General Discussion and Forum for Thought [OOC - ATTN: ALL]

[Jenrak]

Hey guys, Jenrak here.

In the light of Anemos' Major's 'attack Hayaba' shindig,

In the light of Hayaba's recent bevy of threads that aggravate most RPers who RP with him,

and in light of lacking faith in NST in all camps,

I want to get feedback, discussion and thoughts from players in general as to the climate, forecast and thoughts from all players from all regions as to what you guys believe we should do about the current state of II.

Now, I want you guys to take this seriously, so if I see smart-ass remarks, I will do what it necessary to cull it, so please take this in all seriousness.

I sorely believe that we need to have a universally inputted system to help II's quality, but I believe that a general thread for discussion and thought in predominantly MT and PMT is needed. Looking at Balrogga's FT Argument thread, we see that the FT II community is fairly self-regulated with groups that span all members and between groups, but we don't see that in MT and PMT, at least not as much as I'd like for us to see.

That said, what things would you guys like to see, what programs might be good to implement and what ideas may be possible? Understand limitations upon myself and those in II, and please understand the context and situation of many new players.

All arguments are valid, insofar as they are not outright insulting. What can we do about the current state of II? What do you believe should be done? Do you think it is realistic or not? Just general thoughts and comments on that.

[Solm]

I agree with you that II is not at its best. II has two diverse communities, I believe, one a community of persons who have been in II a long-time and have grown accustomed to it, learned it, and are some-what 'experts' at it. The latter, is a community of newer nations, ones that come into II and see the fun of declaring war, and they might not be as 'good' as the other, the 'noob' community. Everyone was a noob at one time, myself included, as I was a dreadfully terrible noob, whom really didn't get the hang of II or the gist of the NSWorld. The hard part is trying to transform those people into great RPers who understand II. There has to be a more proactive attempt into helping them, we have to go to them, not the other way around. We must initiate a system in which we can identify nations whom need help, and be able to go to them, not relying on their decision to come to people who are willing to help.

I agree with you that a MT discussion thread, similar to Balrogga's one, would be useful, and I believe that attempts at it have failed in the past, but I think that it could dramatically help the MT Community as it has helped the FT Community. It could help newer nations understand the limitations of their nations, and easily accessible answers for questions that might arise as they start their journey in II.

I think that nations best learn from example, and many are not always the most ready to read long threads (I know when I first started out, I wasn't). We have to try to find a way to bring the help to them, to show them the ropes of II, and to get them started as a new nation.

We also have to stop yelling and posting: "Fail" comments when a new nation tries to RP in II. Many times I have noticed that when a new nation tries to begin an RP (That might just be a one-liner), many nations will post "Fail," and not try to constructively assist the nation in becoming a better RPer.

[Jenrak]

That's true that there are diverse communities in the experienced field, I would agree, but can we also argue that perhaps there is no communication between these groups? I know within the expert community there are their own little groups and cliques, such as the 'Haven crowd', or 'Gholgoth crowd', or 'Rostil crowd', etc. Do you believe there are certain RPing lines that they'll all come across together and try to fix with these new players, and then try and get these new RPers to follow?

That said, bringing help to the newer players has ultimately been an issue because sometimes we are A) limited by what help we can provide, and B) whether they'll listen. We can't barge in and say 'this is what you do', because that risks the OP outright ignoring us and asking us to leave. Secondly, whether they'll listen or take heed is another issue. The Hayaba and Blue Zone 1 incident, for example, displays the issues with players who evidently don't listen to advice, or have really short term memories or have difficulty learning.

As for the 'Fail' comment, I would agree, but that would require a massive shift in our current RPing paradigm because we're so used to it now. I mean, look at the 'Blackhelm Countdown' - that was a persistent problem among oil threads for the longest time, and this issue is even more fundamental. Do you think that 'experts' should be more stringent on what people are saying to newer threads?

[Ozymos]

The hard part is trying to transform those people into great RPers who understand II. There has to be a more proactive attempt into helping them, we have to go to them, not the other way around. We must initiate a system in which we can identify nations whom need help, and be able to go to them, not relying on their decision to come to people who are willing to help.

[...]

We also have to stop yelling and posting: "Fail" comments when a new nation tries to RP in II. Many times I have noticed that when a new nation tries to begin an RP (That might just be a one-liner), many nations will post "Fail," and not try to constructively assist the nation in becoming a better RPer.

