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Zhouran
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Posts: 7998
Founded: Feb 09, 2013
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:26 pm

Asigna wrote:
New Aeyariss wrote:
I am sure. L - band or VHF radars have poor resolution in general.


Im back. Before i give my one cent answer, do tell me what else do you mean by low resolution, aside from the notion that one pixel equals several kilometers?

Do you even know how long is a kilometre? If one pixel on a radar represents a kilometre, then you're not gonna have the precise tracking on a small target, let alone a stealthy one.

Actually a low frequency radar, comparable in size to a normal X-Band radar has very poor resolution, to fix this problem the low frequency radar must be built as large as possible to allow an engagement, however this only works on ground based radar stations and is problematic on aircraft, the accuracy of those radars is also inferior to normal radars, the frequency must be higher to get a lock with a missile, so that precision targeting cannot be done like on X-Band radars.

In Air to Air combat L-band using radar can be easily detected using passive detection, long before it will be able to track the enemy.

The US Department of Defence made the following statement: “The Northrop-Grumman B-2A 'Batwing' is sufficiently large that its shaping remains effective against lower band radars. The same is not true for fighters with LO shaping“, in fact this means that large stealth planes are still stealthy against low band radars, but Fighters with LO (Low Observable) shaping (alias F-35 Lightning II) are not stealthy enough to remain invisible against those radar systems.

The same does not go for Very Low Observable (VLO) aircraft, as seen in the Ausairpower statement made by Dr. Carlo Kopp: “Low band radars are not a panacea for the defeat of VLO (Very Low Observable) aircraft. Their angular accuracy has been until recently poor, and the required antenna size results in ungainly systems which are usually slow to deploy and stow, even if designed from the outset for mobility. The size and high power emissions of these radars, in types with limited mobility, makes them much easier to detect and destroy than typical mobile systems operating in the decimetric and centimetric bands, which can relocate rapidly after a missile shot.”

This statement means that low band radars are not an Ideal solution against VLO aircraft, because to detect them the radar stations must be very, very large and much to large to be mounted on an aircraft, so that the L-Band radars on the Sukhoi PAK-FA are actually useless, everything they would do at the end is letting a listening F-22 (or F-35) knowing that there´s a PAK-FA somewhere. They are also unable to provide target guidance for the weapons without being ungainly large, that’s the reason for those massive antennas on the ground based radar stations, to get at least a bit of accuracy.

To conclude, here are the general disadvantages of low band radars in shortened form:

They are unable to provide weapon guidance because of bad resolution and accuracy
They need to be ungainly large to track an aircraft accurately
When mounted on aircraft, they are too small to track something or to get a lock on, everything that would happen at the end is letting the enemy know that there´s something out there
But in reality, the L-Band radars of PAK-FA are primarily used for friend-or-foe identification and electronic warfare, not target acquisition directly. Although the data will be used in the final data processing/analysis, whenever available.


The general advantages of low band radars in shortened form:

Large UHF, S and L-band radars usually serve as early warning for other higher band radars.
If linked to other radar stations (both ground based and airborne), this can provide very effective means for early target acquisition. Using an array of different radar bands for triangulation and scanning "suspect regions".
Small L-Band radars can be useful for electronic warfare, friend-or-foe identification, decoy and illumination.


Source

While HF radars can spot stealth planes, they cannot guide missiles to targets—for now. Even so, the radars are useful in providing an early warning network, cueing Chinese fighter planes such as the J-11—also based on an artificial island in the South China Sea—to the probable location of stealth aircraft.

Source


Ground Based Radar

The Lower Frequency Bands (UHF/VHF) are more effective in detecting stealth aircraft - especially small fighter size aircraft. This is because their shape looses effectiveness against longer radar wavelengths. These radar frequencies have very poor resolution and are prone to atmospheric clutter (since they can also detect clouds, rain drop lets, etc.). With recent advancements, they’ve improved a lot - to a point that they can be used as Early Warning radars. These frequencies are actually used in Search Radars - they work effective in terms of detecting smaller objects.

However, there’s a big difference between detection (search radars) & targeting (fire-control radars). Most of the systems using Lower frequency search radars still rely on X band (or higher frequency) fire-control radars for targeting purpose. This is because such radars (lower frequency) still have poor accuracy & can’t be used for effective targeting purposes like in X Band (higher frequency). So the targeting range is extremely low in most cases (if any*). Only those using powerful S band, the targeting range is somewhat better.

