NationStates

Miley World wrote:I agree with Jeckland, it doesn't seems fair when a puppet is the the same group as its master nation, especially when there's 20-25 groups.

As a person who has had this happen at least twice, long before my current puppet was even thought of, i say to you shut your mouth newb.

Nothings stopping the US from playing the US Virgin Islands in qualify (barring their lack of actual skill), nothings stopping England V Scotland or yada yada. Of course that is a bit of a bad comparison but honestly...Tough luck, we have all been through it. Honestly it should make rping easier as you can basically have a back and fourth banter between yourself and it would be perfectly normal. Hell you could do that and not be in the same group.

Also it would complicate the group draw. Surely with the amount of puppets we have/could have having to do a Gibraltar/Spain, or Azerbaijan/Armenia pot moving to not have them playing each other would make things even harder on the hosts, who already go through a gargantuan process to host a world cup.
Ultimately you could just redraw if you get a puppet in a master's group, but it's unnecessary.

Jeckland wrote:Secondly, in my opinion, having puppets in the same group as master nations is unfair, as situation several users including me are experiencing. It feels awkward knowing that I could (and let me be clear, I do not plan to) try to win/lose games with one nation to benefit the other.

So the problem is... ?

Nephara wrote:

Jeckland wrote:Secondly, in my opinion, having puppets in the same group as master nations is unfair, as situation several users including me are experiencing. It feels awkward knowing that I could (and let me be clear, I do not plan to) try to win/lose games with one nation to benefit the other.

So the problem is... ?

It sets a dangerous precedent. And Taeshan, I don't really see your point at all.

There was a problem precisely once, over the course of 68 World Cups. It was dealt with quickly and decisively. There shouldn't be a problem. The only 'precedent' set is this; 'it will work out fine'.

Taeshan wrote:

Miley World wrote:I agree with Jeckland, it doesn't seems fair when a puppet is the the same group as its master nation, especially when there's 20-25 groups.

As a person who has had this happen at least twice, long before my current puppet was even thought of, i say to you shut your mouth newb.

Nothings stopping the US from playing the US Virgin Islands in qualify (barring their lack of actual skill), nothings stopping England V Scotland or yada yada. Of course that is a bit of a bad comparison but honestly...Tough luck, we have all been through it. Honestly it should make rping easier as you can basically have a back and fourth banter between yourself and it would be perfectly normal. Hell you could do that and not be in the same group.

Also it would complicate the group draw. Surely with the amount of puppets we have/could have having to do a Gibraltar/Spain, or Azerbaijan/Armenia pot moving to not have them playing each other would make things even harder on the hosts, who already go through a gargantuan process to host a world cup.
Ultimately you could just redraw if you get a puppet in a master's group, but it's unnecessary.

Shut your mouth yourself, it's not because it's my 2nd world cup qualifications that I can't say my opinion. Nation States can't compare with the real world. There's in no role play bonuses in the real world. Noob yourself.

by the way I'm a puppet of Miley World.

Taeshan wrote:

Miley World wrote:I agree with Jeckland, it doesn't seems fair when a puppet is the the same group as its master nation, especially when there's 20-25 groups.

As a person who has had this happen at least twice, long before my current puppet was even thought of, i say to you shut your mouth newb.

Nothings stopping the US from playing the US Virgin Islands in qualify (barring their lack of actual skill), nothings stopping England V Scotland or yada yada. Of course that is a bit of a bad comparison but honestly...Tough luck, we have all been through it. Honestly it should make rping easier as you can basically have a back and fourth banter between yourself and it would be perfectly normal. Hell you could do that and not be in the same group.

Also it would complicate the group draw. Surely with the amount of puppets we have/could have having to do a Gibraltar/Spain, or Azerbaijan/Armenia pot moving to not have them playing each other would make things even harder on the hosts, who already go through a gargantuan process to host a world cup.
Ultimately you could just redraw if you get a puppet in a master's group, but it's unnecessary.

That's not a way to speak to anyone, Tae. I'm sure if you were a newb and a more experienced member of the community said that to you, you wouldn't be too chuffed.

I'm pretty sure that the event of Spaamgate all those years ago got hosts to stop drawing puppets into the same group as masters for some time. I'm pretty sure puppets and masters were separated in WC draws I conducted for the very reason of avoiding another situation like that. When this precedent was changed back, I'm not entirely sure. I'm sure it wouldn't take too much longer to sort something like that out.

I wouldn't have thought it was necessary.