Right on, although I think it's fair to say that whilst we have to stop posting comments like "Fail" instead of helping, people actually need to be prepared to accept help from the veterans like Jenrak and whatnot. Chronicly bad RPers who refuse to take advice...well, i'm not sure what to do about them. Not without being really facist, anyway

[Rethan]

One issue which is of notable mention (and has been mentioned, hence I think it's important enough to mention again) is the fragmented state of MT roleplay in II. You have Gholgoth who can't get along with Haven, Tarquinia who can't get along with the Conglomerate...the list goes on and on. With how MT is set up, unless you're in a region, you're not likely to get into a roleplay circle, and all the variant circles are so dead set on staying to themselves that nothing as exciting as the old days ever happens anymore. Where are the huge wars to stomp out the Kraven Corporation, or the inter-regional warfare? I miss that.

Combine that with people utterly unwilling to set aside realism or their IC character even the tiniest bit to facilitate newer players. A recent example would be in New Azura's Pandaemonium thread where all of Gholgoth threatens unmitigated destruction on anyone who even attempts to enter their waters with something so much as a water pistol. In Character? Yes. Good sportsmanship? No. Nobody's going to want to get involved with the older players (and hence learn how to play) so long as this kind of thing exists. Another off-putting item (which made me switch to FT and generally avoid MT like the plague for a long time) was the people so deadset on realism that if you don't use perfect tactics and basically understand how modern warfare works in real life, right down to the power behind a tank's particular round and the benefits of one round type vs. another, you're going to be called out on it and pretty much have all creativity crushed. If I wanted real world political stuff to read, I'd go watch the fucking news. It's ridiculous.

Also of note is a recent attempt by the Conglomerate to teach an alliance filled with newer players how to roleplay through the method which would best draw them in. Most newer players (I know, I was one once) enjoy warfare, and why not? Done right it can be immense fun. The problem is people misunderstood the Cong's intentions and thought the Cong was declaring ware because they disagreed with how the other players were roleplaying. Granted, the conglomerate players involved didn't (to my eye) make their intentions wholly clear, hence the misunderstanding. Cue the fragmented rivalries as Cong-hating players jumped in to condemn a legitimate attempt at helping newbies learn the ropes.

Honestly, I think MT could learn from FT. FT has an argument thread, and an IRC channel (for all of FT, not just certain players). People in it talk things out and there's generally a lot of OOC interaction to prevent fuckups and arguments within a thread. MT needs something similar so regions can talk out their differences and try to involve newer players. There are numerous players in FT (Morningstar probably being the best for it) who will quite calmly talk out how to join FT and become a productive roleplayer within the channel, and I myself helped someone through TGs.

I didn't get any of this when trying to get involved with MT.

Disclaimer: The above rant is based on my own experiences and should not be taken as Gospel. Nor should anyone take insult in any of it, as none was intended.

[Solm]

That's true that there are diverse communities in the experienced field, I would agree, but can we also argue that perhaps there is no communication between these groups? I know within the expert community there are their own little groups and cliques, such as the 'Haven crowd', or 'Gholgoth crowd', or 'Rostil crowd', etc. Do you believe there are certain RPing lines that they'll all come across together and try to fix with these new players, and then try and get these new RPers to follow?

That said, bringing help to the newer players has ultimately been an issue because sometimes we are A) limited by what help we can provide, and B) whether they'll listen. We can't barge in and say 'this is what you do', because that risks the OP outright ignoring us and asking us to leave. Secondly, whether they'll listen or take heed is another issue. The Hayaba and Blue Zone 1 incident, for example, displays the issues with players who evidently don't listen to advice, or have really short term memories or have difficulty learning.

As for the 'Fail' comment, I would agree, but that would require a massive shift in our current RPing paradigm because we're so used to it now. I mean, look at the 'Blackhelm Countdown' - that was a persistent problem among oil threads for the longest time, and this issue is even more fundamental. Do you think that 'experts' should be more stringent on what people are saying to newer threads?

Well I agree with you that communication between those three groups is minimal, I am currently involved in a conflict with Gholgoth, but communication between them has never been a priority. If you are asking if they would all come into agreement on a set of directions for RPing quality and then produce a joint-effort to instill such on the newer nations, I think it could possibly happen, but the likely hood of such is unlikely. As Rethan said, MT is fragmented, there are regions and RPing circles, it is hard for newer nations to get really involved.