It is also important to note that:

Very few countries have developed effective UHF/VHF search radars against smaller LO aircraft and in all cases, these radars need to be huge - irrespective of being mobile. Thus, limited to mainly ground based units.
Using Lower frequency bands needs more power - this is very dangerous. Such radars can be detected from very very long range. With advanced RWR or Passive radars (such as those present in LO aircraft), precise geo-location of such radar units can be known from far away - much before entering their ‘detecting zone’.
These search radars might be effective for small fighter size aircraft but not against larger aircraft like B-2. The size of B-2 is large enough to remain stealthy against Lower Frequency radars as well.
Fighter aircrafts

Almost all of the fighter aircraft relies on X Band radars due to limited space available. As said before, LO aircraft are designed to be highly stealthy against X band. In most cases, VLO aircraft like F-22 Raptor will remain undetected at almost all ranges against them.

The Su-35 S seems to have a very powerful radar. The manufacturer claim it to be able to detect LO aircraft. Theoretically it can detect LO aircraft (like F-35) from about 45 km (the 90 km figure is based on 50% probability) in a very narrow cone from the Su-35’s nose. However, practically how reliable such detection will be is debatable, especially with EW and it’s relatively quite easy for LO aircraft like F-35 to change it’s course to avoid detection.

Anyways, irrespective of being able to detect or not. None can at least use their own fire-control radar for targeting such LO aircraft. The only way for fighter aircrafts to engage LO aircraft is to rely on IRST (which is limited in operational range) & use WVR IR missiles. So in this area they’re quite safe.

IRST

Several fighter aircrafts have IRST for Infrared detection. This can be used against LO aircraft. Their operational range is about 50–80 km (as they’re prone to external factors). However, LO aircraft usually also have low IR signature. Thus, their detection range is further reduced.

However, the LO aircraft can also be detected by enemy passive radars (or RWR) if they’re indiscriminately using their own radars (especially for Russian & Chinese 5th gen. aircraft). Further, LO aircraft which are not that stealthy (like PAK FA) might be detected by powerful radars (in X band) at close or moderate ranges.

So What does it mean?

The state of detection of LO aircraft have improved a lot but it’s not widely available and targeting area have improved but in-effective in most cases.

However, this is far more worse for non-stealth aircraft. Even a moderate Integrated Air Defence network pose great challenges for all 4th generation fighters irrespective of how agile or manoeuvrable they are.

Stealth is the future, leave aside some useless propaganda and then you’ll realise how useful & important stealth is in today’s combat. No matter how much detection range improves, a stealth aircraft will always be detected much much later* than a non-stealth aircraft - that’s the reality. As detection/targeting techniques improve, so does stealth

Source

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New Aeyariss
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Founded: May 12, 2010
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Postby New Aeyariss » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:31 pm

@Zhou: Fun fact: you posted article I was reading seconds ago :D!
Rping in MT (2023) and PT/FanT (1564)


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Also known as El Cuscatlan, Jesus will offer you eternal life if you believe in him!


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Asigna
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Posts: 13543
Founded: Aug 24, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:34 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Asigna wrote:
Im back. Before i give my one cent answer, do tell me what else do you mean by low resolution, aside from the notion that one pixel equals several kilometers?

Do you even know how long is a kilometre? If one pixel on a radar represents a kilometre, then you're not gonna have the precise tracking on a small target, let alone a stealthy one.

Actually a low frequency radar, comparable in size to a normal X-Band radar has very poor resolution, to fix this problem the low frequency radar must be built as large as possible to allow an engagement, however this only works on ground based radar stations and is problematic on aircraft, the accuracy of those radars is also inferior to normal radars, the frequency must be higher to get a lock with a missile, so that precision targeting cannot be done like on X-Band radars.

In Air to Air combat L-band using radar can be easily detected using passive detection, long before it will be able to track the enemy.

The US Department of Defence made the following statement: “The Northrop-Grumman B-2A 'Batwing' is sufficiently large that its shaping remains effective against lower band radars. The same is not true for fighters with LO shaping“, in fact this means that large stealth planes are still stealthy against low band radars, but Fighters with LO (Low Observable) shaping (alias F-35 Lightning II) are not stealthy enough to remain invisible against those radar systems.

The same does not go for Very Low Observable (VLO) aircraft, as seen in the Ausairpower statement made by Dr. Carlo Kopp: “Low band radars are not a panacea for the defeat of VLO (Very Low Observable) aircraft. Their angular accuracy has been until recently poor, and the required antenna size results in ungainly systems which are usually slow to deploy and stow, even if designed from the outset for mobility. The size and high power emissions of these radars, in types with limited mobility, makes them much easier to detect and destroy than typical mobile systems operating in the decimetric and centimetric bands, which can relocate rapidly after a missile shot.”

This statement means that low band radars are not an Ideal solution against VLO aircraft, because to detect them the radar stations must be very, very large and much to large to be mounted on an aircraft, so that the L-Band radars on the Sukhoi PAK-FA are actually useless, everything they would do at the end is letting a listening F-22 (or F-35) knowing that there´s a PAK-FA somewhere. They are also unable to provide target guidance for the weapons without being ungainly large, that’s the reason for those massive antennas on the ground based radar stations, to get at least a bit of accuracy.

