NationStates Post-Modern Tech Community Thread

[Canton Empire]

I usually mark FTL travel as Future Tech. Like, in PMT it can be in development, but it can't be active.

I think anything from warp 1-3 can be PMT

[The Macabees]

I usually mark FTL travel as Future Tech. Like, in PMT it can be in development, but it can't be active.

I tend to agree. Controlled FTL is typically the border of FT.

[The Macabees]

Not sure that FTL is even needed in PMT. There are still all the planets in our solar system to conquer as well as the asteroid fields, the oort cloud, and the different moons of the planets.

I think it depends on what the player is trying to accomplish. Let's take Morrdh as an example. He's using an uncontrolled, natural warmhole to visit distant asteroids and planets -- but he's not exactly choosing where he's going. What I mean is this, if you set it up so it's kind of "your path of least resistance" to use primitive, uncontrolled FTL, I think it's okay. Especially if the end game is to have an awesome RP, where the setting is some distant body in space -- where the purpose of the RP isn't to "be better," but to have an awesome time with other players exploring an interesting concept.

[The Macabees]

This is a really awesome thread. As someone who's never written in the PMT Tech level, I guess my immediate question would be how best to start building a PMT-mythos or canon. Are there any particular pitfalls that a new writer to the PMT field should be wary of?

I'll start with the pitfalls, because I can't think of many, other than OOC-side issues that arise with divergence in motivations. But, I've read your RPs and I've seen you interact with other players -- your reputation precedes your. As far as OOC issues go, I think you're fine.

As far as canon goes, you know, I didn't develop my cannon thinking I was PMT. PMT is similar to FT in that's it's really all about exploring ideas. Sometimes a concept can't be explored in a MT setting in a fun way, or it would be more fun to do it a way that doesn't conform to " strict realism." For example, I wanted to explore the idea of closely integrated economies over long, NS-scale distances. At the distances our nations tend to be, even things like shipping goods by sea would be too expensive for countries very far apart from each other. The more inexpensive the good, the less likely it's to be shipped as distances increase (more expensive goods tend to be traded at longer distances because relative shipping costs are lower). And so, one way of bridging this problem is by using LEO/MEO/HEO flight (like hypersoar -- a theoretical tech. that's unlikely to see the day of light), and so GATA was born -- and I integrate it with my other RPs.

[Morrdh]

Not sure that FTL is even needed in PMT. There are still all the planets in our solar system to conquer as well as the asteroid fields, the oort cloud, and the different moons of the planets.

I think it depends on what the player is trying to accomplish. Let's take Morrdh as an example. He's using an uncontrolled, natural warmhole to visit distant asteroids and planets -- but he's not exactly choosing where he's going. What I mean is this, if you set it up so it's kind of "your path of least resistance" to use primitive, uncontrolled FTL, I think it's okay. Especially if the end game is to have an awesome RP, where the setting is some distant body in space -- where the purpose of the RP isn't to "be better," but to have an awesome time with other players exploring an interesting concept.

Granted I have a dedicated force called Pathfinders and a good few years to map out the wormholes and club together a rough timetable of when they are open, though I still don't have a route to Alpha Centuri.

Plus getting from A to B could be a case of going through E, C, Z and D first but even that isn't fixed as it could be different one week to the week (or even change daily). Navigation includes consulting a timetable and a delay of an hour or so could add days, weeks or even months to the journey. Communications is effectively limited to the speed of my fastest ship and timing/luck.

[The Macabees]

You also do a good job of balancing things out. You have a "primitive FTL," but, like your sig says, you have 1960s-tech avionics. You are a perfect example of how to use FTL in a PMT setting without it being two-dimensional.

[Vistora]

Okay, so, over in the REC, I set up a sort of informal working definition of the subject based not so much on technology, but narrative scale. I was wondering what you guys think of it, and if there is any advice you might have.

So... what is "PMT"? Though discussing the finer minutiae of this acronym is one of the purposes of the REC, there have been plenty of precedents established to build a reasonably coherent definition. First and foremost, it stands for Post-Modern Tech; it is a rank on a scaled continuum of technological levels a nation can use to get a bearing on the type of setting possessed both by themselves and by others. Filling the theoretical gap between the self-explanatory category of Modern Tech (MT), and the more ambiguously named Future Tech (FT), PMT must first be distinguished from both before its own full definition is established. Differentiating it from MT is fairly simple; technology featured in the setting must be more advanced, be it by years or centuries, than that available to human beings today. Separating it from the far blurrier FT category, however, is a trickier matter; though a fairly good heuristic has been established--Future Tech nations possess superluminal means of spacetravel, allowing for effective interstellar travel, while PMT nations do not)--this definition is by no means perfect. Technology is hardly a monolithic continuum, nor must it always be subject to the scrutiny of accurate scientific analysis; less important to establishing a definition for PMT is a hard-and-fast technological cutoff, versus a vast, sweeping panoply of technologies that best contribute to narratives on the smaller, more personal, more familiar scale of PMT, rather than the grand galaxy-spanning space operas claimed by FT.