Getting newer players to take the time to listen to such players like yourself is half the battle. In the Hayaba situation, I know several people tried to help Hayaba improve his RPing but would not listen. Being able to communicate with newer nations and trying to be able to give them constructive advice is hard, getting them to listen is another thing altogether. As Oz said, there isn't much people can do about them, we can direct them to already existing guides, help them through TG, or try to get them involved in an RP were quality is enforced. For the people that are consistently not taking advice, and posting meaningless threads that soon spam II, like Hayaba's situation, then something needs to be done. But, they're players who would listen, and there should be a system for the 'experts' to go to them.

The 'experts' definitely have to resist from posting un-constructive things in newer threads. If someone repeatably posted fail on one of my threads when I first started off, I wouldn't know what to improve, and all in all, would probably leave II and not really come back, newer players can turn into great 'experts' if they are given the help.

[Arivada]

Well the II clearly isn't the best it could be. While I don't think we should bar off n00bs, I also don't think we should let players get too cocky. People that don't even rp occasionally look and find a thread and do what they can to call the OP out. It happened to me two days ago. Now I plan on staying on the II for a while longer but the fact is that the bad RPers can't learn for no one tries to take the time to teach them anymore.

[Of The Arch ilands]

Hmmm once again Jenrak, you serve the community Hazzar to you sir Hazzar to you! Any any case I have to agree MT is fractured, byt what i deem three groups. You have the 'writers' the poeple who want to have fun and write an interesting story with other people, These are from my experience mostly Middle nations nations who haven't been around since 04-05 and havnt just joined. and in such know the ropes and are in all honesty the most flex able to RP with.

Then we have the 'Number crunchers' (Once again my own term) Those that Will quite happily pick you up on the slightest fault in some god forsaken statistic. These people in all honesty i think are just as bad as the newbies, and some times i think they just pull you up on things just so they can get the edge over you in an RP. knowledge is power and if you know how some thing works another doesn't then you could make up anything. younger Rpers look up to the older ones (i know i did and still do) and these guys set a bad example in my opinion They may have been around for god knows how many years but that elitist attitude is what makes me not want to RP with them!

The Newbs, i have Rped with a few and in all honesty i have helped at least two nations to Rp through what i thought was a rather interesting RP to do with the Nativian islands and a rouge nation named Allied Amerika. Whilst this shows that not all Newbs are bad like most people beleive (kind of like the UKs stance on teenagers) there are those such as Hayaba who in all honesty I think are just there to annoy us and troll. which gives the rest of use the impression that all newbs are inherently bad and out to annoy the older generation. Which is not the case at all. This is something i think people are going to have to push forward and show the community that some of these newer People can RP and arnt just out to annoy us.

We need to encourage that interaction once again. Maybe a NS world war? which is open to every one?

[Ozymos]

Honestly, I think MT could learn from FT.

I honestly agree whole heartedly with what Rethan said. Due to the fact that FT isn't organised into sections who keep to themselves, but everything's fairly open, we don't worry about the sort of thing that's happening in Azura's thread; Gholgoth threatening to waste anyone who comes near them.

We need to encourage that interaction once again. Maybe a NS world war? which is open to every one?

As a note, just because the description of the II Subforum says "A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events. [In-character]" does not mean that War is the be all, end all of this Sub-Forum. In my opinion, a World War will likely just make things worse as people bicker and argue about who's doing what and so on.

[Dimoniquid]

We need to encourage that interaction once again. Maybe a NS world war? which is open to every one?

To be honest, I think that's a bad idea. If entire regions would want to participate, then the maps would be bloody complicated - and 'modders like... well... I would say Hayaba, but Jenrak's here... anyway, 'modders would be threatening the entire world with nuclear weapons, and then nukes would be flying around like no tomorrow. So, really, it would be a bad idea. Plus tech - MT's and PMT's? That would be fine. Having space ships bombarding...

[Lhazastan]

I, for one, think that you, Jenrak, should consider using your mod powers more and not letting people skate by with regular text suggestions that most probably don't even read

not that that's the core of the problem, but I don't think it's helping at all

I also sincerely doubt that any kind of large war will help. a lot of us don't really want to get involved in things like that and we're just as much a part of the community as you are. well, they, since I'm considering giving up on MT but that's really neither here nor there

also also: I agree with the last half of Ozymos's post. I can't agree with the first half though since I don't know what he's talking about

[Oseato]

Another off-putting item (which made me switch to FT and generally avoid MT like the plague for a long time) was the people so deadset on realism that if you don't use perfect tactics and basically understand how modern warfare works in real life, right down to the power behind a tank's particular round and the benefits of one round type vs. another, you're going to be called out on it and pretty much have all creativity crushed. If I wanted real world political stuff to read, I'd go watch the fucking news. It's ridiculous.