To conclude, here are the general disadvantages of low band radars in shortened form:

They are unable to provide weapon guidance because of bad resolution and accuracy
They need to be ungainly large to track an aircraft accurately
When mounted on aircraft, they are too small to track something or to get a lock on, everything that would happen at the end is letting the enemy know that there´s something out there
But in reality, the L-Band radars of PAK-FA are primarily used for friend-or-foe identification and electronic warfare, not target acquisition directly. Although the data will be used in the final data processing/analysis, whenever available.


The general advantages of low band radars in shortened form:

Large UHF, S and L-band radars usually serve as early warning for other higher band radars.
If linked to other radar stations (both ground based and airborne), this can provide very effective means for early target acquisition. Using an array of different radar bands for triangulation and scanning "suspect regions".
Small L-Band radars can be useful for electronic warfare, friend-or-foe identification, decoy and illumination.


Source

While HF radars can spot stealth planes, they cannot guide missiles to targets—for now. Even so, the radars are useful in providing an early warning network, cueing Chinese fighter planes such as the J-11—also based on an artificial island in the South China Sea—to the probable location of stealth aircraft.

Source


Ground Based Radar

The Lower Frequency Bands (UHF/VHF) are more effective in detecting stealth aircraft - especially small fighter size aircraft. This is because their shape looses effectiveness against longer radar wavelengths. These radar frequencies have very poor resolution and are prone to atmospheric clutter (since they can also detect clouds, rain drop lets, etc.). With recent advancements, they’ve improved a lot - to a point that they can be used as Early Warning radars. These frequencies are actually used in Search Radars - they work effective in terms of detecting smaller objects.

However, there’s a big difference between detection (search radars) & targeting (fire-control radars). Most of the systems using Lower frequency search radars still rely on X band (or higher frequency) fire-control radars for targeting purpose. This is because such radars (lower frequency) still have poor accuracy & can’t be used for effective targeting purposes like in X Band (higher frequency). So the targeting range is extremely low in most cases (if any*). Only those using powerful S band, the targeting range is somewhat better.

It is also important to note that:

Very few countries have developed effective UHF/VHF search radars against smaller LO aircraft and in all cases, these radars need to be huge - irrespective of being mobile. Thus, limited to mainly ground based units.
Using Lower frequency bands needs more power - this is very dangerous. Such radars can be detected from very very long range. With advanced RWR or Passive radars (such as those present in LO aircraft), precise geo-location of such radar units can be known from far away - much before entering their ‘detecting zone’.
These search radars might be effective for small fighter size aircraft but not against larger aircraft like B-2. The size of B-2 is large enough to remain stealthy against Lower Frequency radars as well.
Fighter aircrafts

Almost all of the fighter aircraft relies on X Band radars due to limited space available. As said before, LO aircraft are designed to be highly stealthy against X band. In most cases, VLO aircraft like F-22 Raptor will remain undetected at almost all ranges against them.

The Su-35 S seems to have a very powerful radar. The manufacturer claim it to be able to detect LO aircraft. Theoretically it can detect LO aircraft (like F-35) from about 45 km (the 90 km figure is based on 50% probability) in a very narrow cone from the Su-35’s nose. However, practically how reliable such detection will be is debatable, especially with EW and it’s relatively quite easy for LO aircraft like F-35 to change it’s course to avoid detection.

Anyways, irrespective of being able to detect or not. None can at least use their own fire-control radar for targeting such LO aircraft. The only way for fighter aircrafts to engage LO aircraft is to rely on IRST (which is limited in operational range) & use WVR IR missiles. So in this area they’re quite safe.

IRST

Several fighter aircrafts have IRST for Infrared detection. This can be used against LO aircraft. Their operational range is about 50–80 km (as they’re prone to external factors). However, LO aircraft usually also have low IR signature. Thus, their detection range is further reduced.

However, the LO aircraft can also be detected by enemy passive radars (or RWR) if they’re indiscriminately using their own radars (especially for Russian & Chinese 5th gen. aircraft). Further, LO aircraft which are not that stealthy (like PAK FA) might be detected by powerful radars (in X band) at close or moderate ranges.

So What does it mean?

The state of detection of LO aircraft have improved a lot but it’s not widely available and targeting area have improved but in-effective in most cases.

However, this is far more worse for non-stealth aircraft. Even a moderate Integrated Air Defence network pose great challenges for all 4th generation fighters irrespective of how agile or manoeuvrable they are.

Stealth is the future, leave aside some useless propaganda and then you’ll realise how useful & important stealth is in today’s combat. No matter how much detection range improves, a stealth aircraft will always be detected much much later* than a non-stealth aircraft - that’s the reality. As detection/targeting techniques improve, so does stealth

Source


You're all not listening were you (or reading is the correct term for a situation like this)? :p

Pls reread this. I beseech you. I need not to go through the trouble of having to explain things all over again.

