stuff (the board only hires teaching staff, will let the university manage how it hires all other staff, don't want to micromanage here) and fixed spelling error, but will leave the anonymous donor part out for now (again, don't want to micromanage).

[Wrapper]

Unfortunately, as our #1 industry is Arms Manufacturing, the ratification of this proposal by the Leader of Neo Industrium would cause significant harm to the nation. We are against this proposal.

Another response to this concern: category is Education, not Global Disarmament. Will have no discernible effect on your ability to manufacture weapons.

[Rotwood]

Unfortunately, as our #1 industry is Arms Manufacturing, the ratification of this proposal by the Leader of Neo Industrium would cause significant harm to the nation. We are against this proposal.

Another response to this concern: category is Education, not Global Disarmament. Will have no discernible effect on your ability to manufacture weapons.

Mel chuckles
*I their problem is that they are a militant nation, meaning that the notion of peace goes against their principles*

[Wrapper]

Another response to this concern: category is Education, not Global Disarmament. Will have no discernible effect on your ability to manufacture weapons.

Mel chuckles
*I their problem is that they are a militant nation, meaning that the notion of peace goes against their principles*

Well, we can't do much about the Tybalts of the world, so....

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Well, we can't do much about the Tybalts of the world, so....

...long as the Romeos don't interfere beyond argumentation, & thus get someone stabbed.

But the argumentation itself is praiseworthy.

[Sebastianbourg]

Our government guarantees its full support of this resolution. It seems like an extraordinary idea as it would establish an institution of higher learning in some way controlled by the WA (but only minimally as the governing of the University would be left to the Board and the University President) that would not depend on WA funds; instead it would be dependent on donations by both public and private entities. Additionally, this institution of higher learning nobly sponsors peace which is an essential element of our government's policy.

[Wrapper]

We are encouraged by the support for this proposal and are getting ready to submit it to the regional delegates for approval. Any final questions or comments before we do so?

[Araraukar]

Don't submit yet, please. (I've only gotten back to GA from an absence and haven't had time to give feedback to everything worthwhile.) A week of drafting time is generally far too short for all the good ambassadors from having had time to provide valuable feedback.

[Wrapper]

The draft has been in the works for two and a half weeks, Ambassador. We got a head start with a couple of delegates via telegram. Nevertheless, we were going to wait another couple of days for comments on the final draft. Perhaps you have something in mind to improve this?

[Araraukar]

Let's have a look at the current draft then (all OOC comments marked as such)...

YET BELIEVING that worldwide educational resources in peace, international diplomacy, and post-war resource management are insufficient

So you're saying that nations can't manage the peace process on their own? You got proof of that? [OOC: RL references don't count.]

The World Assembly HEREBY ESTABLISHES the World University for Peace Studies (hereafter WUPS or "the University"), subject to the following:

Okay, you've established the committee.

I. The University shall offer undergraduate and post-graduate degrees in peace-related studies including but not limited to irenology (peace and conflict studies), diplomacy, and related international law.

[OOC: I hope you realize that not all RL countries have the same educational system, so you might want to give OOC notes after the actual proposal as to what you mean by "undergraduate" and "post-graduate". Are you referring to Bachelor/Master/Doctor degree?]

II. The University shall be run by an international board of trustees (hereafter "the Board"). The Board shall appoint a university president, whose duties shall include periodic reports to the WA on the University's progress.

I think this possibly breaks the rules as the faceless WA gnomes are supposed to preside over all WA committees.

III. The Board shall hire faculty and teaching staff based on their academic qualifications with no due regard to their nationality, culture or gender. Faculty must include members of the academic community eminent in the fields of irenology, diplomacy, and/or related international law.

Smells of micromanaging, and definitely stepping on the gnomes' toes. Also, include irenology definition in your OOC notes. Not everyone can be bothered to look it up.

IV. The University shall be funded exclusively by private and public donations and voluntary governmental grants, including the land used for WUPS campuses, and by student tuition and related charges. The University shall not require direct funding by the WA.

Why the fuck should education cost the students anything? I thought this was going to be entirely WA-funded, seeing how it's a WA committee doing this stuff. I also think you're overstepping the WA mandate by telling it to extract fees from single individuals.
[OOC: Not even all RL countries force students to pay for university-level tuition.]

V. The University shall set up a scholarship committee, with the duty to solicit donations and provide need-based and merit-based scholarships and fellowships as appropriate.

[sarcasm]Yeay, now the committee's made a baby committee![/sarcasm] Stick to the one committee you've got and make it do the things. Also, phew, the stink of micromanagement is strong on this one.