This is a problem in some RPs and with some players, but I think if you took a look at some of the better RPs here on II and on the different regional forums you'll find that this isn't generally the case. I know a lot more RPers who are focused on story much more than technological aspects of the RP. Sure, if someone misses something or is using some absurd technology you're going to have some issues there, but most of the time you're going to find people who could care less about technology than they do about advancing a certain storyline.

That being said there seems to be a huge focus on II on technology and how awesome someone's tech compared to someone else and that generally devolves into a bunch of bickering because people don't take the appropriate amount of casualties or something. I know we've all heard the complaints about too much realism and technobabble, but I really believe that is the exception in RPs and not the rule.

Also of note is a recent attempt by the Conglomerate to teach an alliance filled with newer players how to roleplay through the method which would best draw them in. Most newer players (I know, I was one once) enjoy warfare, and why not? Done right it can be immense fun. The problem is people misunderstood the Cong's intentions and thought the Cong was declaring ware because they disagreed with how the other players were roleplaying. Granted, the conglomerate players involved didn't (to my eye) make their intentions wholly clear, hence the misunderstanding. Cue the fragmented rivalries as Cong-hating players jumped in to condemn a legitimate attempt at helping newbies learn the ropes.

I also think there is an issue here. A lot of people really did not feel that beating the stuffing out of a bunch of new players was going to help them improve in any way. And if I could forestall any comments about how I've had issues with the Conglomerate in the past, it wasn't just myself and the specific RPing circle I am in that believes this. There's a saying that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar and I think that idiom is quite applicable to this part of the topic. We were all young RPers once, some of us were good from the get go, some of us needed a lot of improvement. However, in most cases we didn't improve and stay this long because we constantly had the snot kicked out of us by older members. In most cases, you're just going to drive people away when you force your effort to "improve them" on the certain rper. Most of the people who need help and support are going to resent being dog-piled and having their own destruction forced on them by people they didn't consent to RPing with in the first place.

I will agree that something needs to be done about the quality on MT II, and I don't believe we can just let people alone to do whatever they want particularly in situations like those involving Habaya, but invading, defeating, and subjugating unskilled RPers is definitely not the way to go. I think if people really wish to improve II, they should get involved in some of standing RPs in a positive way and not the "I'm an older nation so surrender to me" way. Offer help in the form of opening some of the RPs people create and getting new RPers involved or contact an RPer to offer help creating a good RP to help them improve.

I know NST has already tried some of this and hasn't been all that effective, but I think we're going to come to the conclusion that, frankly, we can't "save" everyone. I believe, in the end, that more people will be helped if people get them involved in a positive way and not by beating them up.

[Stoklomolvi]

I, for one, think that you, Jenrak, should consider using your mod powers more and not letting people skate by with regular text suggestions that most probably don't even read

I strongly, strongly agree with this notion.

[Rethan]

Let's break it down now *commence music*

This is a problem in some RPs and with some players, but I think if you took a look at some of the better RPs here on II and on the different regional forums you'll find that this isn't generally the case. I know a lot more RPers who are focused on story much more than technological aspects of the RP. Sure, if someone misses something or is using some absurd technology you're going to have some issues there, but most of the time you're going to find people who could care less about technology than they do about advancing a certain storyline.

That being said there seems to be a huge focus on II on technology and how awesome someone's tech compared to someone else and that generally devolves into a bunch of bickering because people don't take the appropriate amount of casualties or something. I know we've all heard the complaints about too much realism and technobabble, but I really believe that is the exception in RPs and not the rule.

I'm willing to concede this point. As my disclaimer said it was my own experience and perhaps I just got unlucky in the RPs I read. But if this was the feeling I got from MT, it's also possible others get the same impression, which is still a problem. Be it right or wrong. Tech shouldn't ever really matter, since a competitive roleplay should have both layers agreeing on an outcome (preferably prior to actually starting).

I also think there is an issue here. A lot of people really did not feel that beating the stuffing out of a bunch of new players was going to help them improve in any way. And if I could forestall any comments about how I've had issues with the Conglomerate in the past, it wasn't just myself and the specific RPing circle I am in that believes this. There's a saying that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar and I think that idiom is quite applicable to this part of the topic. We were all young RPers once, some of us were good from the get go, some of us needed a lot of improvement. However, in most cases we didn't improve and stay this long because we constantly had the snot kicked out of us by older members. In most cases, you're just going to drive people away when you force your effort to "improve them" on the certain rper. Most of the people who need help and support are going to resent being dog-piled and having their own destruction forced on them by people they didn't consent to RPing with in the first place.