And no, Zhouran's articles don't even apply since i'm using ground based static platforms not aircraft ones.

Seriously, i'm two posts away before i start hurling insults. >:( Get what i'm posting in your heads!
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
THE GREATER PHILIPPINE BAYAN
Hukbo/Military -
THE HOMELAND TERRITORIES - foreign affairs
Visit our nation! - Asigna TV - Know the Light of Heaven

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Zhouran
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Founded: Feb 09, 2013
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:37 pm

New Aeyariss wrote:@Zhou: Fun fact: you posted article I was reading seconds ago :D!

That's just coincidence my good friend :lol:

Being an aviation fan, I do like looking into these types of fields such as radars and electronic warfare.

Anyway, Asigna, here's an interesting part:
The only problem with metric radars is that they are 2D radars and cannot tell the actual altitude of the target, which is why the Russians uses combined radars complexes for this task, having another radar in another band detecting the altitude of the target.


While I'm not sure about how truly effective this is, it seems that overlapping and combining could be the best counter-stealth tactic. Do you have any other radars your military deploys?
Asigna wrote:And no, Zhouran's articles don't even apply since i'm using ground based static platforms not aircraft ones.

Seriously, i'm two posts away before i start hurling insults. >:( Get what i'm posting in your heads!

I'm pretty sure this applies to ground-based platforms as well. You also need to listen as well rather than listening to yourself.

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Asigna
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Founded: Aug 24, 2013
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Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:43 pm

Zhouran wrote:
New Aeyariss wrote:@Zhou: Fun fact: you posted article I was reading seconds ago :D!

That's just coincidence my good friend :lol:

Being an aviation fan, I do like looking into these types of fields such as radars and electronic warfare.

Anyway, Asigna, here's an interesting part:
The only problem with metric radars is that they are 2D radars and cannot tell the actual altitude of the target, which is why the Russians uses combined radars complexes for this task, having another radar in another band detecting the altitude of the target.


While I'm not sure about how truly effective this is, it seems that overlapping and combining could be the best counter-stealth tactic. Do you have any other radars your military deploys?
Asigna wrote:And no, Zhouran's articles don't even apply since i'm using ground based static platforms not aircraft ones.

Seriously, i'm two posts away before i start hurling insults. >:( Get what i'm posting in your heads!

I'm pretty sure this applies to ground-based platforms as well. You also need to listen as well rather than listening to yourself.


First thing's first, let me start with a parenthesized commentary: (I seriously can't believe the OOC fights are more intense than the IC one. :p )

however this only works on ground based radar stations and is problematic on aircraft, the accuracy of those radars is also inferior to normal radars, the frequency must be higher to get a lock with a missile, so that precision targeting cannot be done like on X-Band radars.


You said it yourself. :p

The only problem with metric radars is that they are 2D radars and cannot tell the actual altitude of the target, which is why the Russians uses combined radars complexes for this task, having another radar in another band detecting the altitude of the target.


Haha, you read my mind. :p But i use more complex system. It's a range of VHF to the 4GHz band with dopplerized configuration to allow elimination of clutter seen in VHF and more efficient gating mechanism.
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
THE GREATER PHILIPPINE BAYAN
Hukbo/Military -
THE HOMELAND TERRITORIES - foreign affairs
Visit our nation! - Asigna TV - Know the Light of Heaven

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Zhouran
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Founded: Feb 09, 2013
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:44 pm

Zhouran wrote:Almost all of the fighter aircraft relies on X Band radars due to limited space available. As said before, LO aircraft are designed to be highly stealthy against X band. In most cases, VLO aircraft like F-22 Raptor will remain undetected at almost all ranges against them.

The Su-35 S seems to have a very powerful radar. The manufacturer claim it to be able to detect LO aircraft. Theoretically it can detect LO aircraft (like F-35) from about 45 km (the 90 km figure is based on 50% probability) in a very narrow cone from the Su-35’s nose. However, practically how reliable such detection will be is debatable, especially with EW and it’s relatively quite easy for LO aircraft like F-35 to change it’s course to avoid detection.

Anyways, irrespective of being able to detect or not. None can at least use their own fire-control radar for targeting such LO aircraft. The only way for fighter aircrafts to engage LO aircraft is to rely on IRST (which is limited in operational range) & use WVR IR missiles. So in this area they’re quite safe.


IRST

Several fighter aircrafts have IRST for Infrared detection. This can be used against LO aircraft. Their operational range is about 50–80 km (as they’re prone to external factors). However, LO aircraft usually also have low IR signature. Thus, their detection range is further reduced.

However, the LO aircraft can also be detected by enemy passive radars (or RWR) if they’re indiscriminately using their own radars (especially for Russian & Chinese 5th gen. aircraft). Further, LO aircraft which are not that stealthy (like PAK FA) might be detected by powerful radars (in X band) at close or moderate ranges.


