Unofficial xkoranate user guide? Let's talk.

[HopNation]

A question about the "BONUSES" tab, what do the "Effect of Bonus" and "Bonus Formula" do? And what number (rather, what scale of numbers) should be put in the "Bonus" column next to team/participant?

The tab itself is used to give either teams or participants a bonus to their chance of a favorable outcome, at least how I see it. This then takes into account the % you use, where the percent is how much of the bonus is compared to that of the skill (RP bonus) given in an event. At 0% bonus that bonus is ignored, where at 100% the bonus is the only thing used. At least that's how it was somewhat explained to me at one point. You kind of have to play with it a bit to see what works for your situation to know how the bonus % and the bonus you use (0 to 1) effects the overall scorination of the event. As for the underlying formula, I don't know enough about it to fully comment on it, but it is basically which formula you want to use - Absolute, Relative, or World Cup 36 (each has it's own computation that takes place when figuring the % and skill to produce the scorination output).

This tab is usually used in events like the Olympics or other such events that athlete attributes might make a difference in how they perform. This allows you to add the bonus to that athlete (participant) or to the team (nation, or team if each has it's own name). But which you use might depend on how you set up the event. Using the Olympics as an example you may have A1, A2, A3 all from XYZ nation, in the event A1-A3 would be the participants and XYZ would be the team, so on the bonus tab which do you want that bonus to be applied to, all athletes? or the athletes individually? If the answer is all athletes then the team button would be used and the bonus entered next to XYZ, whereas the reverse would be used if the bonus would be given individually and participants would be selected then the bonus would be entered next to each A1, A2, and A3 separately.

Also, what's the difference between Qualification and Elimination?

Is there a particular sport/event your viewing for this?

In general, qualification would be a round in which is scorinated to produce advancing participants into some form of final round. Whereas, elimination, would simple eliminate a participant. But again this might also depend on what your looking at in this regard.




Hopefully that helps a bit, others might want to fix anything if I've stated it incorrectly but from reading through the posts in this thread and some brief explanation from others that's how I understand the "BONUSES" tab.

[Drawkland]

A question about the "BONUSES" tab, what do the "Effect of Bonus" and "Bonus Formula" do? And what number (rather, what scale of numbers) should be put in the "Bonus" column next to team/participant?

The tab itself is used to give either teams or participants a bonus to their chance of a favorable outcome, at least how I see it. This then takes into account the % you use, where the percent is how much of the bonus is compared to that of the skill (RP bonus) given in an event. At 0% bonus that bonus is ignored, where at 100% the bonus is the only thing used. At least that's how it was somewhat explained to me at one point. You kind of have to play with it a bit to see what works for your situation to know how the bonus % and the bonus you use (0 to 1) effects the overall scorination of the event. As for the underlying formula, I don't know enough about it to fully comment on it, but it is basically which formula you want to use - Absolute, Relative, or World Cup 36 (each has it's own computation that takes place when figuring the % and skill to produce the scorination output).

This tab is usually used in events like the Olympics or other such events that athlete attributes might make a difference in how they perform. This allows you to add the bonus to that athlete (participant) or to the team (nation, or team if each has it's own name). But which you use might depend on how you set up the event. Using the Olympics as an example you may have A1, A2, A3 all from XYZ nation, in the event A1-A3 would be the participants and XYZ would be the team, so on the bonus tab which do you want that bonus to be applied to, all athletes? or the athletes individually? If the answer is all athletes then the team button would be used and the bonus entered next to XYZ, whereas the reverse would be used if the bonus would be given individually and participants would be selected then the bonus would be entered next to each A1, A2, and A3 separately.

Also, what's the difference between Qualification and Elimination?

Is there a particular sport/event your viewing for this?

In general, qualification would be a round in which is scorinated to produce advancing participants into some form of final round. Whereas, elimination, would simple eliminate a participant. But again this might also depend on what your looking at in this regard.




Hopefully that helps a bit, others might want to fix anything if I've stated it incorrectly but from reading through the posts in this thread and some brief explanation from others that's how I understand the "BONUSES" tab.

This was really helpful, thank you.

[Landpolis]

How do skill works on the "Set Participants'' screen?

[Free Republics]

How do skill works on the "Set Participants'' screen?

