Forgotten Eon [Dark Age/Fantasy World][Closed]

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

How did we go from turtle ships to iron clads?

Magic

[The Akasha Colony]

@Akasha -- Let's not forget fire is a dangerous servant; ships delivering the stuff were often ignited and destroyed themselves.

It isn't an exclusive danger. It's true of every ship to ever carry a gunpowder armament, from late medieval warships armed with primitive cannons to modern warships filled with incendiary missile propellants and warheads. Nothing is "safe" when talking about the ocean anyway.

[Great Houses of Xie]

@inoroth: it's definitely not a coastal city. The capitol is nestled in one of the valleys up in the mountains

[Achesia]

@Akasha -- Let's not forget fire is a dangerous servant; ships delivering the stuff were often ignited and destroyed themselves.

It isn't an exclusive danger. It's true of every ship to ever carry a gunpowder armament, from late medieval warships armed with primitive cannons to modern warships filled with incendiary missile propellants and warheads. Nothing is "safe" when talking about the ocean anyway.

Very true, but given the very nature of fire, the fact it would be a newer implement of war, and the level of ability to control it in these times it would be a much greater risk than the ships of the modern era having a missile explode.

[Achesia]

How did we go from turtle ships to iron clads?

Magic

Whoa now this is low fantasy

[Great Houses of Xie]

Fire is not new to warfare, even from a medieval standpoint. Humans have been using it for thousands of years. It would be like saying spears are "new."

[Inoroth]

@Achesia --

How did we go from turtle ships to iron clads?

A natural progression of armor discussion

@Xia --

@inoroth: it's definitely not a coastal city. The capitol is nestled in one of the valleys up in the mountains

Is there a more accessible city for diplomatic purposes?

@All RE: fire and danger --

It isn't an exclusive danger. It's true of every ship to ever carry a gunpowder armament, from late medieval warships armed with primitive cannons to modern warships filled with incendiary missile propellants and warheads. Nothing is "safe" when talking about the ocean anyway.

True that gunpowder is dangerous, but it's not the same as Greek Fire (if for no other reason than because gunpowder can be effectively doused by water). Tech improves from oil slick and fire to more stable saltpeter and charcoal, things are safer. It's like saying just because modern firearms occasionally have misfires, they are no different than the misfires of older matchlocks -- different scale.

[IshCong]

@Xia --

That.

Ah... As for that Taniar diplomat, did you have any place in mind that you were sending him? ie, the capitol or the current base of the western army? I'm guessing because he's getting sent real late, the diplomat is rushing it with a small retinue?

I assumed capital, traveling all the way by ship if it's a coastal city.

Would I be correct in presuming that your ambassador would travel to Narrak by way of the river?
Related, I wanted to name the two rivers within my territory and was thinking of calling them the River Maneth (southern) and Eren River (northern). But then, I think you mentioned naming them as well? There could be local names that just differ, or maybe it is called something different after the two branches merge?

[Arenumberg]

Finally got around to the post for Bulgislavia with a nod to Zarhad's naval deployments, with a few in character reasons at least, so theres that - aside from the Emperor going balls deep is there anything else I should be aware of?

Also, as I never got around to it, most of Solvaldir's forces will be mustered levy, think "adequate" pikemen and what have you (60~), with a few forces from the faith (10%~) (a mixture of heavy infantry and archers), some ranger lords and cavalry (10%~, archers and skirmish/medium cavalry) and about 15%~ shield maidens/huscarls with a few heavy cavalry at around 5%.

[Seba Kemet]

I considered a huge argument, but I'm already posting way more OOC than I am IC, which is something I prefer to avoid. Simply put:

My point here is that naval warfare where everybody's slinging fire around like it's no big deal has essentially turned the whole affair into one big pile of mutually assured destruction. There was a good reason naval battles in this period were mostly fought by boarding action. While incendiaries were well known, their use was limited by the fact that they often presented as much danger to the vessel using them as they did to any given foe. Especially with highly volatile and difficult to extinguish substances like greek fire.

I think serious consideration should be given to limiting the use of fire-based weapons in naval combat. They can exist, but reenactments of the Battle of the Blackwater should be the exception, not the rule.

Take that as you will, one way or the other.

[Dbrought]

my only two cents on the naval subject (yay being in the north and mostly avoiding this! ) something also to consider about the destroy vs boarding strategies. Boats are huge assets from the standpoint of both construction, and the possible cargo they may be carrying. While ships certainly will have weapons, keep in mind that in many cases in history nations sought to capture their enemies' traders, warships, and privateers rather than destroy them.

[Achesia]

my only two cents on the naval subject (yay being in the north and mostly avoiding this! ) something also to consider about the destroy vs boarding strategies. Boats are huge assets from the standpoint of both construction, and the possible cargo they may be carrying. While ships certainly will have weapons, keep in mind that in many cases in history nations sought to capture their enemies' traders, warships, and privateers rather than destroy them.

Very true since it would take allot of resources to construct ships. Both from lumber, labor, and capital to do so. Most ships doubled as commercial ships as well.

[Gunrado]

Whelp, I'm back, after finally getting settled in back to college. I'll catch up through the thread and have a post up soon.

[Inoroth]

Whelp, I'm back, after finally getting settled in back to college. I'll catch up through the thread and have a post up soon.

Welcome back!