Were you paying attention, Asigna. Also, if you really really want a counter-stealth fighter, why not buy the MiG-31 interceptor since it uses a monstrous passive-electronically scanned array radar?

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Zhouran
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Posts: 7998
Founded: Feb 09, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:46 pm

Asigna wrote:I seriously can't believe the OOC fights are more intense than the IC one.

Because you're not paying attention.
Zhouran wrote:
Zhouran wrote:Almost all of the fighter aircraft relies on X Band radars due to limited space available. As said before, LO aircraft are designed to be highly stealthy against X band. In most cases, VLO aircraft like F-22 Raptor will remain undetected at almost all ranges against them.

The Su-35 S seems to have a very powerful radar. The manufacturer claim it to be able to detect LO aircraft. Theoretically it can detect LO aircraft (like F-35) from about 45 km (the 90 km figure is based on 50% probability) in a very narrow cone from the Su-35’s nose. However, practically how reliable such detection will be is debatable, especially with EW and it’s relatively quite easy for LO aircraft like F-35 to change it’s course to avoid detection.

Anyways, irrespective of being able to detect or not. None can at least use their own fire-control radar for targeting such LO aircraft. The only way for fighter aircrafts to engage LO aircraft is to rely on IRST (which is limited in operational range) & use WVR IR missiles. So in this area they’re quite safe.


IRST

Several fighter aircrafts have IRST for Infrared detection. This can be used against LO aircraft. Their operational range is about 50–80 km (as they’re prone to external factors). However, LO aircraft usually also have low IR signature. Thus, their detection range is further reduced.

However, the LO aircraft can also be detected by enemy passive radars (or RWR) if they’re indiscriminately using their own radars (especially for Russian & Chinese 5th gen. aircraft). Further, LO aircraft which are not that stealthy (like PAK FA) might be detected by powerful radars (in X band) at close or moderate ranges.


Were you paying attention, Asigna. Also, if you really really want a counter-stealth fighter, why not buy the MiG-31 interceptor since it uses a monstrous passive-electronically scanned array radar?

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Asigna
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Posts: 13543
Founded: Aug 24, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:46 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Zhouran wrote:Almost all of the fighter aircraft relies on X Band radars due to limited space available. As said before, LO aircraft are designed to be highly stealthy against X band. In most cases, VLO aircraft like F-22 Raptor will remain undetected at almost all ranges against them.

The Su-35 S seems to have a very powerful radar. The manufacturer claim it to be able to detect LO aircraft. Theoretically it can detect LO aircraft (like F-35) from about 45 km (the 90 km figure is based on 50% probability) in a very narrow cone from the Su-35’s nose. However, practically how reliable such detection will be is debatable, especially with EW and it’s relatively quite easy for LO aircraft like F-35 to change it’s course to avoid detection.

Anyways, irrespective of being able to detect or not. None can at least use their own fire-control radar for targeting such LO aircraft. The only way for fighter aircrafts to engage LO aircraft is to rely on IRST (which is limited in operational range) & use WVR IR missiles. So in this area they’re quite safe.


IRST

Several fighter aircrafts have IRST for Infrared detection. This can be used against LO aircraft. Their operational range is about 50–80 km (as they’re prone to external factors). However, LO aircraft usually also have low IR signature. Thus, their detection range is further reduced.

However, the LO aircraft can also be detected by enemy passive radars (or RWR) if they’re indiscriminately using their own radars (especially for Russian & Chinese 5th gen. aircraft). Further, LO aircraft which are not that stealthy (like PAK FA) might be detected by powerful radars (in X band) at close or moderate ranges.


Were you paying attention, Asigna. Also, if you really really want a counter-stealth fighter, why not buy the MiG-31 interceptor since it uses a monstrous passive-electronically scanned array radar?


That's just one of the many methods. Take note that i'm using ground based radar platforms with enough electronics to trump the PESAs of puny little Russian planes (im saying this to emphasize electronics capacity) then what more could an entire 50-150 meter tower could field? :p
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
THE GREATER PHILIPPINE BAYAN
Hukbo/Military -
THE HOMELAND TERRITORIES - foreign affairs
Visit our nation! - Asigna TV - Know the Light of Heaven

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Zhouran
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Founded: Feb 09, 2013
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:51 pm

Asigna wrote:That's just one of the many methods. Take note that i'm using ground based radar platforms with enough electronics to trump the PESAs of puny little Russian planes (im saying this to emphasize electronics capacity) then what more could an entire 50-150 meter tower could field? :p

Do you have any air-defense units set up? If so, they make good tasty targets for planes.