The "skill" is the ranking, which is determines the odds that any specific "participant" will win. Skill is scaled relative to the min and max values that you set. I'd recommend adding RP bonuses to the rankings, unless you're running an Olympics-style event where that would be overly time consuming (mainly because its easier to control bonus amounts if you add them into the ranking).

[Itanpavia]

How do you create a participant .txt file with teams included?

[HopNation]

How do you create a participant .txt file with teams included?

Participant;Team;Skill

With one entry per line.

Like this from one of my files (my team is our tri-gram):
Arnold Erdmann Stumpf;HPN;0.458
Jörg Ulrich Halle;HPN;0.802
Warren VonHopton;HPN;0.868

[Itanpavia]

How do you create a participant .txt file with teams included?

Participant;Team;Skill

With one entry per line.

Like this from one of my files (my team is our tri-gram):
Arnold Erdmann Stumpf;HPN;0.458
Jörg Ulrich Halle;HPN;0.802
Warren VonHopton;HPN;0.868

Thank you very much

[Menukten]

I'm really not sure how the bonus and skill modifier systems work. What exactly does the bonus modify? The skill level? And how exactly is skill determined by ranking?

Say I'm scorinating an international tournament with people sending their national teams to compete. How do I take their rankings into account in my scorination? It is a matter of the skill modifier, or the bonus? If so, how do you calculate the skill number or bonus percentage from a nation's international ranking?

[Darmen]

I'm really not sure how the bonus and skill modifier systems work. What exactly does the bonus modify? The skill level? And how exactly is skill determined by ranking?

Say I'm scorinating an international tournament with people sending their national teams to compete. How do I take their rankings into account in my scorination? It is a matter of the skill modifier, or the bonus? If so, how do you calculate the skill number or bonus percentage from a nation's international ranking?

The ranking would go into the skill column. The RP bonus can be applied in one of two ways, either straight to the ranking, or through the bonus page. If your hosting a multi-sport event, the bonus page will be better; a single-sport event, and adding the RP bonus to the ranking will work better.

[Menukten]

I'm really not sure how the bonus and skill modifier systems work. What exactly does the bonus modify? The skill level? And how exactly is skill determined by ranking?

Say I'm scorinating an international tournament with people sending their national teams to compete. How do I take their rankings into account in my scorination? It is a matter of the skill modifier, or the bonus? If so, how do you calculate the skill number or bonus percentage from a nation's international ranking?

The ranking would go into the skill column. The RP bonus can be applied in one of two ways, either straight to the ranking, or through the bonus page. If your hosting a multi-sport event, the bonus page will be better; a single-sport event, and adding the RP bonus to the ranking will work better.

Thanks for the swift reply!

How do rankings go in the skill column? If a team with 40 skill is better than one with 12, but the 12th ranked team is actually better than the 40th ranked team, how do you reconcile them? Do you subtract rankings from a higher number, say 100 or 500, to determine skill? As for applying the bonus directly to the ranking (and by that you mean skill, right?), do you just determine it outside of xkornate, or is there a way to do it in xkoronate?

[Nexxus Drako]

The ranking would go into the skill column. The RP bonus can be applied in one of two ways, either straight to the ranking, or through the bonus page. If your hosting a multi-sport event, the bonus page will be better; a single-sport event, and adding the RP bonus to the ranking will work better.

Thanks for the swift reply!

How do rankings go in the skill column? If a team with 40 skill is better than one with 12, but the 12th ranked team is actually better than the 40th ranked team, how do you reconcile them? Do you subtract rankings from a higher number, say 100 or 500, to determine skill? As for applying the bonus directly to the ranking (and by that you mean skill, right?), do you just determine it outside of xkornate, or is there a way to do it in xkoronate?

I can answer the second question, you add how many points our of your scaled maximum to their skill or rank, and that's RP bonus, like for instance, you might grade RPs from 0-5.

Example:
Say Nation A got 3, Nation B got 5, and Nation C got 0. A's skill which is say, a KPB rank or such, is 5, B's is 2, and C's is 1.

Add the RP bonus onto each nations skill, i.e "A = 3+5 = 8", "B = 2+5 = 7" and "C = 1+0 = 0".

RP bonus is baically how much you liked their RP, so use your own criteria for that. Say like quality over quantity, because if you go quantity over quality, people will spam. Best way to combat this is to grade multiple RPs as one gigantic RP.

As for the first question, you're best off making everyone's skill zero if you have no ranks, then devising your own ranking system during or after the tournament. However, if you're doing one where multiple teams from a nation enter, such as your Lion Cup, then I'll make an example.