Point. However, from my own examining of the case and the people involved it didn't seem that the Conglomerate wished to actually subjugate the newer players. Granted, there are some members of the Conglomerate who probably did have that intention. New Azura, (who I believe started the war and made the declaration) did not as far as I am aware. He simply wished to provide a way to teach younger players in a manner which may have interested them. I know when I first started off, war roleplays were more interesting to me than others. They still are, though to a lesser degree.

I will agree that something needs to be done about the quality on MT II, and I don't believe we can just let people alone to do whatever they want particularly in situations like those involving Habaya, but invading, defeating, and subjugating unskilled RPers is definitely not the way to go. I think if people really wish to improve II, they should get involved in some of standing RPs in a positive way and not the "I'm an older nation so surrender to me" way. Offer help in the form of opening some of the RPs people create and getting new RPers involved or contact an RPer to offer help creating a good RP to help them improve.

I know NST has already tried some of this and hasn't been all that effective, but I think we're going to come to the conclusion that, frankly, we can't "save" everyone. I believe, in the end, that more people will be helped if people get them involved in a positive way and not by beating them up.

Agreed. NST doesn't seem to have worked, but that could just be because a lot of people aren't looking to be helped. Got to cut loose the failing limbs to save the tree and all such metaphors. I'd be quite happy to have a small skirmish with a newer roleplayer, and I wouldn't necessarily have to win, so bigger players aren't always out for a curbstomp in a war. It's another unfortunate thing I see all too often in MT that small skirmishes escalate into war pretty much instantly, which probably also puts off newer players since they look at the full resources of an 8 billion nation and promptly wet themselves.

In short, beating them up can help. So long as it's a schoolyard beat up and not a "hit by a truck" kind of beat up. That which does not kill makes one stronger. It's quite obvious that a lot of the n00bs we see that need improvement almost exclusively declare war and get involved in war threads. Hence a war roleplay is the best way to rope them in and try to improve them. If (like certain nameless individuals) they refuse to improve....then curbstomp them. I'm kidding with that last bit, honest.

---

I, for one, think that you, Jenrak, should consider using your mod powers more and not letting people skate by with regular text suggestions that most probably don't even read

I strongly, strongly agree with this notion.

So long as you guys are recommending the mod weapon usage on those who simply post "lol fail. Go die" in newer player threads, I agree.

[Amazonian Beasts]

I'm not going to cover all of this seeing that I've dabbled considerably more in FT (which I consider much more open and accommodating) than MT/PMT (hell, PMT has almost died) in the past year. However, to address the Hayaba situation, my advice is to take a page out of real life.

If you don't get along with someone OOCly, don't try to force things into an IC thread because it'll end badly for everyone.

You don't try to do things with people you don't like all the time in real life. You don't go party with guys who annoy you, you don't watch a football game with a dude you can't stand, etc, etc. Similarly, if you don't like a guy (as in the Hayaba case, it certainly seems like Hayaba and the others don't get along) than just don't associate with them. Pretty simple concept that generally works in the FT community.

Vizion's NST concept was a great idea when he pushed forward version 2, but the problem there is that a lot of younger players here on NS lack the confidence to actually seek out help. When the older guys aren't as inclined to RP with the younger guys and the younger guys don't want to provide a bad first impression to the older guys, you create the polarization that we see on NS MT today of veteran groups and younger groups. This is not an end-all, be-all law, but it's a trend that's becoming increasingly common.

[Astholm]

I treat this as what it's meant to be, fun/satire/parody, and not let it be something to get worked up about.
You can't know what someone's like if you've never interacted with them, which is why I try to interact in as many RP's as I can, also it's good for my creative writing skills.
Nonetheless, personal criticisms and attacks are unacceptable, as always, and RP's shouldn't be about that. I mean, I'm great with Factbooks and Global Economics & Trade roleplays, but not others, however, I'm diversifying and trying new things on here, which is enjoyable.

I've stepped back now, and looked at it from a disinterested point of view - this is not a free-for-all like some other websites, it has rules. If people want to carry out these vendettas, it should be offsite, not on here where this site has a reputation to maintain (and I'm speaking from a website manager's PoV here).

If people want to argue the toss over things, it shouldn't happen here, but off-site, unless it's an OOC thread discussing MT/FT technology, and there's no personal attacks.