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Asigna
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Founded: Aug 24, 2013
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Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:52 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Asigna wrote:That's just one of the many methods. Take note that i'm using ground based radar platforms with enough electronics to trump the PESAs of puny little Russian planes (im saying this to emphasize electronics capacity) then what more could an entire 50-150 meter tower could field? :p

Do you have any air-defense units set up? If so, they make good tasty targets for planes.

If the ORBAT is to be cited, yes. Anyway. I thank you for this very enlightening military resources. It's quite hard to find these things in the internet since Google is not all about quality control. :p
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
THE GREATER PHILIPPINE BAYAN
Hukbo/Military -
THE HOMELAND TERRITORIES - foreign affairs
Visit our nation! - Asigna TV - Know the Light of Heaven

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Zhouran
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Founded: Feb 09, 2013
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:55 pm

Also, Asigna what type of SAM systems does the Hukbo use?
Asigna wrote:
Zhouran wrote:Do you have any air-defense units set up? If so, they make good tasty targets for planes.

If the ORBAT is to be cited, yes. Anyway. I thank you for this very enlightening military resources. It's quite hard to find these things in the internet since Google is not all about quality control. :p

Googling is the most simplistic. If I wanted to go further, I would of drive all the way to my university and use their wifi to access their online article library for better sources.

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Asigna
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Founded: Aug 24, 2013
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Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:58 pm

Zhouran wrote:Also, Asigna what type of SAM systems does the Hukbo use?
Asigna wrote:If the ORBAT is to be cited, yes. Anyway. I thank you for this very enlightening military resources. It's quite hard to find these things in the internet since Google is not all about quality control. :p

Googling is the most simplistic. If I wanted to go further, I would of drive all the way to my university and use their wifi to access their online article library for better sources.

Modified S-400, S-300 (only for the sake of their interceptors, not their radar, but the bayan does incorporate some elements of their original radars), pseudo SPAAGs (i call them pseudo SPAAGs since the Vino (Fury) Type 3 SPAAG are not really SPAAGs), ModularR Air Defense System (MRADS), various MANPADs (used only by special forces and Agpalo), LY219/220 Shepherd STMRAD, Skyguard Batteries, 231L Myhla (Lance) SAMs, A3SM AASWM (MICA) and some upcoming Dangan designs for dedicated multirole anti ballistic or intrusion operations (not yet being used).
Last edited by Asigna on Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
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Zhouran
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:03 pm

Asigna wrote:
Zhouran wrote:Also, Asigna what type of SAM systems does the Hukbo use?

Googling is the most simplistic. If I wanted to go further, I would of drive all the way to my university and use their wifi to access their online article library for better sources.

Modified S-400, S-300 (only for the sake of their interceptors, not their radar, but the bayan does incorporate some elements of their original radars), pseudo SPAAGs (i call them pseudo SPAAGs since the Vino (Fury) Type 3 SPAAG are not really SPAAGs), ModularR Air Defense System (MRADS), various MANPADs (used only by special forces and Agpalo, LY219/220 Shepherd STMRAD, Skyguard Batteries, 231L Myhla (Lance) SAMs, A3SM AASWM (MICA) and some upcoming Dangan designs for dedicated multirole anti ballistic or intrusion operations (not yet being used).

If I were you, I would stick the Russian SAMs and replace the fictional NS SAMs with RL SAM systems. Personally, if I were you, I would deploy both Russian and Western-European long-range, medium-range and short-range SAMs.
pseudo SPAAGs (i call them pseudo SPAAGs since the Vino (Fury) Type 3 SPAAG are not really SPAAGs)

Then it's called a self-propelled anti-aircraft system (SPAAS) since it combines both gun and missile.

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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:05 pm

Also, Asigna why are all the MANPADS used by Agpalo and spec-ops only? It should also be used with infantry as well.

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Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:09 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Asigna wrote:Modified S-400, S-300 (only for the sake of their interceptors, not their radar, but the bayan does incorporate some elements of their original radars), pseudo SPAAGs (i call them pseudo SPAAGs since the Vino (Fury) Type 3 SPAAG are not really SPAAGs), ModularR Air Defense System (MRADS), various MANPADs (used only by special forces and Agpalo, LY219/220 Shepherd STMRAD, Skyguard Batteries, 231L Myhla (Lance) SAMs, A3SM AASWM (MICA) and some upcoming Dangan designs for dedicated multirole anti ballistic or intrusion operations (not yet being used).

If I were you, I would stick the Russian SAMs and replace the fictional NS SAMs with RL SAM systems. Personally, if I were you, I would deploy both Russian and Western-European long-range, medium-range and short-range SAMs.
pseudo SPAAGs (i call them pseudo SPAAGs since the Vino (Fury) Type 3 SPAAG are not really SPAAGs)

Then it's called a self-propelled anti-aircraft system (SPAAS) since it combines both gun and missile.


