A dirty colonial war (MT/OOC/INVITE ONLY)

[Riysa]

From that I gather over the net, superdreadnoughts and supercarriers are becoming popular, and are considered MT, if I'm not mistaken.

If you want an example, go visit Halcyon Arms (Pharthan).

I haven't heard of a realistic superdreadnought design, and Halcyon Arms is no where near realistic MT

[New Aeyariss]

From that I gather over the net, superdreadnoughts and supercarriers are becoming popular, and are considered MT, if I'm not mistaken.

If you want an example, go visit Halcyon Arms (Pharthan).

There are few schools around here:

1) Dienstadi / NS MT, which is basically PMT under MT name, claiming big budgets of nations allow them advanced tech.

2) SACTO / HARD MT, which claims that only technology now in service is MT.

There is no clear definition of MT around .

[Esalonia]

NS MT for the win!!

BTW, I'm an NS MT'er.

[New Aeyariss]

NS MT for the win!!

BTW, I'm an NS MT'er.

Well, long ago me and Riysa had no problem with wiping out whole Lyran skyguard batteries without single loss... so I really encourage you to check what you are really using .

[Argentarino]

My main ORBAT is in my national factbook.

I think I need to discuss the size of the population with Aeyariss/Nihon in order to come up with something accurate for the Jaharnapuran Colonial Defense Force (JCDF).

He should hopefully be on soon. I'm working on the Sultanate's ORBAT right now, so hopefully I'll have that done by tonight.

Will Argentarino proper be sending reinforcements in, or will the JCDF take the brunt of the fighting?

I'm sending in 50,000 Argentarinoan troops, which I will take from my main ORBAT, but JCDF will be taking the brunt of the fighting, seeing as I am positioning them in the border regions.

[Riysa]

NS MT for the win!!

BTW, I'm an NS MT'er.

Do you have info about your PMT stuff?

[Esalonia]

NS MT for the win!!

BTW, I'm an NS MT'er.

Well, long ago me and Riysa had no problem with wiping out whole Lyran skyguard batteries without single loss... so I really encourage you to check what you are really using .

Wha-what? An entire Skyguard battery? Well, I'd be totes OK with that-Lyras is never unbeatable. He is, if you can find his weakness. Actually a very obvious weakness is that his military is too expensive to keep alive. Once you destroy his economic assets, he's done for. But not yet-he's got a big ring of big allies.

If anything, the hardware in NS MT should come to real life, because why? It's better than real-life hardware.

[Esalonia]

NS MT for the win!!

BTW, I'm an NS MT'er.

Do you have info about your PMT stuff?

In my factbook.

[New Aeyariss]

Well, long ago me and Riysa had no problem with wiping out whole Lyran skyguard batteries without single loss... so I really encourage you to check what you are really using .

Wha-what? An entire Skyguard battery? Well, I'd be totes OK with that-Lyras is never unbeatable. He is, if you can find his weakness. Actually a very obvious weakness is that his military is too expensive to keep alive. Once you destroy his economic assets, he's done for. But not yet-he's got a big ring of big allies.

If anything, the hardware in NS MT should come to real life, because why? It's better than real-life hardware.

We were not fighting Lyras... I was implying that this was Skyguard from Lyran Arms not RL SAM named skyguard.

[Riysa]

Well, long ago me and Riysa had no problem with wiping out whole Lyran skyguard batteries without single loss... so I really encourage you to check what you are really using .

Wha-what? An entire Skyguard battery? Well, I'd be totes OK with that-Lyras is never unbeatable. He is, if you can find his weakness. Actually a very obvious weakness is that his military is too expensive to keep alive. Once you destroy his economic assets, he's done for. But not yet-he's got a big ring of big allies.

If anything, the hardware in NS MT should come to real life, because why? It's better than real-life hardware.

So, why isn't it in real life? You think that RL engineers and strategists are less intelligent than your average NSer?

[Esalonia]

Wha-what? An entire Skyguard battery? Well, I'd be totes OK with that-Lyras is never unbeatable. He is, if you can find his weakness. Actually a very obvious weakness is that his military is too expensive to keep alive. Once you destroy his economic assets, he's done for. But not yet-he's got a big ring of big allies.