I know this sounds long-winded, but it's not intended as a rant, just open discussion, and my opinions. Your mileage may vary, but I hope I've made some valid points here.

Disclaimer: This is opinion, and not official.

[Third Spanish States]

First, I think there is a need for everyone to realize how much of a powerful cover for trolling the fact something is assumed to be In-character rather than Out-of-character, thus things that would be locked for being spam or flaming in other boards always will get the benefit of doubt in II. Believe it or not, some of the n00bs actually don't change because they love to see everyone getting upset about what they do, and I'd go as far as to say some of them are puppets created by older NSes for the lulz. The best solution when it becomes clear someone is beyond repair is to stop giving attention to this NS threads, ostracize the same for him to realize that unless he changes, he'll be ignored.

Second, being part of the mentioned "Haven crowd" for a relatively recent amount of time, I can say most of the members are getting older, and thus, ending with greater and greater RL priorities which is why they simply can't keep up with the usual pace of II. Finally, it is a matter of logic as well. In reality no country will intervene in something that is incredibly far away from it. Regions give definition to the blank of geography, and add geopolitical dynamics to the hazy, unclear mess that is the "NSEarth". But everytime I see a "LOL I ignore -insert region here-" it is a good example of part of the blame over older players for the sad state of NS play-by-post RPing boards. For example, a NS player I posted a lot with decided to summarily ignore everything we did together in II as soon as I joined Haven, which just made absolutely no sense. AFAIK nobody in Haven ever did an arbitrary region-wide IGNORE, although many ignore those who obviously want to crave attention by making horrible threads and refusing advice, and a few have taken a "every new player is a n00b I'll ignore until proven otherwise" approach to II, when not outrightly stopping bothering with it, due to the way things went. And, there are those who simply enjoy the fact they have either full control or people they trust and know better controlling the boards where they post. It is no secret the existence of an old, several years old grudge from a handful of NS mods linked to #nationstates with part of the NSD/#draftroom/Haven crowd, borne out of what I presume to be political belief differences, criticism over the practice of brown nosing and in part of the old secession and II vs. NS thing and also of gameplay originated mods having a grudge with RPers or something. Thus of course they'd rather post in a forum where nobody who can lock a thread you start has a grudge with them, or where they can call an eternal n00b as a retard and tell them to GTFO instead of appeasing their persistent and perhaps intentional trollbait threads under the guise of "in-character" that a time ago tended to get everyone but themselves warned.

Third, a few of the same older players who will dedicate 40 lines for posting ORBATs, how awesome the designs they posted in NSD are and their strategies and at best only 5 lines for character and story developments are in the end as bad to RP with as the worst n00b. They are those who may know something, write well, but when it comes to any situation where, in a conflict, they'd have to accept the prospect of not always winning, they'll never step down, and thus either the other side will reach a point where he will have to be permissive and allow his NS to be totally destroyed, or throw an OOC rant about how player y is a wanker and ignore the entire thing.

Fourth, believe it or not, the fact a person had to go through a slightly complex procedure to get registered in Jolt worked as an "idiot filter" of sorts. For most the procedure may seem not that complicated, but it has barred some of the worst currently in, probably either people way too young to get it, way too dumb(just pick a random Youtube video and look at the comments if you want good examples of what idiocy in the Internet is), or trolls who saw the hassle for registering as not worth the time. With the return to its own forums, things became more accessible and the Eternal September of International Incidents reached its apex.

Fifth, the NS MT RPing scene became way too stratified. AFAIK there has been no serious shift of power since 2005 among the regions, in part because of the third thing I mentioned, in part because of the fact that since 2007, very few people with potential to become good RPers arrived that could form a strong enough block/region to counter the traditional ones. It is an indirect consequence of the situation of NS as a whole, because it has reached the final point. That point where an online community slowly declines and mostly survives with the members it already has.

Sixth, not everybody wants to write a "Cool Story Bro" grade wall of text that is filled with purple prose and excessive and arguably unneeded descriptions. For one, as of now my desire to make truly tl;dr posts have waned a lot. Quantity is not necessarily quality and that is something everyone need to understand. Not that an one-liner could ever not suck, but nobody needs an OP with the length of a 1900 pages long suicide note either. Immediately decryign someone for using succint posts is not something. For one, I've seen a few good and developing new RPers from 2010 in II, and most of them have focused almost exclusively in character and story-centric RPs, where those focused in war RPs have for most part been horrible.