I will have to keep them since some of the NS sams i've chosen pretty much have their own RL equivalent in terms of stats and form so it would be no different when i change it to a real life one. It increases options for the GS or operators to manually choose what is the appropriate interceptor to destroy the target in question. As for the SPAAG, i was about to phase it out but on further reading, i won't since i will find it very useful in the future. :p

Zhouran wrote:Also, Asigna why are all the MANPADS used by Agpalo and spec-ops only? It should also be used with infantry as well.


Yeah they are. But so rarely since the operations they do are rarely demanding in terms of surface to air coverage. And it is so rare that helicopters or other tilt rotor/gyro propelling aircraft or low speed hovering craft are being used by the enemy.
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:14 pm

Asigna wrote:As for the SPAAG, i was about to phase it out but on further reading, i won't since i will find it very useful in the future. :p

Decommissioning your SPAAS is a bad move. Modern SPAAG/SPAAS such as the Tunguska M1 are very helpful for armored columns since they provide mobile air-defense at a tactical level.
Asigna wrote:Yeah they are. But so rarely since the operations they do are rarely demanding in terms of surface to air coverage. And it is so rare that helicopters or other tilt rotor/gyro propelling aircraft or low speed hovering craft are being used by the enemy.

But still. Even if you have all the fighter jets and helicopters deployed, MANPADS are essential for infantry. They shouldn't be used rarely. They should be issued to every armored and mechanized infantry units your hukbo has. You want effective air-defense, then give armored units and mechanized infantry units their MANPADS. They would need it as well since it provides tactical air-defense against, let's say, an enemy attack helicopter appearing out of nowhere.

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Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:16 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Asigna wrote:As for the SPAAG, i was about to phase it out but on further reading, i won't since i will find it very useful in the future. :p

Decommissioning your SPAAS is a bad move. Modern SPAAG/SPAAS such as the Tunguska M1 are very helpful for armored columns since they provide mobile air-defense at a tactical level.
Asigna wrote:Yeah they are. But so rarely since the operations they do are rarely demanding in terms of surface to air coverage. And it is so rare that helicopters or other tilt rotor/gyro propelling aircraft or low speed hovering craft are being used by the enemy.

But still. Even if you have all the fighter jets and helicopters deployed, MANPADS are essential for infantry. They shouldn't be used rarely. They should be issued to every armored and mechanized infantry units your hukbo has. You want effective air-defense, then give armored units and mechanized infantry units their MANPADS. They would need it as well since it provides tactical air-defense against, let's say, an enemy attack helicopter appearing out of nowhere.

No i mean they are used rarely in situation. Like, even if we have MANPADs there is only a 1 in 100 chance that it is ever going to be used.
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:21 pm

Asigna wrote:No i mean they are used rarely in situation. Like, even if we have MANPADs there is only a 1 in 100 chance that it is ever going to be used.

I know that, but we all know it's better to be safe than sorry since, like what people say these days: "shit happens" :p

Also, since we've discussed about radars and air-defense, I think it's time for you to focus on another area: infantry

From warships to anti-ship missiles to radars and air-defense, it's time for the hukbo to listen to the soldiers in the field.

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Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:21 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Asigna wrote:No i mean they are used rarely in situation. Like, even if we have MANPADs there is only a 1 in 100 chance that it is ever going to be used.

I know that, but we all know it's better to be safe than sorry since, like what people say these days: "shit happens" :p

Also, since we've discussed about radars and air-defense, I think it's time for you to focus on another area: infantry

From warships to anti-ship missiles to radars and air-defense, it's time for the hukbo to listen to the soldiers in the field.

Indeed. :p
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
THE GREATER PHILIPPINE BAYAN
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THE HOMELAND TERRITORIES - foreign affairs
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Asigna wrote:
Zhouran wrote:I know that, but we all know it's better to be safe than sorry since, like what people say these days: "shit happens" :p

Also, since we've discussed about radars and air-defense, I think it's time for you to focus on another area: infantry

From warships to anti-ship missiles to radars and air-defense, it's time for the hukbo to listen to the soldiers in the field.

Indeed. :p

With your infantry soldiers, you can start by sharpening their swords (as in get some new tactical firearms)

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Postby Asigna » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:27 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Asigna wrote:Indeed. :p

With your infantry soldiers, you can start by sharpening their swords (as in get some new tactical firearms)

Speaking of fire arms, i admit i forgot something key. (i'll take it to the TGs for further elaboration)
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
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Postby Zhouran » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:30 pm

Asigna wrote:
Zhouran wrote:With your infantry soldiers, you can start by sharpening their swords (as in get some new tactical firearms)

Speaking of fire arms, i admit i forgot something key. (i'll take it to the TGs for further elaboration)

Actually, the Zhouranese won't sell any surplus equipment since foreign nations would see it as a form of military support, which means Zhouran will get dragged into the conflict.