[Great Houses of Xie]

@inoroth: whoops, didnt see your question earlier. The easiest diplomatic city would be the town on the tani border where the western army is amassing, which is why i pointed it out earlier.

[Achesia]

Whelp, I'm back, after finally getting settled in back to college. I'll catch up through the thread and have a post up soon.

Yay my vassal is back!

[Inoroth]

Just to be sure that I understand OOC -- If Taniar does let King Norcoss through, Xia will use it as a cause beli, and if they do not, then obviously they would be at war with the Empire...

Assuming that, what if they suggested having King Norcoss' army just skirt their northern border, have a Tani army 'go before them' and clear out some of the trolls in their path. King Norcoss and his army would move somewhat slower than if he went through the southern roads, and the journey wouldn't be quite as pleasant, but it would keep Taniar from being implicated.

[Great Houses of Xie]

Well, having the Tani army clear the way is clearly aiding the Empire army, so....

EDIT: at worst, the Shie would interpret the situation as Tani joining the Empire in its intended invasion of Shie.

[Dbrought]

@Inoroth I'll throw in cookies to the deal. side with me and the empire

[Achesia]

Well, having the Tani army clear the way is clearly aiding the Empire army, so....

EDIT: at worst, the Shie would interpret the situation as Tani joining the Empire in its intended invasion of Shie.

Who would Tani fear more, the Empire or Shie...

[Great Houses of Xie]

That is, indeed, a very good question.

[Inoroth]

*Ignore*

[Inoroth]

Well, having the Tani army clear the way is clearly aiding the Empire army, so....

EDIT: at worst, the Shie would interpret the situation as Tani joining the Empire in its intended invasion of Shie.

It's one of those grey areas, though -- the Tani definitely have a cause beli against the trolls, and they have raised levies for as-of-yet undeclared purposes, so they could simply claim that their intention from the beginning was to launch a campaign against the trolls (and for added effect, could even invite the Shie to help -- it is their problem too, right?). Then if they are invaded by the Shie, they can claim victimhood, join with Carsepolis' navy, possibly sway the Korrss by offering trade deals and convincing them that the Dai Shie in control of both side of the Cut is BAAAAAAD for everyone (they don't as yet know Korrss is helping the Shie, and even still, this might be enough to convince them to reconsider).

Let's face it, Dai Shie is a relatively new state, and if it's first actions on the international scene are attacking both of it's smaller neighbors and attempting to dominate a vital trade link, that's going to set off warning flags for the other nations... Ait kinda begs the question 'what else will these guys try and take?' Plus, being newly unified, there are probably still several states who would try and assert their independence if and when they deemed the time to be right -- and the Shie fighting a three-front war against three or four powers would be the ideal moment... You honestly would probably face a similar situation to revolutionary France's right after the terror -- still trying to quell rebels while also fighting all your neighbors at once.

[Great Houses of Xie]

It has been something on the order of 20 years since official end of the unification. That's been plenty of time to weed out those who were rebellious; sure, there were some who were quite angry....mebbe a decade ago. All that's left, now, are those who are veterans of those anti-rebellion efforts, leading to a very large, militarized state that is currently seeking an outlet for the left-over aggression. Using the French Revolution as an example since you pointed it out, at this point in time, we're already well into Napoleon's conquests of neighboring states.

As for "relatively new," that's not true. It underwent a revolution to switch from a feudal state to a centralized imperial state. Using the French Revolution example, again, France was a state pre-Revolution, just different.

Again, it's assumed that these aggressions are somehow its first diplomatic endeavors. They aren't, as demonstrated by the defensive alliance with Korss which is, now, morphing into something more.

Yes, Taniar can claim victimhood. It's up to the states involved as to whether or not they treat Taniar as a victim (I pointed out how the Tani could probably expect the Shie to react, which is to say, not very well), not you. Likewise with the warning flags. Though, on your scenario involving a Tani army marching in front of Empire army, it hasn't even been posted in the IC, so it's all hypothetical. Posting in the IC gets concrete answers pretty quickly.

But, let's take a brief look at your argument. The whole region has activated troops and have obviously been spoiling for a fight, marching around pretty aggressively. Is someone going to believe that Taniar raised its levies to fight the trolls and not as a response to the militarization of its neighbors? And that the Shie would consider joining a campaign against trolls while the Empire's army is marching towards Shie territory? Yes, it would've probably been something of a grey area...had Taniar been the only one militarized and the Empire not been making its various moves. I feel like expecting Tani's neighbors to believe such a thing as the Tani simply wanting to fight trolls is probably going to be insulting to whomever those expectations are conveyed; this sentiment is my opinion only and should not be interpreted to be that I expect others to feel the same way.

And then you talk of Carsepolis as if it's big and scary. It's a city-state and smaller than Taniar, who isn't much bigger. Using the French example, it's nothing like fighting Spain, Britain, Austria, and the Germans states all at the same time, all of whom were substantial powers of the time. It reminds me more of Rome and Carthage, wherein Carthage would use local barbarian allies to help fight against Rome.

EDIT: Even the Carthage/Rome example falls pretty flat, given the two were considered relatively equal (I'm aware they weren't really), while Shie and the Empire have something of a slight (haha, understatement) disparity.

[Thrashia]

Taniar should be able to claim that they could not resist the Empire's crossing through its country. Shie should understand that, even if they don't like it. Depending on how things go, Shie could stand to make tighter deals with Taniar in helping to cut off supply lines, etc...