In short, one of the ways to improve things is to systematically ignore those who obviously want to crave attention with shitty posts, make collective Foe lists, and slowly filter out the worse from International Incidents. Or maybe use this, although I presume it would be a very polemic alternative:

http://stupidfilter.org/main/

Thus I hope my 2 cents have some worth. And one more thing: not everyone in the old regions fully ignores II, although I have a large cadre of puppets I post more oftenly with.

[Jenrak]

In regards to the 'mod power' thing, I'd prefer not imposing mod powers in RP threads, since we're not there to impose things in RPs.

If they're trolling or anything, that's a different thing, but poor RPing isn't something that can really be enforced.

[Lhazastan]

it's not about poor RPing, it's about not just trolling, but spamming and generally being a hella unpleasant person (harassment and flamebaiting) to other players. this is a fairly common thing that is actually something you should actually be enforcing harder. I saw a ban in your own thread that Katganistan caught because of behavior in it. it's not that you should have been there sooner, we all have lives, but that people are so brazen that they will harass players in a thread a mod created and frequents

[The State of Monavia]

My advice will be brief for the moment, as the hour is late in my time zone and I have little to say.

First, noobs like Hayaba should be ejected/expelled after repeated actions which result in the aggrievement of the community. Anyone who conducts themselves in a manner as unspeakable as the infamous "Hataria" should be deleted outright after multiple offenses.

Second, the banhammer exists for a reason. I second Stoklomolvi's suggestion.

Third, I should point out that my region, Nova, is trying to attract new recurits, and has had an active recruiting program for quite a while. The reason why we only net a few every year is because we don't make as many waves as Haven and Gholgoth and because we don't accepts noobs and low caliber writers. We are willing to RP with and even train some of the newbies, provided that they are cooperative and willing to learn, so yes, anyone with a brain and some manners could plausibly be qualified to join Nova. We are not as exclusive as some would think...

Fourth, there will be no "Blackhelm Countdowns" coming from me or any other Nova, or allies of Nova. That's because of [ur=http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=2247079#p2247079]what we did to Blackhelm[/url].

Fifth, I know that a few players simply refuse to RP with a few other players. There are some who maintain blacklists which extend beyone the scope of their storefronts.

Sixth, if you find a troll, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! If their thread is loaded with fail, don't post "You fail." messages in it, because you are feeding them and wasting your own time.

Seventh, people need to cut back on the vulgarity, profanity, and plain rudeness in OOC discussion. It is not cool. Dropping four-letter words every other sentence does not make you badass. It make you look like a jerk and an a******.

Eighth, there is no excuse for veteran posters to act like noobs. Vets need to set examples for the newbies.

Ninth, be more respectful on General. I only read General and refrain from posting anything there whatsoever because respectable topics become flame wars at the drop of a hat and folks become vicious towards one another. General used to be the cesspool of NS in the Jolt days, and it has not improved much. Discussions are usually trashed by a few newbies walking in and making statements without checking their facts, or writing arguments and exceeding the scope of their competence in the process.

Tenth, when making an OOC argument, please check your facts if you are arguing with someone who nitpicks statistics.

[The PeoplesFreedom]

First.

There are certain people that just don't get it. Either they're trolls, or too young, or too plain stupid to understand the game, and never improve. I don't know what to do about these players, since mods won't ban them. Some simple advice? Ignore them.

However, there are numerous RPers whom aren't quite experienced enough to roll with the best Rpers, but are far too smart to hang with the rejects. Thus, a solution. A practical one.

http://z4.invisionfree.invalid.com/NSDraftroom/ ... topic=8710

This is a way to enforce standards on the RP community completely voluntarily. It allows for the best RPers to come out of the safety of region-rules and internal forums. It allowed for the resolution of arguments without mod intervention.

Furthermore I think mods should stay and only police the forums of their specialty, but the mods already very rudely shot it down.

[Izistan]

First.

There are certain people that just don't get it. Either they're trolls, or too young, or too plain stupid to understand the game, and never improve. I don't know what to do about these players, since mods won't ban them. Some simple advice? Ignore them.

However, there are numerous RPers whom aren't quite experienced enough to roll with the best Rpers, but are far too smart to hang with the rejects. Thus, a solution. A practical one.

http://z4.invisionfree.invalid.com/NSDraftroom/ ... topic=8710

This is a way to enforce standards on the RP community completely voluntarily. It allows for the best RPers to come out of the safety of region-rules and internal forums. It allowed for the resolution of arguments without mod intervention.

Furthermore I think mods should stay and only police the forums of their specialty, but the mods already very rudely shot it down.