If anything, the hardware in NS MT should come to real life, because why? It's better than real-life hardware.

So, why isn't it in real life? You think that RL engineers and strategists are less intelligent than your average NSer?

I'm not implying that NSers are smarter than RL engineers and strategists. I just said it's better than RL hardware, but I forgot to add "That is, if it's made by a mentor."

[Riysa]

So, why isn't it in real life? You think that RL engineers and strategists are less intelligent than your average NSer?

I'm not implying that NSers are smarter than RL engineers and strategists. I just said it's better than RL hardware, but I forgot to add "That is, if it's made by a mentor."

That's exactly what your implying by your statement.

[Esalonia]

I'm not implying that NSers are smarter than RL engineers and strategists. I just said it's better than RL hardware, but I forgot to add "That is, if it's made by a mentor."

That's exactly what your implying by your statement.

Oh. Sorry. In fact, NS has been exploring a whole host of crazy ideas on military hardware.

[Yalos]

So, why isn't it in real life? You think that RL engineers and strategists are less intelligent than your average NSer?

I'm not implying that NSers are smarter than RL engineers and strategists. I just said it's better than RL hardware, but I forgot to add "That is, if it's made by a mentor."

You realize that if it doesn't exist, there is likely a good reason why. Military developers aren't just stupid or uncreative, you know. Lyran tech is not only too expensive for be made, in any shape or form combat ready IRL, but also really impractical and technologically impossible in other cases.

This is a tag.

[Esalonia]

I'm not implying that NSers are smarter than RL engineers and strategists. I just said it's better than RL hardware, but I forgot to add "That is, if it's made by a mentor."

You realize that if it doesn't exist, there is likely a good reason why. Military developers aren't just stupid or uncreative, you know. Lyran tech is not only too expensive for be made, in any shape or form combat ready IRL, but also really impractical and technologically impossible in other cases.

This is a tag.

Thanks for the tip. How about arsenal ships, for one?

[Riysa]

You realize that if it doesn't exist, there is likely a good reason why. Military developers aren't just stupid or uncreative, you know. Lyran tech is not only too expensive for be made, in any shape or form combat ready IRL, but also really impractical and technologically impossible in other cases.

This is a tag.

Thanks for the tip. How about arsenal ships, for one?

Its a concept, but I personally don't see the value. Putting all your eggs into one basket is generally a bad idea, especially due to the lethality of modern anti-ship missiles. A single missile can easily kill any ship, and if you look back at the Falklands, the Exocet that sunk the HMS Sheffield didn't even detonate; in that case, it was pure kinetic energy. For the same cost as an arsenal ship, you can have multiple smaller ships, which are more effective.

[Lyras]

To Yalos:
I disagree with your statement here:

You realize that if it doesn't exist, there is likely a good reason why. Military developers aren't just stupid or uncreative, you know. Lyran tech is not only too expensive for be made, in any shape or form combat ready IRL, but also really impractical and technologically impossible in other cases.

This is a tag.

though, of course, I would. Military developers (a good number of which I have met, or have ongoing friendships with through Australia's Defence Science and Technology Organisation or CSIRO) are hamstrung by things like budget constraints and manpower limitations, and work through the logical lens of their host country's strategic aims and objectives. Also, the very finite and very clearly defined boundaries of our reality mean that certain hypothetical designs aren't needed.

However, on NationStates, our design parameters (not to mention threat level) are very different. Why build an unlimited range bomber in RL, when we can already get almost anywhere with one and a bit tanks of fuel? On NS, with multiple double-digit-billion nations, we can see that range issues are blowing out... so, designers on NS, like, say, me, design often with an eye towards nationstates-specific issues. Like range. And hyper-militarised neighbours. And enormous budgets which most of us have.

So my tech is expensive, but sometimes very close to what designers have in mind (and this I know because I am talking to them) or put together in areas of technology that have no necessarily been explored or developed as thoroughly in RL as they can and/or should be here.

Practical?

I was an Australian Army combat officer for seven years. I design for combat effectiveness as paramount.

Happy to take questions.

Sorry to butt in to your ooc.