Say someone entered 4 teams (I'm using the religious theme of the Lion Cup),

Monks
Preists
Witch Doctors
Shamans

You'd give the top team 3, second 2, thrid 1, and last 0, the reason why being that you start from the maximum amount of teams enterable minus 1 at the top and work your way down, as people usually rank their teams in tournaments like the NSCAA from best to worst. Why give last place none? Simple, you need teams with 0 to balance things out.

Hope I've helped man, I feel like I needed to share some knowledge with a promising young chap like yourself.

[Menukten]

Thanks for the swift reply!

How do rankings go in the skill column? If a team with 40 skill is better than one with 12, but the 12th ranked team is actually better than the 40th ranked team, how do you reconcile them? Do you subtract rankings from a higher number, say 100 or 500, to determine skill? As for applying the bonus directly to the ranking (and by that you mean skill, right?), do you just determine it outside of xkornate, or is there a way to do it in xkoronate?

I can answer the second question, you add how many points our of your scaled maximum to their skill or rank, and that's RP bonus, like for instance, you might grade RPs from 0-5.

Example:
Say Nation A got 3, Nation B got 5, and Nation C got 0. A's skill which is say, a KPB rank or such, is 5, B's is 2, and C's is 1.

Add the RP bonus onto each nations skill, i.e "A = 3+5 = 8", "B = 2+5 = 7" and "C = 1+0 = 0".

RP bonus is baically how much you liked their RP, so use your own criteria for that. Say like quality over quantity, because if you go quantity over quality, people will spam. Best way to combat this is to grade multiple RPs as one gigantic RP.

As for the first question, you're best off making everyone's skill zero if you have no ranks, then devising your own ranking system during or after the tournament. However, if you're doing one where multiple teams from a nation enter, such as your Lion Cup, then I'll make an example.

Say someone entered 4 teams (I'm using the religious theme of the Lion Cup),

Monks
Preists
Witch Doctors
Shamans

You'd give the top team 3, second 2, thrid 1, and last 0, the reason why being that you start from the maximum amount of teams enterable minus 1 at the top and work your way down, as people usually rank their teams in tournaments like the NSCAA from best to worst. Why give last place none? Simple, you need teams with 0 to balance things out.

Hope I've helped man, I feel like I needed to share some knowledge with a promising young chap like yourself.

Thanks, Nexxus, this really helps a lot. Only I was unsure of how ranking and skill worked and wanted to figure it out before the Lion Cup was over so I could rank the teams if I ever decided to do it again. And again I was unsure how the bonus worked so I ended up not using it in the Cup and not requiring RPs, but now I know enough to be able to include them if I ever do a repeat.

So if the tournament was something like the World Cup, you would just transpose the numbers, the team ranked 1 becomes 299, 2, 298, and so on and so forth until the 300 ranked teams who get a fat 0? I was thinking along those lines but I wanted to make sure there wasn't some other more efficient system people were using.

[Nexxus Drako]

So if the tournament was something like the World Cup, you would just transpose the numbers, the team ranked 1 becomes 299, 2, 298, and so on and so forth until the 300 ranked teams who get a fat 0? I was thinking along those lines but I wanted to make sure there wasn't some other more efficient system people were using.

No, what you would do, is for the first tournament, have ranks on 0, then create a system to automatically generate the skills of the teams involved based on previous results, say, points (as in 3 for a win, 1 for a draw) divided by games multiplied by an arbitrary multiplier.

I'll take the world cup as an example.

Qualifying uses Points divided by Games times 4 for the most recent, and halving to 2 for the 2nd and halving again to 1 for the 3rd.
CoH uses the same but with 2.5, then 1.25 then 0.625 as the multiplier.
BoF uses the same but with 1 and 0.5 as the multipliers.
World Cup Proper is Points plus 3 divided by games. Reason for the plus 3 is so poor teams are not punished for qualifying for the finals and not the CoH.

Toy around a bit with the skill system I've mentioned, Google Drive is your friend. See if you can devise something good.

Having it like you mentioned, as in my Lion Cup example, where 1st gets 3, 2nd gets 2 and such is only really useful for one-off tournaments where multiple teams are entered by the same nation. In national tournaments, you want a ranking system.

Also, if you do make a successful tournament and such, make the rankings viewable by the public, but only editable by you, good for transparency.