VI. The University shall be run autonomously, with minimal oversight by the WA.

It's a WA committee, staffed with WA gnomes, it's 100% oversight by the WA, or it's not legal.

REQUESTS member nations to submit feasibility studies on the placement of a WUPS campus within their borders;

So nations must give land to the committee that's somehow operating on the international scale nevertheless?

ENCOURAGES those nations where such a campus is not feasible, to allow WUPS students and faculty residing within their borders access to virtual WUPS classrooms at minimal or no additional cost to students and faculty;

Again with the students paying for tuition! Give it a rest already. And why not make the whole thing virtual from the get-go? You'd save tons of money from the nations who're going to be funding this in the end. Also, more stuff nations must do for the committee.

MANDATES that member nations allow WUPS students residing within their borders the same rights, privileges and responsibilities accorded to other college and university students residing within their borders (including those in student exchanges or study abroad programs), in accordance with applicable national and international laws;

Possible duplication of previous legislation, since all member nation citizens are to be held equal as is.

URGES member nations to employ WUPS graduates in both public and private sectors, in an effort to promote peace as an alternative to war whenever and wherever feasible;

...what? How does the above huge and massive micromanaged committee have anything to do with promoting peace? Axe the WUPS (which, to my ear, sounds like "whoops" in the "whoops, I made an error") entirely and make nations do something separate of your committee.

CALLS FOR member nations to promote peace by adding irenology and related studies to the curricula of their national and government-funded universities.

This is the only bit of the proposal that actually does anything. Delete everything above this bit and start over.

EDITed to fix formatting errors.

[Araraukar]

The draft has been in the works for two and a half weeks, Ambassador. We got a head start with a couple of delegates via telegram.

OOC: Only the time it's up here on the GA forum actually counts as proper drafting process. You can have worked on it for a year outside, but as that's not readable for the vast majority of the delegates, it might as well not have happened.

Perhaps you have something in mind to improve this?

*points to above post*

Also, I don't see any support from the regulars here, which usually doesn't bode well for a proposal.

[Wrapper]

Let's have a look at the current draft then (all OOC comments marked as such)...

YET BELIEVING that worldwide educational resources in peace, international diplomacy, and post-war resource management are insufficient

So you're saying that nations can't manage the peace process on their own? You got proof of that? [OOC: RL references don't count.]

Just look around, Ambassador. Look at how many nations are building up arsenals, and are all too quick to use them instead of trying the art of negotiation. They hear the word "peace" and, in the words of another delegation, all they hear is "appeasement appeasement appeasement". This is not the way the world should work. (OOC: We have an entire forum devoted to International Incidents. How many threads are about making and negotiating peace instead of military solutions? How many posts even mention the word "peace"? Here, we'll look it up for you -- less than 80,000 out of 1.6 million or so posts.) Also, take a look at every mention of universities and colleges, including here in this forum. Not one, save this one, mentions the idea of the study of peace.

The World Assembly HEREBY ESTABLISHES the World University for Peace Studies (hereafter WUPS or "the University"), subject to the following:

Okay, you've established the committee.

I. The University shall offer undergraduate and post-graduate degrees in peace-related studies including but not limited to irenology (peace and conflict studies), diplomacy, and related international law.

[OOC: I hope you realize that not all RL countries have the same educational system, so you might want to give OOC notes after the actual proposal as to what you mean by "undergraduate" and "post-graduate". Are you referring to Bachelor/Master/Doctor degree?]

Noted.

II. The University shall be run by an international board of trustees (hereafter "the Board"). The Board shall appoint a university president, whose duties shall include periodic reports to the WA on the University's progress.

I think this possibly breaks the rules as the faceless WA gnomes are supposed to preside over all WA committees.

Pretty much all universities are run by a board and led by a university president, rector, or similar position. (OOC: No, the gnomes ensure "compliance" and will adjust education stats accordingly.) If it makes you feel any better, Ambassador, we'll only appoint gnomes to the board... or seek gnomehood for all board members.

III. The Board shall hire faculty and teaching staff based on their academic qualifications with no due regard to their nationality, culture or gender. Faculty must include members of the academic community eminent in the fields of irenology, diplomacy, and/or related international law.

Smells of micromanaging, and definitely stepping on the gnomes' toes. Also, include irenology definition in your OOC notes. Not everyone can be bothered to look it up.

Hardly micromanaging. Irenology is defined above parenthetically.