[Yalos]

To Yalos:
I disagree with your statement here:

You realize that if it doesn't exist, there is likely a good reason why. Military developers aren't just stupid or uncreative, you know. Lyran tech is not only too expensive for be made, in any shape or form combat ready IRL, but also really impractical and technologically impossible in other cases.

This is a tag.

though, of course, I would. Military developers (a good number of which I have met, or have ongoing friendships with through Australia's Defence Science and Technology Organisation or CSIRO) are hamstrung by things like budget constraints and manpower limitations, and work through the logical lens of their host country's strategic aims and objectives. Also, the very finite and very clearly defined boundaries of our reality mean that certain hypothetical designs aren't needed.

However, on NationStates, our design parameters (not to mention threat level) are very different. Why build an unlimited range bomber in RL, when we can already get almost anywhere with one and a bit tanks of fuel? On NS, with multiple double-digit-billion nations, we can see that range issues are blowing out... so, designers on NS, like, say, me, design often with an eye towards nationstates-specific issues. Like range. And hyper-militarised neighbours. And enormous budgets which most of us have.

So my tech is expensive, but sometimes very close to what designers have in mind (and this I know because I am talking to them) or put together in areas of technology that have no necessarily been explored or developed as thoroughly in RL as they can and/or should be here.

Practical?

I was an Australian Army combat officer for seven years. I design for combat effectiveness as paramount.

Happy to take questions.

Sorry to butt in to your ooc.

Except we aren't using the lol-wank stats you do, nor the giantass budgets, or the wholly unrealistic populations for any of those matters. Many people try to RP with realistic RL stats--not border-line wanking stats of 22 billion.

Thanks for trying to offer insight as to why you feel it necessary to design your tech--and normally, I would agree with your points--but it's really not appreciated here. We don't even use gameside stats, which puts this point to moot, and it doesn't change the fact that I challenge the wisdom and practicability of a design such as the Longsword, which is nothing short of an excuse to design a giant, useless battleship.

And anybody who needs to project force at such distances needs to rethink their foreign policy, in my humble opinion. A single nation shouldn't/can't have that kind of reach. It's also quite impractical, and often not even applicable for nations that focus on regional diplomacy.

Thanks for trying to educate us about the differences imposed by the nature of NS. I understand that you may wish to defend your work, but you make the mistake of assuming that we all RP with the unrealistic and ridiculous stats given by the site. You also assume that we all want, and are willing to fork over the cash necessary to have a multi-regional reach, especially when these conditions may no longer even be the norm on II. Pardes and Atlas leap to mind, as well as Conerllia.

There are entire regions, many of them closed world (or similar in that aspect) that operate with pops that don't each into the several billions, and that don't need a ridiculous range. So, I stand by my point that it's impractical, needless and, in many cases, impossible expensive to implement and develop, especially for a nation that isn't using gamestats.\

Again, thanks for your attempt to educate us, but its really all moot anyways.

[Riysa]

Thanks for coming here Lyras, and definitely I understand defending your designs, but echoing Yalos above, I must disagree with the points you've raised. Yalos already covered a lot of the economic/political stuff, so I'll try to limit myself to science and tech.

In regards to funding, money will help only so much. I should know this; my livelihood depends on how generous the NIH feels towards my PI's lab. If a project is underfunded (ie. unable to run even all of the basic procedures), then obviously it will certainly help. If a project is already fully funded, then extra money will help them to a small extent (ie. run slightly more advanced procedures, such as using PacBio sequencing machines instead of 454 sequencing machines) but it won't go that far. If a project is eating up funding beyond what is expected to be needed, then there's something wrong with that project and it should be investigated.

Now, lets talk about designs. Yes, there are ton of designs in real life that got trashed and a ton of designs in people's minds that never see the light of day, but that doesn't make it modern tech. For example, in a PMT RP I played in recently, I used an engineered Yersinia pestis strain which was resistant to pretty much any known antibiotic. Now, as a microbiologist, does this work conceptually? Yes it can, because its based on known concepts, much like the concepts of your friends. Could this work in a modern tech setting? No. There are several challenges behind that which can't be overcome with RL biotechnology and genetic engineering, without going into details. Therefore, while I'd definitely have no problem making it part of my arsenal in, say, 2030/2040, 2015 is not the place for it.