Hope this clarifies things.

[Polar Islandstates]

I can answer the second question, you add how many points our of your scaled maximum to their skill or rank, and that's RP bonus, like for instance, you might grade RPs from 0-5.

Example:
Say Nation A got 3, Nation B got 5, and Nation C got 0. A's skill which is say, a KPB rank or such, is 5, B's is 2, and C's is 1.

Add the RP bonus onto each nations skill, i.e "A = 3+5 = 8", "B = 2+5 = 7" and "C = 1+0 = 0".

RP bonus is baically how much you liked their RP, so use your own criteria for that. Say like quality over quantity, because if you go quantity over quality, people will spam. Best way to combat this is to grade multiple RPs as one gigantic RP.

As for the first question, you're best off making everyone's skill zero if you have no ranks, then devising your own ranking system during or after the tournament. However, if you're doing one where multiple teams from a nation enter, such as your Lion Cup, then I'll make an example.

Say someone entered 4 teams (I'm using the religious theme of the Lion Cup),

Monks
Preists
Witch Doctors
Shamans

You'd give the top team 3, second 2, thrid 1, and last 0, the reason why being that you start from the maximum amount of teams enterable minus 1 at the top and work your way down, as people usually rank their teams in tournaments like the NSCAA from best to worst. Why give last place none? Simple, you need teams with 0 to balance things out.

Hope I've helped man, I feel like I needed to share some knowledge with a promising young chap like yourself.

Thanks, Nexxus, this really helps a lot. Only I was unsure of how ranking and skill worked and wanted to figure it out before the Lion Cup was over so I could rank the teams if I ever decided to do it again. And again I was unsure how the bonus worked so I ended up not using it in the Cup and not requiring RPs, but now I know enough to be able to include them if I ever do a repeat.

So if the tournament was something like the World Cup, you would just transpose the numbers, the team ranked 1 becomes 299, 2, 298, and so on and so forth until the 300 ranked teams who get a fat 0? I was thinking along those lines but I wanted to make sure there wasn't some other more efficient system people were using.

Rank and skill are not the same, you are correct.

Ranking is nothing but the order teams go in when you order them by skill from biggest to smallest.

Take the WC for example. There are currently 365 nations in the ranks, of which I am currently ranked #1. This does not mean however that my skill is 365-1=364 with Taslantis at the bottom having a skill of 0. Taslantis does have a skill of zero, but it is this which makes them ranked bottom, rather than the other way around.

In the WC, the ranking system is named after its creators; the KPB System. Thus, people will often refer to their rank (technically incorrectly) in terms of their KPB score. The KPB score is a formula worked out by comparing points per game in WCC tournaments over the past three cycles, mulitplied by a constant for each tournament, and then all added up. With three points for a win and one for a draw. The world cup has a bigger multiplier than the cup of harmony, qualifiers, and baptism of fire etc, and the most recent cycle has a bigger multiplier than the cycle three cycles ago. If you go on the KPB rank page here you can scroll right and see the raw data involved in this calculation.

Many other ranking systems work on very similar systems to this. Some others, like the Seasogs international domestic rugby tournament I run, award skill points for how far a team progresses in the tournament (thanks to their previous skill in combination with the random factor of the scorinator). The way you assign skill points for the Lion Cup is up to you, but I would personally advise against a basic linear system based on whole integers such as "top ranked = 100, second = 99, third = 98, etc..."

Any more helpful?

EDIT: Nexxus has pretty much ninja'd me here, but I'm posting anyway in case a second wording of the same thing helps more than just one.

[Nexxus Drako]

EDIT: Nexxus has pretty much ninja'd me here, but I'm posting anyway in case a second wording of the same thing helps more than just one.

Thanks PIS, this'll clarify a bit more as well.

[Menukten]

Thanks Polar Islandstates and Nexxus, this clarifies everything a lot. I feel like I have my head above the water now. If I'm hearing you right a formula would look something like this:

p/3g = s

where p is points and g games and s the skill? I'm no hand at math, but something like this is manageable. I'll have to tinker around a bit, now I know not to look for a simple linear solution.

[Britonisea]

XKoranate is easier than I thought it was.

[The Tidal Wake]

I'm tinkering around with the bonuses Tab of xkoranate, and I cant for the life of my figure out "Relative" and "Absolute" styles for bonuses. if anyone could explain those out to me a little more in-depth I'd really appreciate it!