Easily one of the cornerstones of a good PMT setting is the believable combination of futuristic technology with a society that still remarkably resembles ours; it is the conflict between contemporary attitudes and novel innovations that form the basis of many beloved works of fiction set in a PMT-esque setting. Cyberpunk and its similar derivatives are indisputably the best-established genres set squarely within PMT's purview, and can provide excellent examples of the technology one is likely to encounter in a PMT setting. Advanced new weapons, novel energy sources, and the advancement of space travel open up new avenues that may lead either to humanity's destruction or salvation, while artificial intelligence, transhumanism, eugenics, and the fading mystery of consciousness force us to ask "what does it mean to be human?" No matter what the setting or context, one of the most characteristic features of PMT stories are their location at these critical crossroads.

Again, what must be stressed is that neither scientific advancement nor realism are the most important metrics to consider when deliberating on a nation's status. A setting can range from that of the perfectly naturalistic (Bladerunner, Deus Ex, Neuromancer), to those featuring supernatural or pseudo-supernatural elements like psionics (Minority Report, Judge Dredd) to those outright exhibiting elements otherwise typical of fantasy settings (Shadowrun). Yet, despite the disparity in realism and advancement between these settings, they all have a certain aesthetic and theme in common; the struggle we face as technology increasingly begins to change us as much as we change it. Will such advancements lead to an idyllic utopia or a hellish dystopia? That remains to be seen. All that can be said is that the journey there will be one hell of a ride. This group's purpose is merely to peer a little ways into that exciting future.

[The Macabees]

I like it.

Adding to cyberpunk, I'd cite the "hard sci-fi" literature that's set in the middle or end of the current century. This includes recent books like Arkwright, Aurora (both of which are about early star ships and generation ships), and Seveneves (nominated this year for the Hugo). And, Tau Zero, from the 1970s, falls in the same category (one of the best books I've ever read, btw). The genre explores early headway into space exploration by humans, and most of them discuss the social problems that will come with this (rather than just the technological problems). In a similar vein are books like The Dark Forest by Liu Cixin, which explores near future human society fighting an alien society that's an entire magnitude more advanced than Earth.

This brings up another point. What's interesting about all the books is that the technology is just for the setting. The real question all these stories answer is how human society responds to these challenges. For example, in Seveneves the moon explodes and the fragments create a ring around the Earth that slowly descends into the atmosphere, incinerating the Earth's surface. Before that happens, Earth builds an extension to the ISS, and adds several free-floating arks, and the book looks at the friction between a segregated population -- where only the most necessary people are allowed to live in the ISS quasi-permanently, with everyone else living in the very constricting arcs. Similarly, Aurora looks at the social tensions within generation ships themselves, and shows how these are often more difficult to surmount than the technological problems.

This speaks to how I see PMT, and I'm glad that there's a lot of influence from the cyberpunk genre, because it goes to show what a great PMT RP might look like -- one that uses technology as a setting, rather than the topic, as a means of exploring ideas/problems that aren't possible -- or as fun to explore -- in a MT setting

[UniversalCommons]

You don't really need FTL to get to another star system. You need patience and planning. Lots of planning to move a really big hollowed out asteroid. Generation ships are not an impossibility. Nuclear thermal or fusion. thermal rockets to start. Or if you are really out there Orion nuclear bomb power.

[Roborea]

You don't really need FTL to get to another star system. You need patience and planning.

Or a solar sail and a really powerful laser.

[The Macabees]

An incredibly powerful microwave beam could work too.

[Vistora]

An incredibly powerful microwave beam could work too.

Yeah, having looked deeply into that method when setting up Novaluna, I managed to encounter in real numbers what many intuitively figure. A gigawatt laser would only provide a radiative force of seven newtons.

[United World Order]

I'd suggest looking into Teslas more darker projects.

[The Macabees]

Probably 100+ terawatt range for the most basic starship (unmanned). Edit: definitely pmt stuff.

[Vistora]

Probably 100+ terawatt range for the most basic starship (unmanned). Edit: definitely pmt stuff.

Ehhh... sure. I guess that's up to the canon-creator. I'm a bit of a realism-monger, so those numbers make me wince

[Escalan Corps-Star Island]

An incredibly powerful microwave beam could work too.

Something else these can be quite useful for is reliable transmission of power from orbital solar arrays. Sure, you have to put it over a desert for decent efficiency, but the implications for energy portfolios are fascinating.

[Haishan]

Related. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXeUkrlxQ98

There is also Momentum Limited Orion design, going for 3.3% speed of light as per wikipedia.

On beam propulsion for interstellar travel, what if you use the solar energy itself to do work? Focus it somehow into a fine point and accelerate away.

[UniversalCommons]

Solar power could power a laser of large magnitude. If you automated the process to produce solar concentrating mirrors and used a type of self replicating machine to make huge thin mirrors from asteroid material, it would be an interesting project.

[UniversalCommons]

An incredibly powerful microwave beam could work too.