Over the course of qualifying tournaments the like of which we have these days, it'd be pretty difficult to RP wise enough so that you favour one of your nations over the other. I'd go so far as to say it wasn't possible, in fact, short of withdrawing your puppet if they finish above your main nation, it isn't really possible at all. You can't just drop your accumulated RP for one match in particular. And now, since Spaamgate, you can't withdraw your puppets in that circumstance, I'd say we're golden.

Are there any nations here who genuinely harboured hopes of getting both their main nation and their puppet into the World Cup? Then you could cry "unfair draw!" but otherwise, nah. Not buying it.

I'm looking forward to having both my nations in the same group. The RP opportunities are huge. I'm really not sure why anyone would object to the fun this creates.

4Th ranked team in my group. No chances for qualification for a 4th time

Polar Islandstates wrote:I'm looking forward to having both my nations in the same group. The RP opportunities are huge. I'm really not sure why anyone would object to the fun this creates.

This ...
Sometimes I wish I knew my opponents as well as my puppets when trying match reports. Also, when everything you're RPing about is encapsulated in a single group it allows you to focus your RP more ... in my opinion anyway.

I don't actually have a puppet in this World Cup but I have experienced having two teams in one group previously. I've also experienced the nasty situation whereby a non-RPing puppet of my qualification group rival managed to invoke Margeret and put me out of the tournament with a hard to swallow 1-0 loss. (Damn you Qazox/Marcos Dynamite)

To me, it's all part of the game. The group draw may be seeded, but beyond that it's totally random. Sometimes it falls nicely for you, sometimes it's a shocker.

Deal with it and move on.

Taeshan wrote:

Miley World wrote:I agree with Jeckland, it doesn't seems fair when a puppet is the the same group as its master nation, especially when there's 20-25 groups.

As a person who has had this happen at least twice, long before my current puppet was even thought of, i say to you shut your mouth newb.

That was completely uncalled for, Taeshan.

I can't really offer a formal Moderation opinion on this given I'm co-hosting the World Cup with my puppet, but this is not a helpful approach; we were all newbies once - even I was a newbie back in WC 1.

I would recommend a quick apology to Miley World, and then we can hopefully move on.

Pays den haut wrote:
Shut your mouth yourself, it's not because it's my 2nd world cup qualifications that I can't say my opinion. Nation States can't compare with the real world. There's in no role play bonuses in the real world. Noob yourself.

by the way I'm a puppet of Miley World.

And a return apology from Miley World might be helpful given the above.


Now let's all have a group hug.

The Archregimancy wrote:

Taeshan wrote:

As a person who has had this happen at least twice, long before my current puppet was even thought of, i say to you shut your mouth newb.

That was completely uncalled for, Taeshan.

I can't really offer a formal Moderation opinion on this given I'm co-hosting the World Cup with my puppet, but this is not a helpful approach; we were all newbies once - even I was a newbie back in WC 1.

I would recommend a quick apology to Miley World, and then we can hopefully move on.

Pays den haut wrote:
Shut your mouth yourself, it's not because it's my 2nd world cup qualifications that I can't say my opinion. Nation States can't compare with the real world. There's in no role play bonuses in the real world. Noob yourself.

by the way I'm a puppet of Miley World.

And a return apology from Miley World might be helpful given the above.


Now let's all have a group hug.

*hug*?

Paradystopia wrote:

Polar Islandstates wrote:I'm looking forward to having both my nations in the same group. The RP opportunities are huge. I'm really not sure why anyone would object to the fun this creates.

This ...
Sometimes I wish I knew my opponents as well as my puppets when trying match reports. Also, when everything you're RPing about is encapsulated in a single group it allows you to focus your RP more ... in my opinion anyway.

I know I'm biased, but I'm relaxed about it.

I've had the Holy Empire and the Archregimancy play each other before, and it always creates interesting RP opportunities.

And I'm not sure how anyone thinks they would go about trying to win or lose games with one nation in order to favour the other given the way scorination works; but I suppose people are welcome to try.

Really, I think it's a non-issue.

Jeckland wrote:Secondly, in my opinion, having puppets in the same group as master nations is unfair, as situation several users including me are experiencing. It feels awkward knowing that I could (and let me be clear, I do not plan to) try to win/lose games with one nation to benefit the other.

This is a random numbers game. I don't know exactly how you plan to try to win games with one nation to benefit the other, but I guarantee you that it will not work!