As for efficiency, the points you raised are that they're excellent in a futuristic setting, or what is known as "PMT" here on NS. I understand if you disagree with me, but I find that your designs are a jumble of as much technology as possible. How else do you, for example, get a tank that costs more than some modern aircraft? I can understand the appeal of having a tank that has a large caliber ETC gun with a full EW suite, surface and air search radar, SAMs, and WiFi internet, but I don't find that efficient. Lets see what we can buy for the price of one 35 million dollar tank:

~3 Leopard 2A6s
+1 Pantsir-S1

If we tolerate an extra 1-2 million dollars, then we can add an SPN-4 to the mix for medium range ECM (~50 km if my memory serves me right). If we wanted to go over a bit into the realm of around 39-40 million, we could add an extra Leopard, or an entire company of SPN-4s, etc. So, tying into what Yalos said, your stuff is efficient if you calculate it based on your unlimited NS world, but its terribly inefficient if you set yourself in a realistic setting.

Lastly, Lyras, this has kind of bugged me for a while - why spider silk, of all things? That's inefficient as heck.

[Lyras]

Economically/politically, as I read it, Yalos' point is 'we pop-cap, so the range and resources basis of many aspects of Lyran hardware are not usable, so the designs are not feasible'.

If that is your position, then I understand where you are coming from, in many cases. Within a limited-population setting, Dragonhawks and Longswords will certainly not be your thing.

However, that doesn't mean that Skyguards don't function, radars don't work, or that the science is mistaken wrong, although the example Riysa gave for development of synthetic bacteria is an interesting one. It might mean that the selection of hardware is inappropriate for the setting, which is understandable. Many small arms will be more-or-less identical (and very much designed from my personal preferences and experiences - I trained with bullpups, for instance, so tend to design in that manner) regardless of size-of-country/region/world-setting.

When it comes to pricey tanks, yes, some are pricey. It was mainly due to the expense of the carbon fibre wrapping of the barrel, though I am increasingly of the opinion that I OVERstated the price there, and that carbon fibre is likely not as expensive as I'd been lead to believe, especially given traditional NS-scale production runs. But that's, in a sense, by-the-by.

Let's say, however, that it's 2:1, pricewise, for the sake of the argument. There's one important point, though...

It's still one tank.
So your tank platoon vs my tank platoon, is a likely win to mine... who will then go on to win the next one... and likely the next one.

Unless numerical superiority can be brought to bear at a given point, which is a tactical matter. Sure, it's not the be-all-and-end-all in the way that some folks use it, but cost-per-unit for military hardware is also not the only economic calculator either. The crew's training, and capacity for re-use, as it were, can be a factor, as can the importance of winning a battle, where an increase in up-front costs may mean not losing the entire investment.


It's somewhat moot, as Yalos indicated, if the preconditions for the design aren't met, though I don't find non-population capped to be inherently more or less realistic (save for the 'is it closer to Earth' measurement, as none of our brainchild-states actually exist), though do aim for consistency within the setting, and consistency with physics, and combat effectiveness.



And spidersilk... one could write articles. It's awesome stuff, on many levels. But I lack the urge to detail them at the moment, to be honest. Perhaps another time.

[North Yemen-]

My whole point was based off of pop-cap. I concede that if a state like Lyras were to exist IRL, it most certainly would have access to the technology and funs. However, I innately find nations like Lyras to be impossible, simply because of the sheer size and bureaucratic mess necessary to run such a nation. That's why I say 'impossible.' It really should not exist IRL, and certainly not in the terms of NS.

Anyways, thanks for taking our points into consideration. Just try to realize that for players like myself, Riysa, and perhaps a good half of II, your technology simply should and cannot be used, or even exist.

[Taelete]

Guys, something needs to happen here or this RP will die out.

[Argentarino]

Guys, something needs to happen here or this RP will die out.

We're all a bit busy. I will try to put something up in response to a few things, maybe leave something open for a situation to happen. But I have a midterm exam coming up, so I can't post soon (i.e., I may not be able to get a full post up until later this week).

[Riysa]

I also kinda think we need a map, though didn't we have one before?

[Argentarino]

I also kinda think we need a map, though didn't we have one before?

I don't think we have a good map.