Something else these can be quite useful for is reliable transmission of power from orbital solar arrays. Sure, you have to put it over a desert for decent efficiency, but the implications for energy portfolios are fascinating.

A near space solar platform might work better, no need to escape the gravity well. Float it up high, then bring it down for collection and maintenance. Also, high altitude wind platforms would work. You could even combine the two. You could even use high altitude platforms for radar, astronomy, or stratalite functions. Near space is wide open for development.

[The Macabees]

On beam propulsion for interstellar travel, what if you use the solar energy itself to do work? Focus it somehow into a fine point and accelerate away.

One idea is to used a phased array microwave satellite to collect the sun's energy and transmit it to the ship.

[Haishan]

Something else these can be quite useful for is reliable transmission of power from orbital solar arrays. Sure, you have to put it over a desert for decent efficiency, but the implications for energy portfolios are fascinating.

There were two types of power transmissions investigated for space borne solar power system (SPS) architecture. One is laser-based and another is microwave based. Considering you're delivering this beam of energy toward the ground, it's easy to see that microwave is a preferred option since you can spread out the beam to safe levels.

There is no desert needed for it. There's only concern on power density per m2 given whatever you're transmitting will hit anything that happen to fly within the LOS of the transmission (which may mean birds to occasional aeroplanes). On internet, there's quite a bit of proposal on these and they illustrate the point better.

A near space solar platform might work better, no need to escape the gravity well. Float it up high, then bring it down for collection and maintenance. Also, high altitude wind platforms would work. You could even combine the two. You could even use high altitude platforms for radar, astronomy, or stratalite functions. Near space is wide open for development.

There is a reason why most SPS proposal propose to put SPS on geostationary orbit which is....sunlight availability all day long, all year long. When you put solar collection at the suggested altitude, it means the platform will see passing of the Sun which in turn hurts overall energy collection efficiency and makes it no better than solar panels on the ground. Stratospheric platform may augment communications but for collecting solar power, putting a geostationary SPS makes more sense for around the clock availability.

Solar power could power a laser of large magnitude. If you automated the process to produce solar concentrating mirrors and used a type of self replicating machine to make huge thin mirrors from asteroid material, it would be an interesting project.

There are proposals on solar-pumped lasers floating in the internet somewhere and so it could theoretically work. To power a foundry that makes self-replicating robots though? In my opinion, pure von Neumann machine remain stuff of FT as robots can break down and accumulate error over time.

One idea is to used a phased array microwave satellite to collect the sun's energy and transmit it to the ship.

In my opinion, it's better if the solar energy is concentrated into one point using lenses and then use that concentrated light to propel a ship directly. No conversions needed. In other words little energy loss compared to trying to convert solar energy into electricity and then convert it to microwave.

[The Macabees]

What are the most inefficient and ridiculous, but still cool ideas people have had?

In A Passion Play, I had a submarine who's entire purpose was to carry a massive railgun. It would surface and fire, with the intent to scare -- like the Paris Gun, but submersible! Of course, there's VLS and all that -- but, c'mon, a giant, railgun totting submarine is cool! Of course, it was sunk early in the RP by an Izistani battleship it decided to take on (which you would expect).

[Greater Themis]

What are the most inefficient and ridiculous, but still cool ideas people have had?

In A Passion Play, I had a submarine who's entire purpose was to carry a massive railgun. It would surface and fire, with the intent to scare -- like the Paris Gun, but submersible! Of course, there's VLS and all that -- but, c'mon, a giant, railgun totting submarine is cool! Of course, it was sunk early in the RP by an Izistani battleship it decided to take on (which you would expect).

When I was still a ridiculously young one here, many moons ago, I had some crazy ideas with my other nation you'll be aware of. The most crazy of them, which I took forward quite a bit, was using a massive radio antenna complex to destroy communications, change the weather, and blow up missiles and satellites. Take HAARP, and put the output of about 1GW worth of primitive nuclear reactors through it. More if you include the accumulator banks. This was more retro-PMT iron sky type tech rather than classic PMT, but certainly worth a shout. The most I did with it, other than occasionally shorting out spy satellites, was use it to jam every signal in the region with the sound of children screaming...

The other retro-PMT things are a bit more feasible in the modern day. Nukes chained up on unstable landslips under the ocean, nuclear pulsejet drones designed to scan cities with blinding LASERs, RAILGUNZ, and orbital bombardment with tungsten spheres. But I've moved past those days, however unfortunately...

[United World Order]

Railguns replacing naval guns. Discuss go go go

[Vistora]

Railguns replacing naval guns. Discuss go go go

Oh god, Frenco and I had this discussion before.

What must be first acknowledged and addressed is the reason why naval guns have declined so precipitously in the first place. This reason comes twofold: strike aircraft based on carriers are far more nimble and powerful when attacking surface targets than massive naval guns, while cruise missiles based on destroyers provide far and away more range, accuracy, and power than shells.

The question is: can railguns solve not only the issues found with naval guns, but those present with current warship armaments as well?