The Archregimancy wrote:

Paradystopia wrote:This ...
Sometimes I wish I knew my opponents as well as my puppets when trying match reports. Also, when everything you're RPing about is encapsulated in a single group it allows you to focus your RP more ... in my opinion anyway.

I know I'm biased, but I'm relaxed about it.

I've had the Holy Empire and the Archregimancy play each other before, and it always creates interesting RP opportunities.

And I'm not sure how anyone thinks they would go about trying to win or lose games with one nation to favour the other given the way scorination works; but I suppose people are welcome to try.

Really, I think it's a non-issue.

I wish my main and puppet were put in the same group, so it'd be interesting to RP since there's a huge dispute between the two.

Polar Islandstates wrote:Over the course of qualifying tournaments the like of which we have these days, it'd be pretty difficult to RP wise enough so that you favour one of your nations over the other. I'd go so far as to say it wasn't possible, in fact, short of withdrawing your puppet if they finish above your main nation, it isn't really possible at all. You can't just drop your accumulated RP for one match in particular. And now, since Spaamgate, you can't withdraw your puppets in that circumstance, I'd say we're golden.

Personally, I ignore requests to withdraw altogether, once the draw has been conducted. Yes, I actually received several requests to withdraw in response to my reminder TG. If you want to withdraw from the World Cup (or any other tournament), do so before the group draw. If you don't want to enter qualifying but not the WC finals, let your nation CTE. Otherwise, you signed up for the WC finals (should you make it) when you entered qualifying (just as you sign up for qualifying when you enter the BoF and can only withdraw via CTE).

Are there any nations here who genuinely harboured hopes of getting both their main nation and their puppet into the World Cup? Then you could cry "unfair draw!" but otherwise, nah. Not buying it.

Myself, Vilita, Valanora, Arch (all 4 of us have 2 nations in the top 18 of the KPB rankings, so...) and probably several others. Still, if both of your nations are (fairly) drawn into the same group, that's simply the luck of the draw. Its simply a risk that you take, if you have nations in 2 different pots, just as you are always at risk of drawing a group like Group 17 from WC67 (Pasarga, West Angola, Mizuyuki, Free Republics, Felix, Vettera, Sarian).

Personally, I don't understand why you would enter 2 nations into the World Cup unless you were either A) serious about qualifying 2 nations into the World Cup (and/or earning 2 spots in the CoH) or B) want another shot at a BoF title or C) the entry was needed to make the numbers work for the host or D) to avoid the penalty that high-ranking nations face from hosting a World Cup, should you choose to bid in the future (I'd be in favor of an amendment to credit hosts with the average qualifying performance of the 30 nations that qualified rather than just 2 points per match). I can't really think of any other reasons why you'd want to enter a puppet, other than just entering one for the sake of entering it.

At one point, there was a strong chance that the Free Republics wouldn't return for World Cup 66 and I'd make another attempt at the BoF. If I didn't have so many RP ideas for that nation, they wouldn't have.

The Archregimancy wrote:And I'm not sure how anyone thinks they would go about trying to win or lose games with one nation to favour the other given the way scorination works; but I suppose people are welcome to try.

Other than deliberately not RPing with one of the nations, I don't know how one would do that. Then again, I guess you could wait until you're finished playing your puppet to start RPing with them.

Torisakia wrote:I wish my main and puppet were put in the same group, so it'd be interesting to RP since there's a huge dispute between the two.

Actually, you can RP with somebody who isn't in your group, although you won't run into each other on the pitch (unless you schedule friendlies). Given my rivalry with Gregoryisgodistan, you'd think that we've played each other frequently, but this is actually the first time that either of my nations have had to play them in the World Cup. I've also RPed IC conflict between Saintland and Free Republics in the past, even when one of them isn't in the tournament (see: the IBC 14 thread). At some point, you can definitely expect to see major plotlines in my RPs involving my non-WC puppets.

Free Republics wrote:snip

I reported my post and deleted it, please delte the part of your post that you're reffering to me.

Jeckland wrote:-snip-

(Image)

Ah we surely will BRING IT

Also, NSI go ahead and try we know how that one ends!

Free Republics wrote:

Polar Islandstates wrote:Are there any nations here who genuinely harboured hopes of getting both their main nation and their puppet into the World Cup? Then you could cry "unfair draw!" but otherwise, nah. Not buying it.