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Postby Inyourfaceistan » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:53 pm

Wow I can't even keep up...

Expect a post in the morning...


It's not French,it's not Spanish,it's Inyurstan
"Inyourfaceistan" refers to my player/user name, "Inyursta" is my IC name. NOT INYURSTAN. IF YOU CALL INYURSTA "INYURSTAN" THEN IT SHOWS THAT YOU CANT READ. Just refer to me as IYF or Stan.

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Postby Asigna » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:24 am

Inyourfaceistan wrote:Wow I can't even keep up...

Expect a post in the morning...


Noted.
NS's resident Filipino patriot. May also be that weird Vietnamese guy whose name must not be spoken.

Erian: If you are gay (like me) and looking, PM me. ;/\) (SO I CAN PRAY YOUR SOUL BURNS IN HELL) Kekekekek. No straighty and no wamen. I want no pussycats.

The Filipino dude is a Mangotreestian, yes, he is a believer in the gospel of the mango tree. The one true religion.
Totalitarian Theocracy
THE GREATER PHILIPPINE BAYAN
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THE HOMELAND TERRITORIES - foreign affairs
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Inyourfaceistan
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Postby Inyourfaceistan » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:55 am

Asigna wrote:I lolled at Jorn being "accurate" (because its true, OTH systems are very unreliable) :p.

Accuracy for an OTH system is a matter of what it can turn into a pixel that represents something 5 - 30km from its actual position.
JORN can turn something with an RCS that almost no other OTH system can see into said undescriptive pixel.

And no, i'm not using OTH radar for this endeavor, i'm using a more accurate system.


Then how the hell do you expect to see the cruise missiles flying under the vision of your ground-based systems and dodging your AWACS patrols? (assuming you do have AWACS airborne, which was never mentioned)


First off, the conditions surrounding RV's navy is different from conditions surrounding mine. His only protection are his AWACs and it is highly doubtful it could field enough power to be able to detect a single stealth missile traveling alone. He doesn't have any more sophisticated infrastructure in his favor to allow him to detect enough, let alone track the missiles flying at subsonic speed. The moment they enter within terminal velocity, hence enabling more optimum view of the missiles from AWACs, it would be too late. Not to mention radar absorbent paint is part of the equation hence heavily reducing what may be left of the possible radar returns detected as a result of any attempt by AWACs to use lookdown methods to detect the missiles. RV has only one AWAC on each taskforce (IIRC) hence adding up to his problems. But i heavily invite him to shoot down said missiles if he still has a number of tricks in mind.


His SAM's, his ship's radar and his AWACS, even if they aren't anti-stealth (which is pretty lame of you to just assume so) are still in position to actually be able to bounce signals off of your missiles, because they are flying at an altitude where they are exposed to radar emissions outside of the critical source point. Additionally, because of altitude many of your missiles will be hit by radar from different angles, whereas the JASSM's I lobbed are only going to be seen from the front (the most RCS reduced angle) and mostl likely only in their terminal phase.

More importantly, a missile flying that fast is going to have a huge IR signature, stealth or not. RVN would likely have IR systems to pick them up at range, while my missiles are slower and will have a much smaller and easily reducible IR signature that again, will only be detected in their terminal phase.

First thing's first, do answer my question. Is this feature the terrain contour mapping that is present in Tomahawk missiles you're talking about?

Yes and sort-of.

Mid-Course Guidance for all (Inyurstan) missiles used in the attack is through TIMU, which works like GPS but uses internally-stored data so it doesn't need to rely on the satellite.
The Tomahawk missiles use TERCOM and the JASSM-ER (and LRASM) missiles use DSMAC. The latter use jam-resistant radar altimeters to fly at an almost sea-skimming altitude with ECM resistance.

Asigna wrote:You're all not listening were you (or reading is the correct term for a situation like this)? :p

Pls reread this. I beseech you. I need not to go through the trouble of having to explain things all over again.

And no, Zhouran's articles don't even apply since i'm using ground based static platforms not aircraft ones.


Please review the image I posted since you don't seem to understand why ground-based platforms are easily avoided by cruise missiles.

To repeat myself, it doesn't matter if you the best freaking radar in the world if the system still can physically bounce beams off of the target, it can't see the target.
This is why OTH and aircraft radar are necessary for early/long-range detection of cruise missiles...




P.S. Ironically, in your description you have actually made the position of the Asignese air defenses in Occupied Australia worse. When I planned the attack I was assuming you were using OTH and aircraft radar but damn, if I had known you were just using ground based radar I could have just used Tomahawks...


It's not French,it's not Spanish,it's Inyurstan
"Inyourfaceistan" refers to my player/user name, "Inyursta" is my IC name. NOT INYURSTAN. IF YOU CALL INYURSTA "INYURSTAN" THEN IT SHOWS THAT YOU CANT READ. Just refer to me as IYF or Stan.

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