[Ko-oren]

I'm tinkering around with the bonuses Tab of xkoranate, and I cant for the life of my figure out "Relative" and "Absolute" styles for bonuses. if anyone could explain those out to me a little more in-depth I'd really appreciate it!

This is probably the best answer.

[Rotoshave]

I'm developing a scorinator for a sport I created in which teams play five rounds, the winner decided by who wins the most rounds. I have the basics down, but for some reason whenever run a round robin the top team always ends up playing twice as many games as every other team and I have no idea why. What am I missing?

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<sport version="0.3">
<name>Larceny</name>
<alphabetizedName>Larceny</alphabetizedName>
<discipline>Larceny</discipline>
<scorinator/>

<paradigm>wrestling</paradigm>
<paradigmOptions>
<list type="results">
<string>3–2</string>
<string>4–1</string>
<string>5–0</string>
</list>
<list type="reversedResults">
<string>2–3</string>
<string>1–4</string>
<string>0–5</string>
</list>
<list type="winnerScores">
<double>3</double>
<double>4</double>
<double>5</double>
</list>
<list type="loserScores">
<double>2</double>
<double>1</double>
<double>0</double>
</list>
<list type="resultProbs">
<double>0.6</double>
<double>0.3</double>
<double>0.1</double>
</list>
</paradigmOptions>
</sport>

.........................Pld    W   D   L    PF   PA   PD   Pts 
 1 JJ                    108   58   0  50   272  268   +4   174
 2 II                     54   33   0  21   149  121  +28    99
 3 OO                     54   32   0  22   151  119  +32    96
 4 NN                     54   31   0  23   139  131   +8    93
 5 QQ                     54   31   0  23   139  131   +8    93
 6 ZZ                     54   30   0  24   138  132   +6    90
 7 PP                     54   29   0  25   142  128  +14    87
 8 XX                     54   29   0  25   136  134   +2    87
 9 LL                     54   29   0  25   134  136   −2    87
10 GF                     54   28   0  26   142  128  +14    84
11 KK                     54   28   0  26   142  128  +14    84
12 TT                     54   28   0  26   139  131   +8    84
13 CC                     54   28   0  26   138  132   +6    84
14 UU                     54   28   0  26   125  145  −20    84
15 YY                     54   27   0  27   140  130  +10    81
16 EE                     54   27   0  27   137  133   +4    81
17 AA                     54   27   0  27   133  137   −4    81
18 MM                     54   27   0  27   129  141  −12    81
19 FF                     54   26   0  28   130  140  −10    78
20 GG                     54   25   0  29   133  137   −4    75
21 HH                     54   24   0  30   130  140  −10    72
22 WW                     54   23   0  31   132  138   −6    69
23 SS                     54   23   0  31   126  144  −18    69
24 VV                     54   23   0  31   124  146  −22    69
25 DD                     54   21   0  33   131  139   −8    63
26 BB                     54   21   0  33   127  143  −16    63
27 RR                     54   20   0  34   122  148  −26    60

[Commerce Heights]

I'm developing a scorinator for a sport I created in which teams play five rounds, the winner decided by who wins the most rounds. I have the basics down, but for some reason whenever run a round robin the top team always ends up playing twice as many games as every other team and I have no idea why. What am I missing?

You either have two teams named JJ or entered it in the group twice.

[Rotoshave]

I'm developing a scorinator for a sport I created in which teams play five rounds, the winner decided by who wins the most rounds. I have the basics down, but for some reason whenever run a round robin the top team always ends up playing twice as many games as every other team and I have no idea why. What am I missing?

You either have two teams named JJ or entered it in the group twice.

Ah, you're right, I have jj entered twice. I thought it was a problem with the code but it was just me being an airhead. Anyways, thanks for catching the mistake.

[Kolmya]

With the style bonus, is 3 better than -3? More Defensive?

[Saintland]

With the style bonus, is 3 better than -3? More Defensive?

No style modifier is better than any other and they should have no impact upon results (although tiebreakers often favor teams with offensive modifiers). Positive style mods are offensive and negative styles are defensive.

[Kolmya]

With the style bonus, is 3 better than -3? More Defensive?

No style modifier is better than any other and they should have no impact upon results (although tiebreakers often favor teams with offensive modifiers). Positive style mods are offensive and negative styles are defensive.

Ok, thank you good sir.