Myself, Vilita, Valanora, Arch (all 4 of us have 2 nations in the top 18 of the KPB rankings, so...) and probably several others. Still, if both of your nations are (fairly) drawn into the same group, that's simply the luck of the draw. Its simply a risk that you take, if you have nations in 2 different pots, just as you are always at risk of drawing a group like Group 17 from WC67 (Pasarga, West Angola, Mizuyuki, Free Republics, Felix, Vettera, Sarian).

Well, I meant specifically the nations in question this cycle, but chance are good that the nations with a puppet capable of qualification are in the same pot as their puppet anyway.

At the end of the day, if you enter a puppet you have to accept that there is a risk that you'll get drawn together. And if that happens the sporting thing to do is to make the two compete fairly, especially since you'll have a great RP opportunity imo.

Of course you could decide to not RP with your puppet to give your main nation an advantage for their games but in the end it should make much of a difference: for a start it'll help your rivals as well as yourself and there's always going to be a chance they pull of an upset against yourself.

But if at the end of qualifying your puppet is ahead and you would rather have your main nation qualify, well tough luck, that's how football works. Withdrawing shouldn't be allowed for such a thing as it is deeply unsporting.

It's all part of the game, deal with it. (And good luck!)

I appologize for my reaction to what Taeshan said. I don't like being called a noob and I think I'm not one. I also don't like being told to "shut up". I admit my reaction was a little excessive so I appologize for it.

Miley World wrote:I appologize for my reaction to what Taeshan said. I don't like being called a noob and I think I'm not one. I also don't like being told to "shut up". I admit my reaction was a little excessive so I appologize for it.

I too apologize. Though i stand behind the rest of my point. Telling new members to shut up, and learn their place is no way to go about inviting new members into our brotherhood of man.

Free Republics wrote:Personally, I don't understand why you would enter 2 nations into the World Cup unless you were either A) serious about qualifying 2 nations into the World Cup (and/or earning 2 spots in the CoH) or B) want another shot at a BoF title or C) the entry was needed to make the numbers work for the host or D) to avoid the penalty that high-ranking nations face from hosting a World Cup, should you choose to bid in the future (I'd be in favor of an amendment to credit hosts with the average qualifying performance of the 30 nations that qualified rather than just 2 points per match). I can't really think of any other reasons why you'd want to enter a puppet, other than just entering one for the sake of entering it.

E) to deliberately not RP a puppet until all of their games are complete in order to highlight the ridiculousness of participants who sign up puppets for the sake of it? I think that's why I withdrew in the end.

Schiavonia wrote:

Free Republics wrote:Personally, I don't understand why you would enter 2 nations into the World Cup unless you were either A) serious about qualifying 2 nations into the World Cup (and/or earning 2 spots in the CoH) or B) want another shot at a BoF title or C) the entry was needed to make the numbers work for the host or D) to avoid the penalty that high-ranking nations face from hosting a World Cup, should you choose to bid in the future (I'd be in favor of an amendment to credit hosts with the average qualifying performance of the 30 nations that qualified rather than just 2 points per match). I can't really think of any other reasons why you'd want to enter a puppet, other than just entering one for the sake of entering it.

E) to deliberately not RP a puppet until all of their games are complete in order to highlight the ridiculousness of participants who sign up puppets for the sake of it? I think that's why I withdrew in the end.

The only reason I'd be bothered by a puppet in the same group is if it had the potential to knock the master nation out and the countries were not ICly related. For example, I entered two nations in the WCoH this time around: this one, and Borschland. If we were drawn into the same group in the next one, a possibility due to the difference in rank, I would be worried about Borschland knocking this nation out, b/c Borschland has good RP and a decent rank, while this one has a good rank and just decent RP. I would be happy if Borschland made the playoffs, but not at the expense of Nova Anglicana. Especially because Nova Anglicana then doesn't have a good RP angle for new tournaments. It's just, "Oh, this random nation knocked us out." I wouldn't deliberately not RP with Borschland just to get this nation in, though.

As to why people enter puppets and don't RP with them, no idea. I plan on entering a puppet (not ICly connected to NA)in the next cycle because I want to experiment with a different language, people and story than this nation.

Nova Anglicana wrote:The only reason I'd be bothered by a puppet in the same group is if it had the potential to knock the master nation out and the countries were not ICly related.

That's simply the gamble you take when you sign up a puppet. And even if the draw was hypothetically altered to keep master and puppet apart there'd still be the chance of meeting in the Finals. As Kernansquillec said, it's all part of the game.

Torisakia wrote:

The Jasminia Islands wrote:OK, let's make this good. COME ON JASMINIA!

Eh, Torisakian team's got you beat.

Come at me bruv!