IV. The University shall be funded exclusively by private and public donations and voluntary governmental grants, including the land used for WUPS campuses, and by student tuition and related charges. The University shall not require direct funding by the WA.

Why the fuck should education cost the students anything? I thought this was going to be entirely WA-funded, seeing how it's a WA committee doing this stuff. I also think you're overstepping the WA mandate by telling it to extract fees from single individuals.
[OOC: Not even all RL countries force students to pay for university-level tuition.]

This... is... interesting. With all the stated support from other nations... why charge tuition? (OOC: will do some research on RL tuition-free universities and see what kind of fees they actually charge... if any.)

V. The University shall set up a scholarship committee, with the duty to solicit donations and provide need-based and merit-based scholarships and fellowships as appropriate.

[sarcasm]Yeay, now the committee's made a baby committee![/sarcasm] Stick to the one committee you've got and make it do the things. Also, phew, the stink of micromanagement is strong on this one.

Noted. If tuition is eliminated this goes away.

VI. The University shall be run autonomously, with minimal oversight by the WA.

It's a WA committee, staffed with WA gnomes, it's 100% oversight by the WA, or it's not legal.

But if the Board is composed of gnomes....

REQUESTS member nations to submit feasibility studies on the placement of a WUPS campus within their borders;

So nations must give land to the committee that's somehow operating on the international scale nevertheless?

No one "must" give anything, but, yes. (OOC: Costa Rica did so for the RL University of Peace campus.)

ENCOURAGES those nations where such a campus is not feasible, to allow WUPS students and faculty residing within their borders access to virtual WUPS classrooms at minimal or no additional cost to students and faculty;

Again with the students paying for tuition! Give it a rest already. And why not make the whole thing virtual from the get-go? You'd save tons of money from the nations who're going to be funding this in the end. Also, more stuff nations must do for the committee.

Not every nation has the technology or infrastructure to set up virtual classrooms, so campuses are needed. And, cost, fine, we'll look into that. That's all some people see are the chewing gum -- er, dollar signs....

MANDATES that member nations allow WUPS students residing within their borders the same rights, privileges and responsibilities accorded to other college and university students residing within their borders (including those in student exchanges or study abroad programs), in accordance with applicable national and international laws;

Possible duplication of previous legislation, since all member nation citizens are to be held equal as is.

No no -- obviously, not every student is a citizen where they are going to school. Let me give you a couple of examples that this clause addresses: Nation A has a mandatory draft but exempts university students, or requires them to serve one year instead of four. Nation B requires all foreign students to procure student visas, which are in whatever way different from other visas such as work visas. Nation C allows its students to freely travel abroad to other universities and does not make them pay income taxes. This clause allows for all WUPS students to be treated the same way as other university students. The idea here is that some nations who may not recognize "peace studies" as a bona fide area of study, cannot discriminate against such students, such as not classifying them as college students. And, note that this is "in accordance with applicable national and international law" -- so there is no duplication, just clarification that this university's students must be treated the same way as any other college students.

URGES member nations to employ WUPS graduates in both public and private sectors, in an effort to promote peace as an alternative to war whenever and wherever feasible;

...what? How does the above huge and massive micromanaged committee have anything to do with promoting peace? Axe the WUPS (which, to my ear, sounds like "whoops" in the "whoops, I made an error") entirely and make nations do something separate of your committee.

We... don't know how to answer that one, so we won't.

CALLS FOR member nations to promote peace by adding irenology and related studies to the curricula of their national and government-funded universities.

This is the only bit of the proposal that actually does anything. Delete everything above this bit and start over.

Er... no thank you?

Ambassador, thank you for your time, and your invaluable input.

[Araraukar]

(OOC: We have an entire forum devoted to International Incidents. How many threads are about making and negotiating peace instead of military solutions? How many posts even mention the word "peace"? Here, we'll look it up for you -- less than 80,000 out of 1.6 million or so posts.)

OOC: And 317,704 mention war. That's 5% mentioning peace and 20% mentioning war. Not very convincing, if your point is that it's an entirely war-based forum.

Here, I'll give you another number: 17,277 nations currently are in the WA, versus 124,327 in the world. Now go look at II forum and count how many war-wagers are in the WA versus how many are not.

Also, take a look at every mention of universities and colleges, including here in this forum. Not one, save this one, mentions the idea of the study of peace.

OOC: What search terms did you use?

IC: At no point have I said that peace wasn't important, or that peace studies couldn't be useful. I'm saying you haven't made it clear in your proposal just how they would be useful in the international setting.