This was done in the Amerigo War back in the dark ages. I agree with TPF in regards to this.

[Skibereen]

I'm not inclined to deliver a wall of text in this thread...though I must admit this has been the easiest read II has had for a long time.

TPF has suggested a player run Arbitration group for settling certain dispute types where two or more players in an argument go can to receive fair third party resolution. A voluntary move to demonstrate a desire to improve not merely in story telling but in over all courtesy and mature interaction. I feel a suggestion such as this speaks to the heart of the issue, involvement of relatively skilled experienced players aiding newer players. Moderation(no offense) is effectively impotent with regards to improving quality barring the Mods turning into a banhammer mafia of the best players...I loathe that thought.

There are things that new players can find frustrating, like technophiles ...consider however the level of effort those same annoying technophiles have placed into this hobby(which for many is exactly what NS is) to be so well informed on Modern Technology...I mean did we forget that MT stands for Modern Technology, so demanding some realism isnt really asking that much. However our statistical number machines and would be engineers could stand to 'fly by the seat of their pants' a bit more.

When I started playing RP courtesy was something the players assaulted new players with, it was smacked over the head quickly, decisively, but with good intentions not with "lol n00b gtfo" .

It didnt matter what given piece of metal I RP'd I was using...the story was written fairly, and creative ideas regardless of how unrealistic were applauded and the lack of realism was worked around and adapted to, as long as there was no godmod all was good...keep the story moving.

So yes, the Communist Workers Nation of Unified Farmers did indeed maintain its economy via its massive potato reserves...because it was merely color for the story.

The diamond plated laser gun carrying tanks were fine because the guy rping them took losses, and admitted when he fucked up...as long as the story was good.

One phrase I saw more then anything other then "No Godmoding" was "No one liners, unless it fits the story"

I dont see very many people talking about the story anymore. I love designing my own equipment, I suck at it for the most part compared to some of the NSDers but I love it and I get help from them, because I want help and they WANT to give it.

I like NS, its my hobby, and I want to help other people with the story. That is what NS is, one big never ending novel with a countless number of authors and editors. So my suggestion isnt for Jenrak, or the other mods(beyond really, kill the trolls and leave the rest of us alone) my suggestion is to the players - Do something, help the story, and if you find people who dont want to write , then they should be ignored. They should be ignored because this entire board exists for writing fiction in a cooperative and collective fashion(with regards to our NS nations). Writing, respect, and courtesy is what will help II, not just doing it yourself but letting it be known you expect it from everyone else.


Additionally I volunteered to help TPF with the Arbitration. While I have in the past rubbed members of NSG the wrong way, and insulted the Mods. I try very hard to have gentle hand with the Roleplayers.

Thanks for reading what the old guy wrote.

[Terraius]

Most people in FT know eachother and 99% of RP is planned out to prevent OOC conflict; we are a much smaller community compared to MTPMT so that is to be expected I guess.

[Old Erisia]

I agree 100% with the idea of a Arbitration group (who should keep a blacklist thread for people who simply refuse to play nice).

I would like to say, I am a relatively new player, and I feel like it is very hard to get into a II engagement here. I prefer to play Fantasy type RPs (which I guess would be PMT?), but there is absolutely no co-operation and tons of bad writing. I also wanted to try my hand in FT, but I just find it extremely difficult, as I don't really know anyone in the RP community. I would also like to mention that it is a HUGE time commitment to make a factbook, and before I do that I would like to RP a bit, or join a group, so I can get feedback and be inspired by what others have done, but it seems impossible. Also, I really like RPing strange creatures and people. I would like to RP my FT nation as being made up of sentient telepathic plants. Just looking at other people's posts and the OOC FT thread make me think that I will never be able to find a group that would accept something like that. Of course, this might just be my perception...

I think that some of these "first-raters" should break off from their groups in order to make new groups. These would increase the amount of circles, increase familiarity across these circles, and give players a chance to break into this world. Also, the new groups will go through that energetic creation phase all over again, which may be a lot of work, but can improve the quality of the RPs here greatly...

Also, I think that EVERY war thread should have an accompanying OOC thread. Hell, every thread could use one.

EDIT: I have an idea, similar to what that group did (the one that failed...). Have a war or as many of these training RPs as you want, and then play them exactly like a normal RP. After its over, has ground to a halt, etc, a new thread can be made, where the "teacher" points out what someone should not have done, and what responses were unwarranted, how this person contributed a continuity hole, etc etc.