(OOC: No, the gnomes ensure "compliance" and will adjust education stats accordingly.) If it makes you feel any better, Ambassador, we'll only appoint gnomes to the board... or seek gnomehood for all board members.

OOC: The gnomes also staff the committees, since nations (and I'd argue, by extension, persons from the nations) cannot. You can't appoint any yourself, they'll automatically be appointed.

Smells of micromanaging, and definitely stepping on the gnomes' toes.

Hardly micromanaging.

You could just say "professional in peace studies" rather than go into specifics, to avoid the micromanagement.

(OOC: will do some research on RL tuition-free universities and see what kind of fees they actually charge... if any.)

OOC: Here, I'll help you get started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland#Tertiary_education

V. The University shall set up a scholarship committee, with the duty to solicit donations and provide need-based and merit-based scholarships and fellowships as appropriate.

Noted. If tuition is eliminated this goes away.

So eliminate tuition, problem solved.

It's a WA committee, staffed with WA gnomes, it's 100% oversight by the WA, or it's not legal.

But if the Board is composed of gnomes....

They're the WA staff, essentially. Hence, 100% oversight by WA. Furthermore, the university itself is a committee, which are extensions of the WA, staffed by the WA staff. Again, WA oversight.

Not every nation has the technology or infrastructure to set up virtual classrooms, so campuses are needed.

That raises an additional issue - why is it required that every nation have this university thing on their front lawn soil? Wouldn't that mean that every single nation would have to have teachers in their version of the university? (OOC: I'm more and more tempted to write Unseen University.)

No no -- obviously, not every student is a citizen where they are going to school.

Look, just save both our time and look up the anti-discriminating resolutions yourself. Here's the list: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30

such as not classifying them as college students.

College =/= university.

We... don't know how to answer that one, so we won't.

So what's the purpose of this proposal again?

EDITs are for formatting.

[Wrapper]

Don't have time to address your entire post but:

That raises an additional issue - why is it required that every nation have this university thing on their front lawn soil? Wouldn't that mean that every single nation would have to have teachers in their version of the university? (OOC: I'm more and more tempted to write Unseen University.)

Nowhere in this proposal does it require every nation to have a campus.

OOC: I said irenology, not wizardry. OOK!

[Defwa]

Don't have time to address your entire post but:

That raises an additional issue - why is it required that every nation have this university thing on their front lawn soil? Wouldn't that mean that every single nation would have to have teachers in their version of the university? (OOC: I'm more and more tempted to write Unseen University.)

Nowhere in this proposal does it require every nation to have a campus.

OOC: I said irenology, not wizardry. OOK!

Though Wizardry is something we have in our political science courses.

[Araraukar]

Nowhere in this proposal does it require every nation to have a campus.

So why does it require a feasibility study for placing a campus, if it's not going to?

OOK: Wizardry would be more useful in both starting and stopping a war than the university here.

[Wrapper]

REQUESTS, not requires. We don't need THAT many campuses.

[Araraukar]

REQUESTS, not requires. We don't need THAT many campuses.

If a resolution requests something, it's required that the nations do it. The way it's worded now, you can very well end up with a campus in each nation. And since a resolution has to treat all nations equally, you can't say "we'll have a campus in some nations, but not all".

[Wrapper]

REQUEST v. 1: to make a request to or of; 2: to ask as a favor or privilege; 3: to ask for.

Example: We did REQUEST some chocolate milk with our cookies, but Momma gave us regular milk instead.

[Araraukar]

[EDIT: someone found a dictionary]

Look, all nations must be equal when it comes to resolutions. You can throw around as many dictionary definitions as you like, but when a resolution encourages, the nations cannot avoid being encouraged. When a resolution requests something, the nations must fulfill that request. It's how WA works.

[Wrapper]

[EDIT: someone found a dictionary]

Look, all nations must be equal when it comes to resolutions. You can throw around as many dictionary definitions as you like, but when a resolution encourages, the nations cannot avoid being encouraged. When a resolution requests something, the nations must fulfill that request. It's how WA works.

No it is not. A nation is no under obligation to do anything when it is ASKED or URGED or RECOMMENDED to do something.

[Araraukar]

No it is not. A nation is no under obligation to do anything when it is ASKED or URGED or RECOMMENDED to do something.

*sigh* I think I'll rather believe the mods than you. There's a reason "recommends" or "urges" is good enough for a weak resolution.

[Wrapper]

You're talking about one line (which is optional), not the entire resolution (which is not). But... I'll file a GHR.